Beginner VP

Is there a "bible" of Video Poker strategy like there has been over the years for Blackjack?

I don't want to bother the posters here with elementary questions about strategy or odds, and don't want to appear the fool with "dumb" questions (not that the folks here wouldn't be totally kind and helpful to a poker ploppy).

I have hardcopy versions of several of the blackjack classics, as well as numerous links to advice about how that game is played. I am partial to printed books as opposed to reading things online. Are there any such aids in VP?

Of course a "simple" question that might forgo additional research: Is video poker like blackjack such that it can be AP'd, or is it like roulette or craps, where any idea of advantage play is nuts? Save me the time of doing the research if the idea is no different than dice manipulation or the Martingdale system in roulette.

Thanks,

Quote: fantom

Is there a "bible" of Video Poker strategy like there has been over the years for Blackjack?

I don't want to bother the posters here with elementary questions about strategy or odds, and don't want to appear the fool with "dumb" questions (not that the folks here wouldn't be totally kind and helpful to a poker ploppy).

I have hardcopy versions of several of the blackjack classics, as well as numerous links to advice about how that game is played. I am partial to printed books as opposed to reading things online. Are there any such aids in VP?

Of course a "simple" question that might forgo additional research: Is video poker like blackjack such that it can be AP'd, or is it like roulette or craps, where any idea of advantage play is nuts? Save me the time of doing the research if the idea is no different than dice manipulation or the Martingdale system in roulette.

Thanks,

I don't know what in hardcopy could possibly be better than online sources. Wizardofodds.com, for example, can give you the optimal strategy for any video poker paytable that doesn't have some other gimmick attached to it.

Fundamentally, AP video poker (in terms of the game in and of itself) is simply a matter of whether or not a given paytable or variable paytable (meaning with a progressive(s)) combined with optimal playing strategy for that paytable or situation yields an expected return of more than 100%.

Practically speaking, such situations are relatively rare. Most video poker AP is going to involve a value-adding component outside of the video poker game itself. That's going to be something like points multiplier days, drawings, promotions, free play 'Mail,' and things along those lines. Even then, you'll still want to be something reasonably close to optimal strategy in order to maximize your returns.

Beyond that, feel free to ask any questions you may have...but I would recommend researching on your own first as these things have been discussed many times over on these forums and elsewhere. When you do have questions, I would say that the more specific a question you are able to ask the more specific an answer you will get.

Quote: fantom

Is there a "bible" of Video Poker strategy like there has been over the years for Blackjack?

I don't want to bother the posters here with elementary questions about strategy or odds, and don't want to appear the fool with "dumb" questions (not that the folks here wouldn't be totally kind and helpful to a poker ploppy).

I have hardcopy versions of several of the blackjack classics, as well as numerous links to advice about how that game is played. I am partial to printed books as opposed to reading things online. Are there any such aids in VP?

Of course a "simple" question that might forgo additional research: Is video poker like blackjack such that it can be AP'd, or is it like roulette or craps, where any idea of advantage play is nuts? Save me the time of doing the research if the idea is no different than dice manipulation or the Martingdale system in roulette.

Thanks,

The answer is yes, it can be AP’d. Many times the actual game will still be a loser, but free play, comps, mailers can override a house edge. Not always. Progressives also sometimes provide an AP opportunity. Vulturing also is an AP opportunity for certain games.

As far as aids to help you learn strategy, the sister website, wizardofOdds.com has that stuff.

Quote: fantom

Is there a "bible" of Video Poker strategy like there has been over the years for Blackjack?

I don't want to bother the posters here with elementary questions about strategy or odds, and don't want to appear the fool with "dumb" questions (not that the folks here wouldn't be totally kind and helpful to a poker ploppy).

I have hardcopy versions of several of the blackjack classics, as well as numerous links to advice about how that game is played. I am partial to printed books as opposed to reading things online. Are there any such aids in VP?

Of course a "simple" question that might forgo additional research: Is video poker like blackjack such that it can be AP'd, or is it like roulette or craps, where any idea of advantage play is nuts? Save me the time of doing the research if the idea is no different than dice manipulation or the Martingdale system in roulette.

Thanks,

Bob Dancer sells winners guides for various versions of video poker.
He covers
Jacks or better
Dbl bonus
Dbl Dbl bonus
Pickem poker
Deuces wild
I think you can order from Bobdancer. Com

Quote: Mission146

Wizardofodds.com, for example, can give you the optimal strategy for any video poker paytable that doesn't have some other gimmick attached to it.

For me, the good news/bad news is optimal strategy is theoretically great but can be very complicated. I prefer where WOO has a simple or intermediate strategy that doesn’t give up too much. For 96 JOB, the simple strat loses something like 0.08 vs optimal. Depending on what your goals are that might be perfectly fine. So I’d suggest look into that too.

And vpfree2 is a must anytime you go to a new casino or go someplace you haven’t been in some time.

I'm of the opinion that a video poker player needs to understand how the promo system works and use it to their advantage.

Quote: TinMan

For me, the good news/bad news is optimal strategy is theoretically great but can be very complicated. I prefer where WOO has a simple or intermediate strategy that doesn’t give up too much. For 96 JOB, the simple strat loses something like 0.08 vs optimal. Depending on what your goals are that might be perfectly fine. So I’d suggest look into that too.

And vpfree2 is a must anytime you go to a new casino or go someplace you haven’t been in some time.

I agree with that. There are probably only two specific paytables that I even play optimally (because once upon a time there was reason for me to frequently be playing them) and one where I'm pretty close.

I'm going to do my own research, but going in, it's my guess that any AP potential is very difficult, or else the game would not be out there. And, as well, that there are many tinfoil hat wearing proponents of various approaches that mimic what I read all the time about blackjack. Caveat Bettor.

Quote: fantom

I'm going to do my own research, but going in, it's my guess that any AP potential is very difficult, or else the game would not be out there. And, as well, that there are many tinfoil hat wearing proponents of various approaches that mimic what I read all the time about blackjack. Caveat Bettor.

Always caveat bettor. As far as AP potential being, "Difficult," it depends on what one person does or does not think is difficult. I will say that discovering profitable opportunities is probably the most difficult component of it---but the same could be said for Blackjack AP.

Quote: fantom

I'm going to do my own research, but going in, it's my guess that any AP potential is very difficult, or else the game would not be out there. And, as well, that there are many tinfoil hat wearing proponents of various approaches that mimic what I read all the time about blackjack. Caveat Bettor.

The historical contest may be useful, in that 20 years ago, it was relatively easy to AP video poker without the need to count cashback, free play, and Tupperware as part of the "advantage." I recommend Dancer's book, Million Dollar Video Poker, as a glimpse into those easier-to-beat days. Available pay tables and comps have tightened up so much over the last 20 years that it has become a very different landscape. If you read Jean Scott's columns at Las Vegas Advisor (she recently retired from playing), you'll get a sense of how much more difficult it is today -- she references the differences as part of the reason she and her husband retired from play.

Also, understand that video poker is considered, and this is not really hyperbole, "the crack of gambling." I recommend anthropologist Natasha Dow Schull's book, "Addiction by Design" as a warning. Video poker appears to be the most addictive form of casino gambling, so learning to play a game that is marginally beatable (at best) may be more trouble than it's worth.

The problem with learning to play vp in 2021 is that any AP margins are not likely to get any fatter, that using free play or comps (which can be withdrawn or zeroed out at any time) as part of the formula for figuring success is problematic, and that the game is highly addictive -- so casinos don't mind some people learning to play with slim or comp-dependent margins because those people will have a hard time quitting vp play as those miniscule margins are eventually choked off.

Quote: SOOPOO

The answer is yes, it can be AP’d. Many times the actual game will still be a loser, but free play, 𝐜𝐨𝐦𝐩𝐬, mailers can override a house edge.

I don't believe what you posted here is 100% accurate...................I'm referring to your mentioning comps

it is only accurate when considering comps if you accept their quotation of the retail value of the comp

i.e. - if they give you 2 nights in their luxury hotel the retail cost of that might be $500

but I would never ever consider it to be actually worth $500 to me

when I could be just as content staying in a hotel somewhere that costs me $160 for 2 nights

the same is true with food

they give you 2 dinners at their surf and turf restaurant

the retail cost of those dinners is $120

but they don't have a value of $120 to me

so, the entire calculation becomes flawed - in my opinion




*

Quote: lilredrooster

I don't believe what you posted here is 100% accurate...................I'm referring to your mentioning comps

it is only accurate when considering comps if you accept their quotation of the retail value of the comp

i.e. - if they give you 2 nights in their luxury hotel the retail cost of that might be $500

but I would never ever consider it to be actually worth $500 to me

when I could be just as content staying in a hotel somewhere that costs me $160 for 2 nights

the same is true with food

they give you 2 dinners at their surf and turf restaurant

the retail cost of those dinners is $120

but they don't have a value of $120 to me

so, the entire calculation becomes flawed - in my opinion




*

. Not sure if you read my post accurately. I specifically said CAN override the house edge, not WILL. Of course it will be up to you to decide the value of a comp. I was going to buy a $50 mini air conditioner last summer. By a freaking coincidence I was comped one for playing what I would have played anyway. For me the comp was worth $55 (tax... + cost). To you it may have been worth far less.

Quote: lilredrooster

I don't believe what you posted here is 100% accurate...................I'm referring to your mentioning comps

it is only accurate when considering comps if you accept their quotation of the retail value of the comp

i.e. - if they give you 2 nights in their luxury hotel the retail cost of that might be $500

but I would never ever consider it to be actually worth $500 to me

when I could be just as content staying in a hotel somewhere that costs me $160 for 2 nights

the same is true with food

they give you 2 dinners at their surf and turf restaurant

the retail cost of those dinners is $120

but they don't have a value of $120 to me

so, the entire calculation becomes flawed - in my opinion




*

On the other hand, having access to a nice free suite and comped dinners at a steakhouse has sealed many a deal. Business and romantic.

There are still plenty of people who make a living playing progressive's and small promotions around Las Vegas, some of them 30 years later.

Quote: AxelWolf

There are still plenty of people who make a living playing progressive's and small promotions around Las Vegas, some of them 30 years later.

Fighting each other every step of the way right? lol.

Is Vegas the only place left that you can earn a (modest) living chasing bonuses and progressives like that?

For me, it was only supplemental to my BJ play and I have very much gotten away from the amount I used to play, mostly because after my partner passed, I don't want to put in the time.

But with a year like I had last year blackjack wise, very far below expectation, under 15k, I almost doubled my income with that little extra supplemental play. It really helped in such a year.

In the Golden Age of Blackjack ($5 minimums, 6 decks, S17 and 3:2 - not pre-COVID) I made do with comps and a small profit based on Basic Strategy and HiLo. I never paid for a meal, a drink, or a concert ticket, could stay for free two or three midweek days a month, and have all the Tupperware I will ever need. But no more.

I got pretty good at working the system when they offered various incentives that boosted points and didn't mind paying outrageous retail prices for things with their monopoly money instead of real dollars.

I would be happy breaking even in real terms and walking away with some points, mailers or other comps. My impression is that incentives have really been cut back for everyone, so I'm prepared to be disappointed, but hey - it's worth a shot.

I almost never walk away from a blackjack table without being amazed at how stupid most people are when they sit down to play. I don't want to be one of those folks when i sit down at a video poker machine, so I have to do some homework.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll let you know how it works out.

The money in Video Poker is in the mailers. You just need to find a place that sends good mailers for a minimum amount of play. If you do your homework they are out there. You won't get rich but you can make $50k to $100k a year doing it if you put the time and travel in.

Quote: kewlj

Fighting each other every step of the way right? lol.

Is Vegas the only place left that you can earn a (modest) living chasing bonuses and progressives like that?

For me, it was only supplemental to my BJ play and I have very much gotten away from the amount I used to play, mostly because after my partner passed, I don't want to put in the time.

But with a year like I had last year blackjack wise, very far below expectation, under 15k, I almost doubled my income with that little extra supplemental play. It really helped in such a year.

Mind you, this is just the basic stuff like progressives, small promotions and some mail(oftentimes they get taken off the mailing list). Guys who are not all that interested in mixing it up, they play basic in your face stuff. So, 50k- 100k per year with no boss, freedom + some Comps doing what you like isn't bad. I have no clue what type of hours they put in nowadays.

Many of they work together sharing information.

I don't really enjoy grinding day in and day out, its been a few years since I played a VP progressive. Even before that, I only hit VP prog's hard pre 2002. I didn't even spend much time playing the $2 FPDW at the DTG, I think I played one few hour session.

There are other places you can play VP and make a living. Up until a few years ago there was some really good stuff outside NV on $1 VP that was worth over 200k per year just plopping yourself down and playing and it lasted years.

Quote: DRich

The money in Video Poker is in the mailers.

I get occasional mail from casinos that offer reduced room rates or "2nd night half price" deals, but of course with a damned Resort Fee that's never waived that's not so great a deal. This is for blackjack play only - I don't do anything else. Here at home I'll get mailers telling me about tchotchkes, but these are only notifications suggesting that I show up with my player's card. The same with free play coupons.

Does video poker play generate more valuable mailers?

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. That is why it is vital for the VP player to know the answers to where he plays. Las Vegas and Nevada have bars that run generous promos and mailings and most non-strip casinos used to have decent rewards and mailings.

Quote: billryan

and mailings and most non-strip casinos used to have decent rewards and mailings.

Right, and mailer offers are different for local players as opposed to out of state. And it sounds like the fantom may be from out of state.

Local players get more free play (and dining pre covid times), while out of towners tend to get offers more about room comps, reduced rates. That is not to say out of towners won't get free play offers, but they will try to draw them in with room offers first because that costs the casino almost nothing, especially weekdays. But boy, if they are not waiving the resort fees, which was mentioned, what a joke.

Quote: billryan

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. That is why it is vital for the VP player to know the answers to where he plays. Las Vegas and Nevada have bars that run generous promos and mailings and most non-strip casinos used to have decent rewards and mailings.

I just seen a daily 20 for 20 a few minutes from my house..

Now you only need to find 10 of those. I bet there are and even better...

Big Buck's 😉.

It used to be you could find 50 for 50 coin in at multiple locations. x's that by a few accounts... and now you have something...

Quote: AxelWolf

20 for 20... 10 of those... 50 for 50 coin in at multiple locations

What's that mean?

I assume that "a few accounts" means multiple player cards. If it's not asking too much, how's that done? Does Mrs. AxelWolf and the eleven AxelWolf children all have cards? And, remarkably, all play every day that you do?

Quote: fantom

What's that mean?

I assume that "a few accounts" means multiple player cards. If it's not asking too much, how's that done? Does Mrs. AxelWolf and the eleven AxelWolf children all have cards? And, remarkably, all play every day that you do?

Something like that...

Gamblers Bonus: At the beginning, they didn't require anything to get an account. You could go to any bar or 7-11 and various other places.... Simply fill out a card give it to the attendant. Two days - a week later you would have a fully active account number(it's a cardless system) you could log in and get your bonus money from any/ multiple locations. You could play and earn bonus money the meantime, but you couldn't cash out the bonus money until your account was fully activated. Sometimes you would have money built up on an account that wasn't activated and for some reason your sighn up form would get lost and you were SOL, unless you wanted to be an idiot and call them directly.

There was a time where they had a special where any new account got $10 free. There were some locations where if you coined in $100 you got $100(that was rare, but it happened). Even after tipping $7 you would have a $90+ profit that you could be downloaded and cash out instantly. There were 10 to 30 locations at any one time doing $10-$100. It may be one day a week, 2 days a week or daily. You never knew all the places, I think there was over 400 locations that had GB at the time. Nowadays, you have to give up your ID number and other info to get an account. I haven't seen anything more than $20 for 20 in years, but to be fair, I don't really look.

About 12 years ago (I only remember because we had that big snow day here in vegas) they had a bunch of 7-11's that were doing $50 for $50 each day in December. I would wake up about 12pm and get home about 2 am. Of course, I would take long lunch and dinner breaks and jack around. I enjoyed every minute of it. Since it was the holidays, take that Christmas feeling people get and x it by 5. It was basically free no risk money while playing a little video poker. I prefer something like that over some big limit VP, slot or table game.

Looking back, I wish I would have been more vigilant looking for new places and done way more with it from the beginning when I first found it, I didn't think they were dumb enough to keep doing it over and over at many locations for years. And yes, a some point, accounts would get shut down and you would get run out of places if you were not cautious and didn't tip well.

Early on, Gamblers Bonus even sent a letter out to a colleague saying they were going to prosecute him etc. Legally you're within your rights, however, that doesn't mean can't have problems and you never know 100%.


The place I just found isn't GB and you can't really mufti account since the bartender does it manually. You could go in each shift, if you were motivated to do so.

Some bars offer $20 free play for playing $20. Occasionally, a multi-bar chain might all offer the promo so if you hit eight locations, you can get $160 in free play that needs to be played once. Playing VP at a 95% payback, you'd deposit $160, play $320 and cash out around $300. $40 in tips and you have $100 for the day. If it sounds easy, just be aware it takes a lot of discipline to play the promo games.

Quote: fantom

Is there a "bible" of Video Poker strategy like there has been over the years for Blackjack?

wizardofodds.com - But like the more famous bible, there may be other places to go that are better for you. I like apps on phone where I just put in five cards and it tells me the correct hold..

Quote: fantom

Is video poker like blackjack such that it can be AP'd

Some parts are even easier and more straightforward than blackjack. With blackjack you have to either play -EV hands, or just sit there and watch. Convert to a true count and only estimate an edge. With video poker the paytable is on the machine. Based on using an optimal system of what cards to keep or throw away, the expected value of any machine is easy to research.
-If it is +100% (these machines can be easy to find, since they are usually well advertised on the casino floor), advantage play involves little more than putting money in the machine and hitting buttons.
-If it is around 99.5% or higher, putting money in and hitting buttons *should* have an overall player advantage, but might require some nuance. In Las Vegas there are a lot of placed that give 0.5% cash back on action once or twice per week (and 0.1% five or six days per week). It is easy enough to wait until those days.
-If the machine is under 99%, there can be a player advantage, but requires either a much more refined system, or other stuff. That "other stuff" can be straightforward, and easily calculated. Examples would be progressives, double royal or four-of-a-kind promotion, get $5 for every 500 points, etc. Usually it can be behind-the-scenes casino marketing. Every casino I have ever known about gives discretionary cash and comps to people. "Mailings" is the usual term, since most people learn about them by mail the casinos sends. It should now all be done electronically, but that's a different issue. Play a little and it might be $5 per week. Play a lot and it can be hundreds.
-Drawings can be another way to add value to video poker. I've never considered them worth anything, but some people do very well on them
-Soft comps can make it either a great hobby, or improve working conditions. A golf course isn't going to give away a hotel room and dinner just because I play their games, but a casino will. That's cool. Imagine another job that let us set our own hours, had catered meals and an open bar anytime someone wanted it, and gave an annual cruise to its employees. I would love to work there.
-One of the biggest barriers is scaling upward. 10 years ago I knew of plenty of 25-machines that were worth $10 per hour to me, which means $20 to a fast player. No matter where I was in the Las Vegas valley I could have found one of them. There were not $5 machines I knew about that were worth $200 to $400 per hour. Though I would hear stories about them on occasion.
-Other barriers for a lot of people are the big swings against such a small edge. I can accept losing, but I don't want to see five figure drawdowns, which can easily happen trying to get just a few hundred dollars worth of value.

I think it's important to delineate that the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed?" is yes. And the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed to the tune of 50K to 100K a year?" -- well, that's debatable if you're starting from scratch in 2021.

A lot of optimism in the answers here. And no answers that hint at somebody trying this (of course some readers of this forum have tried to do it recently) and crashing and burning. Selective reporting? Probably. Selective memories? Probably. Selective bullshit? Probably.

One factor you have to consider is that the cash back and free play and Tupperware are based on your ratings in various slot clubs. So someone starting out will not automatically have those percentages available to them without a ton of play at less favorable earnings percentages. For example, without Bob Dancer's top of the line ratings in all slot clubs, the machines he plays would not necessarily yield profits when everything is tallied together. It's only his past play that enables his present play to be as expansive as it is on the range of machines. What this means is that if you try to emulate someone like Dancer, you will likely be operating at a negative EV until you match his slot club ratings.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on the entire idea. I'm ahead lifetime playing video poker, but we're talking about the cost of a used car. Plus I'd gotten 12-24 free nights a year in LV for 20-some years. So this kind of play isn't that difficult.

But 50-100K a year starting from scratch? That's a tad optimistic. And it's a very dangerous goal.

Quote: redietz

But 50-100K a year starting from scratch? That's a tad optimistic. And it's a very dangerous goal.

I don't think it is that optimistic in Las Vegas. $50k seems very reasonable for a beginner that has a decent bankroll if they are willing to work a lot. It is not easy or fun, but if you put in 60 hour weeks I think $50k is doable for most that are willing to learn.

Of course in Vegas there are many ways to make $50k working where very little skill is required and no bankroll. Get a job as a waiter or waitress at a mid level restaurant and you will make $50k.

Quote: redietz

I think it's important to delineate that the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed?" is yes. And the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed to the tune of 50K to 100K a year?" -- well, that's debatable if you're starting from scratch in 2021.

A lot of optimism in the answers here. And no answers that hint at somebody trying this (of course some readers of this forum have tried to do it recently) and crashing and burning. Selective reporting? Probably. Selective memories? Probably. Selective bullshit? Probably.

One factor you have to consider is that the cash back and free play and Tupperware are based on your ratings in various slot clubs. So someone starting out will not automatically have those percentages available to them without a ton of play at less favorable earnings percentages. For example, without Bob Dancer's top of the line ratings in all slot clubs, the machines he plays would not necessarily yield profits when everything is tallied together. It's only his past play that enables his present play to be as expansive as it is on the range of machines. What this means is that if you try to emulate someone like Dancer, you will likely be operating at a negative EV until you match his slot club ratings.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on the entire idea. I'm ahead lifetime playing video poker, but we're talking about the cost of a used car. Plus I'd gotten 12-24 free nights a year in LV for 20-some years. So this kind of play isn't that difficult.



Someone who puts in the time and wisely uses the time can easily make a couple hundred dollars per week. I'd say when you throw in the free meals that come with your play, it is comparable to working and making $50,000
The key is discipline. Are you willing to get up and take advantage of a play $100, get $40 free that runs from 6AM-8AM?
Are you willing to spend every holiday banging out on double point days? Are you willing to give up your Saturday night to be there for a drawing that you have a new percent chance of winning?
No one is saying it is easy money. It's not, but the opportunities are there.
But 50-100K a year starting from scratch? That's a tad optimistic. And it's a very dangerous goal.

Quote: redietz

One factor you have to consider is that the cash back and free play and Tupperware are based on your ratings in various slot clubs. So someone starting out will not automatically have those percentages available to them without a ton of play at less favorable earnings percentages. For example, without Bob Dancer's top of the line ratings in all slot clubs, the machines he plays would not necessarily yield profits when everything is tallied together. It's only his past play that enables his present play to be as expansive as it is on the range of machines. What this means is that if you try to emulate someone like Dancer, you will likely be operating at a negative EV until you match his slot club ratings.

For some, the exact opposite is true. If I were to go and play $35,000 at one of the usual casinos I go to, it would provide only a little more than the actual points I earn. Those casinos know there are plenty of times I play a lot less. They know I am willing to use my free-play and leave. It all gets absorbed into adt. That level of action might bump my free-play from $5 per week to $25. If a first time player did that much, the casino might think that is their baseline and give them more aggressive offers to get them to come back. Probably get $100 per week in that first monthly offer.

Quote: redietz

But 50-100K a year starting from scratch? That's a tad optimistic. And it's a very dangerous goal.

When I calculated it, I figured $100,000 at the very top end. Going higher would require access to certain things that aren't available to everyone. But that is a huge range for anyone who wants to play with an advantage. Anything above $0 is better than 99.64% of all people who play casino games. How far above $0 is just a matter of how hard and how long someone is willing to work at it.

Quote: redietz

I think it's important to delineate that the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed?" is yes. And the answer to "Can video poker be AP'ed to the tune of 50K to 100K a year?" -- well, that's debatable if you're starting from scratch in 2021.

A lot of optimism in the answers here. And no answers that hint at somebody trying this (of course some readers of this forum have tried to do it recently) and crashing and burning. Selective reporting? Probably. Selective memories? Probably. Selective bullshit? Probably.

One factor you have to consider is that the cash back and free play and Tupperware are based on your ratings in various slot clubs. So someone starting out will not automatically have those percentages available to them without a ton of play at less favorable earnings percentages. For example, without Bob Dancer's top of the line ratings in all slot clubs, the machines he plays would not necessarily yield profits when everything is tallied together. It's only his past play that enables his present play to be as expansive as it is on the range of machines. What this means is that if you try to emulate someone like Dancer, you will likely be operating at a negative EV until you match his slot club ratings.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on the entire idea. I'm ahead lifetime playing video poker, but we're talking about the cost of a used car. Plus I'd gotten 12-24 free nights a year in LV for 20-some years. So this kind of play isn't that difficult.

But 50-100K a year starting from scratch? That's a tad optimistic. And it's a very dangerous goal.

let me start out by saying, I can't even fathom JUST AP'ing video poker. It just doesn't make any sense. If someone has the ability to AP video poker then there's absolutely no reason they wouldn't, shouldn't, or couldn't add other games in the mix. For example, let's say there's a good promotion at a casino, but the promo excludes video poker, however, all the slots during the promotion are now a 10% advantage, what now, this video poker AP is just going to walk out of the casino? Is that same guy is just going to walk by a fully loaded max bet Scarab machine on his way to a video poker machine and not play it? He's going to just toss out $50 match plays? Is he going to say F that video roulette promo, its only worth thousands per hour with little or no risk?

There are going to be multiple factors. It's really going to come down to who you are, how motivated you are, what and how fast you're capable learning, if you can you think outside the box(knowing the math and strategies cold won't really get you that far), and can you network(networking isn't needed, but it helps). Then there are bankroll and lifestyle considerations. Let's take an extreme example. If you are young, smart, motivated, single with a 30k bankroll while still living at your parents house, I can't see any reason you couldn't make over a 100k a year. If your an old dog curmudgeon with a tightly gripped 5K bankroll looking to setting up shop 8 hours a day at your most convenient casinos that only offer a few in your face progressives and crappy promotions, you're probably not going to do that well.

Assuming you have many of the qualities it takes. Here's some advice I have. Scouting, scouring thinking(How can I beat this) Scouting, scouring, thinking(how can I beat this) Scouting, scouring thinking(how can I beat this).