drrock
drrock
Joined: Mar 6, 2012
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Mission146
February 5th, 2020 at 3:28:23 PM permalink
Quote: drrock

My guess is that this idea of his is a rationalization to allow him saving face. His story about the $100 bill, perhaps even made up, is ironic. He has been expressing the idea that vulturing multipliers is of low moral standing ever since he made an offer of $100 to ANYONE (on videopoker.com) that could inform him of advantage plays in Florida. Someone quickly mentioned Ultimate X (along with progressives) and he welched on his offer. Ultimate X was seen as below him and progressives were not available every day. So, the story about keeping $100 that was due to someone else is not really all that surprising for longtime videopoker.com forum members.

For those of you who don't visit videopoker.com's forum, you should know that you apparently did a number on SVP's psyche. Your logical, well-reasoned responses and rebuttals that many of you produced in threads like this one seemed to have overwhelmed him. Even though SVP stated here that he did not intend on going back to that forum until Bob Dancer apologized for one of his columns where Bob wrote about having no problem if a hypothetical non-existent son-in-law chose to be an advantage player, it looks like SVP could not get back to the relative safe haven of videopoker.com's forum fast enough. I'm fairly certain that Bob did not apologize, so you have to form your own explanations why he is back there and no longer posting here.

Evidently my earlier post also had an effect. Even though he did not respond to it here, he decided finally to honor the nearly year-long $100 debt in his first post back after his 6-month suspension. There are many more posters there that seem to lead with their emotions rather than reason. Quite a few don't remember SVP's relentless and repetitive badgering of every Bob Dancer post for years and many are ruled by rage over Bob's subsequent responses when they have been less than generous about SVP's acumen. Many of the more knowledgeable posters decided long ago that it was not worth the time to wade through the nonsense and repetition and have ceased participating. SVP is generally being welcomed back while many seem to be happy if they can drive Dancer away.

To each their own, I guess. Good luck with the continued spreading of knowledge.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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February 5th, 2020 at 3:37:39 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Scamming is illegal. Using other players cards with permission of the cardholders is not illegal, therefore not a scam.

In another thread we are discussing how casinos feel vulturing Ultimate X multipliers is a cheat move and the work of scammers

Don't fall into the ugly casino trap of labeling every AP move a scam.

That said, the tribal lands autonomy is something to be wary of. However the biggest penalty would be refusal of payment. They won't throw him into tribal land prison I am pretty certain.

As long as he can prove his people gave him permission to use the cards



wasnt there a thread where you told us the exact reason why using someone elses card is not a crime? I have a friend who previously managed slots at sands beth. and they didnt care which card was in the machine it was whoever pressed the button. But I along with him do not know the laws of florida or tribal gaming. You wouldnt be able to summarize a list of states with the word yes or no if you think its illegal to use someone elses card, or do you think its not illegal anywhere to use someone elses card?
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 5th, 2020 at 3:47:42 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

wasnt there a thread where you told us the exact reason why using someone elses card is not a crime? I have a friend who previously managed slots at sands beth. and they didnt care which card was in the machine it was whoever pressed the button. But I along with him do not know the laws of florida or tribal gaming. You wouldnt be able to summarize a list of states with the word yes or no if you think its illegal to use someone elses card, or do you think its not illegal anywhere to use someone elses card?



To be clear, it's not illegal to use another person's players card WITH THEIR PERMISSION TO USE THEIR CARD anywhere in the United States INCLUDING PENNSYLVANIA (which some people have questioned)

However, Tribal lands are considered Sovereign Nations. Technically you are stepping onto autonomous land outside the USA (although physically within it and as Americans you don't exactly give up your constitutional rights. This has led to, well, questionable decisions and outcomes on tribal lands)

So speaking for all of America sans the tribal lands, it is definitely not illegal

Tribal lands, probably not but they are autonomous and so one needs to watch out

But I heavily doubt they would have the power to imprison anyone for use of multiple cards. They probably would just confiscate all your valuables including your vehicle (and that's not a joke -- it has happened to AP's in the past
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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heatmap
February 5th, 2020 at 4:12:06 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

To be clear, it's not illegal to use another person's players card WITH THEIR PERMISSION TO USE THEIR CARD anywhere in the United States INCLUDING PENNSYLVANIA (which some people have questioned)

However, Tribal lands are considered Sovereign Nations. Technically you are stepping onto autonomous land outside the USA (although physically within it and as Americans you don't exactly give up your constitutional rights. This has led to, well, questionable decisions and outcomes on tribal lands)

So speaking for all of America sans the tribal lands, it is definitely not illegal

Tribal lands, probably not but they are autonomous and so one needs to watch out

But I heavily doubt they would have the power to imprison anyone for use of multiple cards. They probably would just confiscate all your valuables including your vehicle (and that's not a joke -- it has happened to AP's in the past



I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.

But I am pretty sure Tribal police cannot arrest anyone who is not a member of their tribe. They are basically like MPs from what I have been taught (they really only have Law Enforcment power over military members, just like tribal police only have power over tribal members). I think they can do speeding and parking tickets to non tribal members (like MPs) but no arresting. Somebody will probably correct some of this, but I think generally, tribal police have very limited power over non tribal members.

If you are insinuating some sketchier tribes may do some backroom stuff with their police to intimidate and steal from you if you are running well at their casinos? Or find a bs reason to ticket and tow your car to recoup losses?
It would not suprise me.

I avoid tribal lands like the plague so hopefully I will never find out. Tribes exist to protect their members even to the detriment of outsiders.
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:19:39 PM permalink
Why are so many assumptions made about Tribal Casinos? I don't think Winstar became the largest casino in the world because they're back there taking baseball bats to peoples' ***sacks if they hit a jackpot, or whatever people are assuming goes on there.

They just run casinos, and I've dealt with non-Nevada GCB's. Honestly, I'll take my chances with the Tribal authorities, given the choice. I already know what to expect with the GCB's, and I don't know what to expect with the Tribes, but it can't be worse.
Vultures can't be choosers.
darkoz
darkoz
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:19:42 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.

But I am pretty sure Tribal police cannot arrest anyone who is not a member of their tribe. They are basically like MPs from what I have been taught (they really only have Law Enforcment power over military members, just like tribal police only have power over tribal members). I think they can do speeding and parking tickets to non tribal members (like MPs) but no arresting. Somebody will probably correct some of this, but I think generally, tribal police have very limited power over non tribal members.

If you are insinuating some sketchier tribes may do some backroom stuff with their police to intimidate and steal from you if you are running well at their casinos? Or find a bs reason to ticket and tow your car to recoup losses?
It would not suprise me.

I avoid tribal lands like the plague so hopefully I will never find out. Tribes exist to protect their members even to the detriment of outsiders.



Agreed

Here is one story from WOV a few years ago.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/all-other/24500-arrested-for-playing-on-someones-players-card/
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Mission146
Mission146
Joined: May 15, 2012
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:25:34 PM permalink
What relevance is that as relates tribes? I know someone who got 86'ed and had multiple slot tickets confiscated, gaming keeps saying they'll, "Get back to him." There's apparently only one person in gaming who has anything to do with this particular thing. Four months and counting, no resolution yet. He's talked to the gaming person once, which is approximately one time for every 47 voicemails he has left.
Vultures can't be choosers.
heatmap
heatmap
Joined: Feb 12, 2018
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:31:29 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I am not a lawyer, and I know even less about tribal law.



I thank you for not using the accronym
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:33:27 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Agreed

Here is one story from WOV a few years ago.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/all-other/24500-arrested-for-playing-on-someones-players-card/



And, that is a prime example of the issue with tribal casino.

When a tribes existence depends on casinos, it encourages tribal police to essentially become protectors of the casino.

You would never be arrested to having multiple player cards at a legit casino, at most you would be banned and maybe some winnings voided.

But when a country (tribal land, just saying country for simplicity) depends on the existence of a casino, the police are going to become revenue protectors.

I have a moral issue with tribal lands. I have an issue with tribal casinos. And, the stories I hear, even if a fraction true, are enough to make me never want to go there even if I had no moral objection to their existence....
Gandler
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
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February 5th, 2020 at 4:34:14 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

I thank you for not using the accronym



I don't know what that means?

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