VP 'Double Up' feature till just before handpay?

you have freeplay but the casino's best vp is 98.x% or less.
the vp machines have the double up feature on winning hands.

double up = no house edge

keep doing the double up till the next one is a hand pay.
ie: Quads = $250. Win Double up #1 = $500. Win Double up #2 = $1000. Stop because the next double up gets you a tax form

You either walk away with $0 from the freeplay or at least 1 almost handpays.
fun if you're into High variance.

Any holes in my strategy?
What do you think?

Quote: 100xOdds

you have freeplay but the casino's best vp is 98.x% or less.
the vp machines have the double up feature on winning hands.

double up = no house edge

keep doing the double up till the next one is a hand pay.
ie: Quads = $250. Win Double up #1 = $500. Win Double up #2 = $1000. Stop because the next double up gets you a tax form

You either walk away with $0 from the freeplay or at least 1 almost handpays.
fun if you're into High variance.

Any holes in my strategy?
What do you think?

I don't see any holes in your strategy as long as you don't mind the possibility of a non-taxable handpay. Some casinos have the machines lock up on a $1,000 hit, so while you won't get a tax form, you will have to wait for a hand pay...which I would assume you would tip on because we've spoken and you seem like a genuinely nice guy.

Another thing is that some ticket redemption machines will not cash tickets over a certain amount, (and certain total amounts ON a machine will sometimes cause them to lock up with the need for a non-taxable handpay---depends on the casino) so you might end up having to go to the cage if you succeed multiple times. They might keep an eye on you the rest of the day if you cash anything too big for potential CTR reasons.

You could probably find a slot tech and get the answers as to when the machines will or will not lock up and what the highest ticket the redemption machine will cash is.

Quote: 100xOdds

you have freeplay but the casino's best vp is 98.x% or less.
the vp machines have the double up feature on winning hands.

double up = no house edge

keep doing the double up till the next one is a hand pay.
ie: Quads = $250. Win Double up #1 = $500. Win Double up #2 = $1000. Stop because the next double up gets you a tax form

You either walk away with $0 from the freeplay or at least 1 almost handpays.
fun if you're into High variance.

Any holes in my strategy?
What do you think?

If you win a hand using freeplay, the payout is actual money. So, you aren't using freeplay to play the 'double up' feature, you are using your own real money.

Seems like it could be a fun strategy, but I don't see any advantage to it. You still must grind the entire freeplay amount against the house edge.

Quote: Joeman

If you win a hand using freeplay, the payout is actual money. So, you aren't using freeplay to play the 'double up' feature, you are using your own real money.

Seems like it could be a fun strategy, but I don't see any advantage to it. You still must grind the entire freeplay amount against the house edge.

If doing this strategy replaces an equal amount of time you would otherwise play 98% VP then it’s a +EV choice.

Quote: unJon

If doing this strategy replaces an equal amount of time you would otherwise play 98% VP then it’s a +EV choice.

Well that's a side issue, that would be like saying triple tapping the hold buttons is +EV because it slows down your play. The only thing that's really happening is a dilution of the -EV by putting in more action at break-even

I think adding the double-up in the mix could cause a situation that's more harmful in an addictive sense. It can quickly cause an out-of-control hot-sucker situation as they are looking for a big score. I can imagine a situation where someone who understands -EV might justify extra play with the "it's break-even when I'm using double up".

I doubt that there's any data on this but, people oftentimes wonder why a casino would want a breakeven double-up bet integrated into its machines. I think it's a good idea since it can cause players to spend more chasing the opportunity for the big run-up.

So, if you are someone who sometimes has issues with getting hot-suckered/paying too much/ chasing losses then you shouldn't add double up to the mix.

Quote: Joeman

If you win a hand using freeplay, the payout is actual money. So, you aren't using freeplay to play the 'double up' feature, you are using your own real money.

Seems like it could be a fun strategy, but I don't see any advantage to it. You still must grind the entire freeplay amount against the house edge.

yeah, i know when i win, i've converted freeplay to real $.

the double up feature is 0% house edge vs 2% house edge in vp.
you can also view it as spreading the house edge over multiple hands.

ie:
1 hand freeplay = 2% house edge (HE).
you having a winning hand and do the double up. now you have 2 hands at 2% HE total or 1% per hand.
you win again and do the double up. you now have 3 hands at 2% HE total, or .67% per hand
etc

this is a win $0 or win big strategy.
a variant is after 2 or 3 double up wins, quit and start over again.

Quote: AxelWolf

Well that's a side issue, that would be like saying triple tapping the hold buttons is +EV because it slows down your play. The only thing that's really happening is a dilution of the -EV by putting in more action at break-even

I think adding the double-up in the mix could cause a situation that's more harmful in an addictive sense. It can quickly cause an out-of-control hot-sucker situation as they are looking for a big score. I can imagine a situation where someone who understands -EV might justify extra play with the "it's break-even when I'm using double up".

I doubt that there's any data on this but, people oftentimes wonder why a casino would want a breakeven double-up bet integrated into its machines. I think it's a good idea since it can cause players to spend more chasing the opportunity for the big run-up.

So, if you are someone who sometimes has issues with getting hot-suckered/paying too much/ chasing losses then you shouldn't add double up to the mix.

I agree that if playing EV neutral games leads to playing more -EV games than otherwise, then it is a -EV situation. That is the opposite of my original post.

Quote: 100xOdds

yeah, i know when i win, i've converted freeplay to real $.

the double up feature is 0% house edge vs 2% house edge in vp.
you can also view it as spreading the house edge over multiple hands.

ie:
1 hand freeplay = 2% house edge (HE).
you having a winning hand and do the double up. now you have 2 hands at 2% HE total or 1% per hand.
you win again and do the double up. you now have 3 hands at 2% HE total, or .67% per hand
etc

this is a win $0 or win big strategy.
a variant is after 2 or 3 double up wins, quit and start over again.

Actually, in your example, it could be less than 1% House Edge relative to your total action. In other words, suppose there is a 2% House Edge on a game that has a $1.25 bet amount, you hit a flush that pays $7.50, now you attempt to double up and your total action becomes $8.75 with only the expected loss on the initial hand.

However, I would look at these (personally) as two separate bets just like I consider the, "Odds," bets in Craps a separate bet. The first bet has a house edge and the second one doesn't.

In any case, I think the point being made was that you are not exposing cash money to the House Edge in the first instance, but you are exposing cash money to (zero edge) in the second instance. It's not Free Play anymore; it's money.

I disagree with the notion that you are, "Spreading," anything, because they are separate bets that are related to one another, like PL & Odds, but still separate bets all the same.

Quote: unJon

I agree that if playing EV neutral games leads to playing more -EV games than otherwise, then it is a -EV situation. That is the opposite of my original post.

I got you, no real argument from me, just having a discussion is all. I'm not a... it must be +EV Nazi and claiming everyone is ploppy for having fun.

With that being said...
I cringed at your choice of words "it’s a +EV choice". Yikes! Let's not get all fast and loose with the term +EV sir (-:

I think "it's a better choice" would have been more suitable.

Quote: AxelWolf

I got you, no real argument from me, just having a discussion is all. I'm not a... it must be +EV Nazi and claiming everyone is ploppy for having fun.

With that being said...
I cringed at your choice of words "it’s a +EV choice". Yikes! Let's not get all fast and loose with the term +EV sir (-:

I think "it's a better choice" would have been more suitable.

Fair and point taken.

Quote: AxelWolf

I think adding the double-up in the mix could cause a situation that's more harmful in an addictive sense.
It can quickly cause an out-of-control hot-sucker situation as they are looking for a big score.

Hot sucker situation?
Can you explain?