Playing Without An Edge

Quote: Mission146

I never really play table games and have never really played them that often. Craps, Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em, Pai-Gow Poker and Let it Ride are the only ones I like...I think virtually every other table game is profoundly boring...but most of them have an Element of Risk lower than 3% but strategies that vary in how complex they are.

I have a friend that plays "Let it Ride". I watched him play and it looked a lot like double double bonus. I don't wish to get into any game where the required bankroll exceeds $300 a day. That's why I like quarter deuces wild. I can normally play 3-4 hours with a 50/50 chance of hitting a quad deuce or a royal.

Quote: TigerWu

This sentence describes more then a few members here, as well as 90% of the Internet in general.

I gave him substance. I said he was lazy. Why should anyone here do ALL the work for him? Under other circumstances there might have been a lot of people here jumping to help him. He's not just lazy, he's stubborn. Imagine him saying that he looked all over Atlantic City and couldn't find any 9-6 JoB. That is so pathetic he doesn't deserve substance.

Quote: bobbartop

I gave him substance. I said he was lazy. Why should anyone here do ALL the work for him? Under other circumstances there might have been a lot of people here jumping to help him. He's not just lazy, he's stubborn. Imagine him saying that he looked all over Atlantic City and couldn't find any 9-6 JoB. That is so pathetic he doesn't deserve substance.

And I think he said he couldn't find any must-hits at his casino. DOUBTFUL. Back to lazy.

And now that I've been reading his posts for a few days it is apparent that he is NOT a newbie. So ALL this time he has spent gambling in casinos, (years), and he still don't know squat. Too busy yapping. Un-learnable. Un-teachable.

Quote: bobbartop

Imagine him saying that he looked all over Atlantic City and couldn't find any 9-6 JoB. That is so pathetic he doesn't deserve substance.

So you know, here's what happened in Atlantic City. You may not wish to hear this, but here it goes.

We went to the Northeast for a week to play video poker. Our rooms were fully comped. We checked into the Borgata. We had never been there before. We had a very hard time finding any machine where the buttons didn't stick. The keyboards were covered in tobacco ashes. The bars were full of drunk kids screaming at the top of their lungs. The best quarter deuce's wild game we found was 97%. One of the forum members directed me to an old 9/6 Jacks or Better machine, so I switched from Deuces Wild to Jacks. About seven PM my wife noticed something weird happening with the machines. Whenever she would discard, the card would flash on the deal and the same card would appear on the draw. I watched her for a while and saw it myself. We moved around and found a similar situation on numerous machines. Either the machines were rigged or the buttons were faulty.

We called the slot attendant and showed her the problem. She saw it as well. She called the floor manager and we were told he would be right over. We both waited for almost an hour and he never showed. We went back to our room and checked out the following morning. We then moved to the Mohegan Sun where we were treated like valued customers. Unfortunately, I got the flu and spent much of the time in bed. We will not be playing in Atlantic City again. If you must play there, I pity you.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

This is the same kind of answer I would expect from Bob Dancer. All words with no substance. Would it hurt to answer my question or don't you know the answer?

Look for a machine with a progressive (usually either two or four progressives) that has verbiage such as, "Must hit by," "Must hit," "Hits before," "Wins Before," "Must Award by," or some verbiage like that.

Here is a post I made that roughly describes one of the methods to calculate when one is at an advantage:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/slots/30075-progressive-jackpot-help/#post623111

Mamat also makes a most excellent post on the following page.

Must-Hit Plays

With all of that said, the math is easy enough to figure out, especially since you believe that everything that there will ever be to say about AP has already been said...which, by extension...means you have read every possible thing on AP...which, by extension...means you know literally everything about AP.

---Except for what a must-hit looks like.

Here are some quick things to understand:

1.) You probably won't find any great plays by themselves (without considering other factors). The fact of the matter is that many casual slot players (some call them ploppies) think these things are good before they actually are, jump on way too early, but have sufficient bankroll to play until the thing hits, more often than not taking some sort of loss by the end.

You might find some decent or borderline plays, though, but these often require waiting around. You're often waiting for someone who has already lost some money to it to either bust out or decide they are just going to keep losing and choose to quit. It's kind of depressing, really.

2.) You almost certainly won't find any HUGE (like 5k or 10k must-hit plays) for several reasons:

A.) There are often AP teams who go around looking for them and who have scouts. Even I have a few people who I could call if I found a really good one of this nature, but I almost never do.

B.) These teams and/or players will often play at a point that some AP's would consider, "Too low," just to sit down and play it. In other words, the machine is not necessarily positive by itself. In most of these cases, the players are hoping for some mail offers that are anticipated to make the overall play really positive.

C.) The same thing as #1, sometimes a well-enough bankrolled person is just playing the thing too early but has enough to see it through.

3.) The bankroll requirements can be extremely significant so you have to make sure you are going to have access to a lot of money without the need to leave the casino. In other words, you'll either need to already be carrying it, have someone get it and bring it to you or have some means to access money via the casino itself. Usually it is one of the first two things. You definitely need more than the amount that the must hit is because you will lose more than the amount that you are going for on several plays. These are extremely high volatility machine with tremendous risk. The worst thing you could do is play and play and play just to not have enough money to finish it up.

Also, it's not unusual to run at 70% on just the reels for an extended period of time. Sometimes worse.

4.) Another important consideration is that they can take forever. The less you bet the more reduced the likelihood is for a huge downswing (or upswing) but the longer it is going to take. Here's a theoretical example for you.

Must Hit: $4,920.00/$5,000.00 METER MOVE $5.00/$0.01

So here you would have as many as 8,000 meter moves to guarantee the thing is going to hit and I made each meter move exactly $5.00 coin-in just to keep this really simple. What that means is that you could end up playing as much as $40,000 coin-in on this machine. If the max bet is $4.00/spin (we'll make it a penny machine) at 800 spins/hour, then you could be looking at as much time as 12.5 hours if it runs all the way. Some machines you can't slam stop and also have lengthy bonus games, though, so 800 spins/hour can sometimes be a little bit wishful thinking.

Play $2/spin, now you're just over as many as 24 hours. $1.20/spin and now you might be over 40 hours so on and so forth.

I've been part of multiple endurance tests of this nature in my time, but fortunately I was working with other people.

5.) It can go REALLY bad.

My most recent or second most recent must hit play was one that started at $198.80 (or so) must hit by $200 with a $2.50/penny meter move. Quite frankly, I was shocked to find it. Okay, so $300 coin-in and this thing is a lock. Well, sure enough it hit at $199.98, I had a terrible run on the reels (quarter machine, would actually have preferred pennies for this) betting either $0.75 or $1.25 (was switching back and forth) and lost $20 on what should have been as close to a mortal lock as I have ever found as far as must-hits go. I almost fainted when I saw it. lol

So, I ended up doing $295 coin-in (actually a little less because it was $198.8x but I don't remember what so I put a zero) and got about $75 back on the reels. That's 25ish% for those of you keeping score at home.

On a huge play (lots of coin in) that essentially couldn't happen percentage-wise, but you could sure as hell end up losing a lot more than twenty bucks.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I have a friend that plays "Let it Ride". I watched him play and it looked a lot like double double bonus. I don't wish to get into any game where the required bankroll exceeds $300 a day. That's why I like quarter deuces wild. I can normally play 3-4 hours with a 50/50 chance of hitting a quad deuce or a royal.

What?

If you find a $5 Let It Ride table and play optimal strategy I really believe that you would generally last three hours on $300. It has no similarity to DDB at all aside from it uses cards. It's a stud game.

Quote: Mission146

If you find a $5 Let It Ride table and play optimal strategy I really believe that you would generally last three hours on $300. It has no similarity to DDB at all aside from it uses cards. It's a stud game.

I watched a video on Let It Ride with Michael Shackleford and he said it's not a good game. He also said the house edge in about 3%. I'm there now.

Quote: Mission146

Look for a machine with a progressive (usually either two or four progressives) that has verbiage such as, "Must hit by," "Must hit," "Hits before," "Wins Before," "Must Award by," or some verbiage like that.

On a huge play (lots of coin in) that essentially couldn't happen percentage-wise, but you could sure as hell end up losing a lot more than twenty bucks.

Thanks for the exceptional detail. It doesn't look like I'm missing much.

What I think we're missing is the value of playing the game of video poker itself. We get a lot of entertainment for our money even playing 97% games. This is in part due to lessons learned from people like Bob Dancer. When I go to the casino, I see people all around me that don't have a clue how best to play. People keep aces when playing Deuces Wild and throw away deuces go for three to a royal. We are far from being APs that's for sure. From what I read here, I'm not sure we want to be. Why can't some people accept that this is OK?

Look back over this post. We just spent six pages discussing the games among ourselves. Maybe you didn't like some of what was said. It's better than listening to someone talk about their last royal.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I watched a video on Let It Ride with Michael Shackleford and he said it's not a good game. He also said the house edge in about 3%. I'm there now.

It's not, it's a terrible game from an EV standpoint. I thought you also wanted to talk about -EV gambling? If I was in a place with $5 tables (unlikely) and was inclined to play -EV table games (more unlikely) and had $100 or so I didn't care if I lost, in order, my choices would be:

1.) Let it Ride
2.) Pai-Gow Poker
3.) Ultimate Texas Hold Em
4.) Craps

I wouldn't lose the $100 on craps, however, because I typically leave the first time I seven out regardless of how I have done. I guess I don't really like Craps that much, either. UTH is fine, you can often find a situation where you are playing UTH at +EV but you don't really know it until it either happens or doesn't happen, unless you watch the table first.

Quote: Mission146

It's not, it's a terrible game from an EV standpoint. I thought you also wanted to talk about -EV gambling? If I was in a place with $5 tables (unlikely) and was inclined to play -EV table games (more unlikely) and had $100 or so I didn't care if I lost, in order, my choices would be:

1.) Let it Ride
2.) Pai-Gow Poker
3.) Ultimate Texas Hold Em
4.) Craps

I wouldn't lose the $100 on craps, however, because I typically leave the first time I seven out regardless of how I have done. I guess I don't really like Craps that much, either. UTH is fine, you can often find a situation where you are playing UTH at +EV but you don't really know it until it either happens or doesn't happen, unless you watch the table first.

I'm going to spend some time watching table game videos. I have always wanted to play those games.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Whenever she would discard, the card would flash on the deal and the same card would appear on the draw. I watched her for a while and saw it myself. We moved around and found a similar situation on numerous machines. Either the machines were rigged or the buttons were faulty.
I pity you.

As I said before, no matter what anybody ever comes up you'll either have a reason or excuse why it's not for you.

But whatever, we already know that.

Please elaborate: "Whenever she would discard, the card would flash on the deal and the same card would appear on the draw."

Quote: AxelWolf

Please elaborate: "Whenever she would discard, the card would flash on the deal and the same card would appear on the draw."

Tomorrow. I'm heading out now.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We are far from being APs that's for sure. From what I read here, I'm not sure we want to be.

It appears to me that it's your inability to persuade yourself that it's better to be a loser than a winner that has driven your whole disingenuous online campaign since you had the misfortune to discover that Bob Dancer (and +EV gambling in general) exist.

Quote: smurgerburger

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We are far from being APs that's for sure. From what I read here, I'm not sure we want to be.

It appears to me that it's your inability to persuade yourself that it's better to be a loser than a winner that has driven your whole disingenuous online campaign since you had the misfortune to discover that Bob Dancer (and +EV gambling in general) exist.

I'm wondering if we can trade a member in and get back Nathan?

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: smurgerburger

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We are far from being APs that's for sure. From what I read here, I'm not sure we want to be.

It appears to me that it's your inability to persuade yourself that it's better to be a loser than a winner that has driven your whole disingenuous online campaign since you had the misfortune to discover that Bob Dancer (and +EV gambling in general) exist.

I'm wondering if we can trade a member in and get back Nathan?

You all are harsh. While SCVP’s posts are repetitive and largely one-trick pony, it’s a legit gambling topic and fits the theme of the website: losing the min if you must play -EV games. The discussion of whether it’s better to play one coin or five coins on -EV VP is a legitimate topic. Sort of like asking whether it’s “better” to play $5min double zero roulette or $100 min single zero.

Quote: unJon

You all are harsh.

You're right, I've been too harsh.

HEY SINGLE COIN! Here is an image of a "must-hit". If you see something like this, play it.

Quote: unJon

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: smurgerburger

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We are far from being APs that's for sure. From what I read here, I'm not sure we want to be.

It appears to me that it's your inability to persuade yourself that it's better to be a loser than a winner that has driven your whole disingenuous online campaign since you had the misfortune to discover that Bob Dancer (and +EV gambling in general) exist.

I'm wondering if we can trade a member in and get back Nathan?

You all are harsh. While SCVP’s posts are repetitive and largely one-trick pony, it’s a legit gambling topic and fits the theme of the website: losing the min if you must play -EV games. The discussion of whether it’s better to play one coin or five coins on -EV VP is a legitimate topic. Sort of like asking whether it’s “better” to play $5min double zero roulette or $100 min single zero.

I get what you're saying, and I agree. As I pointed out before, there has been plenty of people that talk about playing for entertainment and nobody said anything negative to them. There is Absolutely nothing wrong with playing for entertainment. especially if you know what the deal is ( a quarter of a million per year doesn't seem like entertainment, I would call it something else, but whatever, to each his own). I have certainly played my fair share of -EV games.

But it certainly seems as if he's purposely trying to troll us, or whatever you want to call it. I was little suspicious at the beginning and then it was confirmed by someone else that he has a history of this sort of thing on other forums. I see Trig just chimed in, he's usually the last person to get involved in something like this, so that that right there is really telling you something.

Quote: bobbartop

You're right, I've been too harsh.

HEY SINGLE COIN! Here is an image of a "must-hit". If you see something like this, play it.

How dare you, he considers that vulturing and compares it with stealing abandoned slot tickets. He's above that, he would much rather lose 5 thousand a year playing single coin video poker.

A couple weeks ago I thought he was just regurgitating the same post over and over and over again. And then I learned the term “closet negative games player” from him and I love that phrase, and he did something like that and totally redeemed himself.

Quote: mcallister3200

A couple weeks ago I thought he was just regurgitating the same post over and over and over again. And then I learned the term “closet negative games player” from him and I love that phrase, and he did something like that and totally redeemed himself.

As opposed to slotting/slotter ("how's your slotting going today?")
That's a never been in the closet negative games player.

P.S. Kentry AKA Nathan made up the best casino story ever. I can still imagine it my mind as if it actually really happened.

For those who don't know here's the gist. Lost haircut money gambling, gives himself the worst haircut ever, mom finds out and kicks his ass.

edit.

Quote: AxelWolf

But it certainly seems as if he's purposely trying to troll us, or whatever you want to call it. I was little suspicious at the beginning and then it was confirmed by someone else that he has a history of this sort of thing on other forums. I see Trig just chimed in, he's usually the last person to get involved in something like this, so that that right there is really telling you something.

6 month suspension. He must have really made an effort.

Quote: bobbartop

See? As I said before, you are lazy. You claimed to look everywhere in AC and the Borgota and couldn't find any 9-6 JoB. That's such nonsense, you're just lazy. You mentioned only Red Rock in Vegas might have some FPDW, more nonsense. Lazy. And I don't feel sorry for you one bit. So you ask about "must hits"? Here's my advice. FIGURE IT OUT.

Quote: bobbartop

I gave him substance. I said he was lazy. Why should anyone here do ALL the work for him? Under other circumstances there might have been a lot of people here jumping to help him. He's not just lazy, he's stubborn. Imagine him saying that he looked all over Atlantic City and couldn't find any 9-6 JoB. That is so pathetic he doesn't deserve substance.

Pushed it too far in these posts, Bobbartop. A lot of name-calling and pejoratives. Personal insult. 3 days.

#FreeBobbartop

Let me see if I can identify where SCVP is coming from.

-He loses money at video poker.
-Something around $2500 per year, if he uses perfect strategy, which is a lot less than he used to lose in the past.
-One reason he thinks this is good is because it is less than what other people lose when they play. (I am certain that this is a lot more than most people).
-He thinks losing this amount of money is superior to other people who actually win money.
-He is always able to come up with some reason to dismiss anyone who describes ways to win money.
-He is not going to change how he plays, as he has evaluated every other way and has determined losing $2500 per year is best.
-He claims he just wants to talk with other people who play the way he does.
-Yet no one here is ever going to the things he does. Which he should know by know.
-Which means he is saying all this stuff for reasons other than what he claims.
-By saying these things over and over people here find him annoying, but we still engage with him.
-The big question: is he every going to stop saying these same things over and over?
-He seems to coming around to a slightly different place by looking into the possibility of table games, etc. I can already see some excuses coming, though: too loud, minimums too high.
-Or perhaps, losing 1.4% of every line bet on craps is going to become his new thing that makes him better than anyone who wins money at table games.
I did see a big sign yesterday for 25-cent craps and roulette machines. But my guess is that will fall under the go-to excuse of geography.

I'm sure this might come off as antagonizing or patronizing, but I'm trying to be objective

Quote: TomG

Let me see if I can identify where SCVP is coming from.

-He loses money at video poker.
-Something around $2500 per year, if he uses perfect strategy, which is a lot less than he used to lose in the past.
-One reason he thinks this is good is because it is less than what other people lose when they play. (I am certain that this is a lot more than most people).
-He thinks losing this amount of money is superior to other people who actually win money.
-He is always able to come up with some reason to dismiss anyone who describes ways to win money.
-He is not going to change how he plays, as he has evaluated every other way and has determined losing $2500 per year is best.
-He claims he just wants to talk with other people who play the way he does.
-Yet no one here is ever going to the things he does. Which he should know by know.
-Which means he is saying all this stuff for reasons other than what he claims.
-By saying these things over and over people here find him annoying, but we still engage with him.
-The big question: is he every going to stop saying these same things over and over?
-He seems to coming around to a slightly different place by looking into the possibility of table games, etc. I can already see some excuses coming, though: too loud, minimums too high.
-Or perhaps, losing 1.4% of every line bet on craps is going to become his new thing that makes him better than anyone who wins money at table games.
I did see a big sign yesterday for 25-cent craps and roulette machines. But my guess is that will fall under the go-to excuse of geography.

I'm sure this might come off as antagonizing or patronizing, but I'm trying to be objective

craps is too loud and roulette is about 2% worse than he's already playing.

But yeah, pretty much. I thought he lost more than $2,500 a year for some reason, but perhaps I missed something. I assume there's got to be some tipping in there somewhere and as frequently as he goes and as long as he stays I would have to believe that adds up pretty quick.

Quote: AxelWolf

craps is too loud and roulette is about 2% worse than he's already playing.

But yeah, pretty much. I thought he lost more than $2,500 a year for some reason, but perhaps I missed something. I assume there's got to be some tipping in there somewhere and as frequently as he goes and as long as he stays I would have to believe that adds up pretty quick.

The $2500 is 0.25 x 250 000 x 0.04. If he ever plays hands above 25-cents, he would be losing even more. Can't be getting any hand pays at that level, so any tips would be for drinks and meals. Most people wouldn't consider that 'losing money at a casino'

Quote: TomG

-The big question: is he every going to stop saying these same things over and over?

The bigger question: Are you guys ever going to stop responding?

Quote: Calder

The bigger question: Are you guys ever going to stop responding?

Exactly.

This guy loves attention posting the same stuff over and over again.

Reminds me of a certain poster in the past.

You know the one you have in mind.

Shilling for a website.

Ya I warned about this guy right after he joined. Babs told me to lay off and give him space. So I have stayed away as I knew the more he posted the more he would get under people's skin. I see we now have the first person suspended who got frustrated. There will be more.

Mission you are wasting a lot of words. They go in one ear and out the other. I admire you are trying to help but we did this for years and it only got worse as he will just rinse and repeat.

I imagine on table games, he will claim Wonging out sounds too much like vulturing

Quote: TomG

The $2500 is 0.25 x 250 000 x 0.04. If he ever plays hands above 25-cents, he would be losing even more. Can't be getting any hand pays at that level, so any tips would be for drinks and meals. Most people wouldn't consider that 'losing money at a casino'

When is he playing 0.04?

Quote: TomG

The $2500 is 0.25 x 250 000 x 0.04. If he ever plays hands above 25-cents, he would be losing even more. Can't be getting any hand pays at that level, so any tips would be for drinks and meals. Most people wouldn't consider that 'losing money at a casino'

if you're doing something frequently enough for entertainment and it's costing you more than it normally would, I would say you have to count it. If you go to the cheapo movie theaters end up spending $5 for a drink then I think you have to count that as an entertainment cost as opposed to the normal living expenses.

Great comments.

You don't know me or anything about me other than what you read. I could be the President of the United States or a Walmart Greeter. All I will say is I am an investment entrepreneur and leave it at that.

I like playing video poker. I play a lot of video poker. It's my hobby and a main source of my entertainment. I enjoy talking with other video poker players. They could be professionals or beginners. I find all players interesting. An Internet Forum is a place for conversation. For some reason, video poker forums are battlefields. This seems strange to me, but the enjoyment I get out of these conversations is worth the hassle.

I am sorry I chose the forum name SingleCoinVP. It leads members to think I am promoting single coin play. I am not. What I do say is playing single coin has it's place for those who wish to play as long and as cheap as possible. When I'm 95 years old and they have to wheel me into the casino, what harm would come from playing cheap?

I never said playing single coin is more profitable than playing max coins. Lots of people imagined I did. When you play single coin quarter VP all day, walk up to a $5 game, put in a twenty and win $1,000, you make a profit. If this happens to you more than once a year, you make a long term profit. I am sorry if that offends some people, but it happened.

I do not have anything against professional gamblers or Advantage Play. Where we disagree is the inference that jackpots are owed. Sadly, they are not. It is totally possible to go ten royal cycles or more without hitting one. An adequately funded AP could survive, most players could not. "RISK" is never zero. I know there are some people who would dispute this. I am not concerned with proving or disproving it. I am concerned about the financial harm that could come from the attempt.

If all you want in a forum is to hear the same boring questions over and over again, you will get what you want. This forum will be filled with photos of jackpots, math charts and nice stories that verify your convictions. If you want to discuss tough issues, ask some tough questions. You may not like the poster's answer. You do not need to attack him. Few people agree on everything all the time.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I do not have anything against professional gamblers or Advantage Play. Where we disagree is the inference that jackpots are owed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

"A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent."

SingleCoin, please comment further on the Borgata malfunctions.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

About seven PM my wife noticed something weird happening with the machines. Whenever she would discard, the card would flash on the deal and the same card would appear on the draw. I watched her for a while and saw it myself. We moved around and found a similar situation on numerous machines. Either the machines were rigged or the buttons were faulty.

This is not the first time you've encountered weird machine behavior. If I understand correctly, your implementation of the Cheap Strategy was based on observations that wild cards come in spurts.

Quote: HugoSlavia

SingleCoin, please comment further on the Borgata malfunctions.


This is not the first time you've encountered weird machine behavior. If I understand correctly, your implementation of the Cheap Strategy was based on observations that wild cards come in spurts.

I want to make sure I get the all the facts straight on the Borgata visit so I don't create false conclusions. Give me some time and I will post the facts.

There are many misconceptions about CS. Players are quick to jump to false conclusions.

Wild card games are notoriously for their streaks. Anyone who plays them knows this. I don't believe it is possible to predict or profit from these streaks. All hands in VP are totally independent. In CS, you play 90% of your hands at single coin. The benefit is more seat time per dollar wagered. Playing single coin quarter VP is as boring a thing as you can imagine. By adding a trigger to increase your bet mid play (4 coin win), you restore the possibility of a max coin jackpot. This restores the anticipation factor and the entertainment value. It also significantly increases the variance.

It is very difficult to play single coin VP without some incentive other than cheap play. In CS, you will hit single coin jackpots often. You will also hit some max coin jackpots. When you do, moving back to single coin play keeps you from feeding them back into the machine. CS is NOT a long term winning strategy. Neither is feeding max coins into a 97% video poker game.

I hardly ever use CS anymore. I prefer to save my money, go to the casino less and play max coins.

Perhaps a short history of CS would help you to understand why it exists.

Starting around 2004, my wife and I were frequent customers at Casino Magic and the Beau Rivage in Biloxi Mississippi. The odds were good and it wasn't difficult to find decent pay tables all over town. I was a dollar player back then and received a lot of mailers and offers. Most of them included airfare, lodging and food. These trips were normally three night stays requiring us to play in the casino. Both of us did well. In one 24 hour period, I hit four royals in one day. Three were for $4,000 and one for $1,000. We made 4-6 trips a year and knew the staff by their first names.

After Katrina, things changed. The VP odds began to drop on machines all over Biloxi. 9/6 Jacks turned into 8/5. There were still a few playable games at the IP and the Gulf View. Our results took a serious downturn. Some time later, 8/5 Jacks turned into 7/5 even in the high room. 98.9% Deuces Wild turned into 97%. When we complained, they upgraded our room to an end suite. Eventually, we figured out the only way to survive these trips was to play cheaper.

I read about a strategy called frugal video poker where the amount of coins wagered was incremented by the last hand's result and I tried it. It didn't work for me. You were constantly using up your winnings. I modified that strategy to switch to max coins only on four coin wins. The first time I tried it was in Blackhawk Colorado. I was dealt four to a royal on one of my max coin hands and got the fifth card. It continued to work for me, so I moved up to dollar machines. That worked too and I experimented with $5 machines. I have yet to hit a max coin $5 quad deuce or royal. The photo below shows the results of a max coin bet after a single coin $5 quad deuce. Keep in mind I was playing single coin quarter VP 90% of the time and never put more than $20 in a $5 machine each hour.

After many years of experimentation, I can tell you CS is not for anyone who has access to Advantage games. If you do, play like the experts tell you. If all you have is 97% VP and you wish to play often, CS may save you some money.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Give me some time and I will post the facts.

There are many misconceptions about CS. Players are quick to jump to false conclusions.

OK thanks.

The players didn't jump; you pushed them. I quoted from this previously, but here's the full link for context:

https://www.videopoker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=82201#p82201

Quote:

You can beat a negative expectation video poker machine long term, but you must rethink the entire process.
...
The Cheap Strategy does not rely on Royals Flushes to win long term. It works because ....

Several months later, the story changed.

https://www.videopoker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=88869#p88869

Quote:

I never once claimed CS was a way to win, I always said it was a way to play longer and lose less.

This is why people are confused.

Click through the post if you want to see the response from Bob Dancer.

Quote: vegas

Mission you are wasting a lot of words. They go in one ear and out the other. I admire you are trying to help but we did this for years and it only got worse as he will just rinse and repeat.

Maybe someone else reading will find them useful. Probably not.

Quote: HugoSlavia

This is why people are confused. Click through the post if you want to see the response from Bob Dancer.

CS was always a work in progress. I made many mistakes along the way. As I remember, Bob Dancer was most concerned about my moving out of quarter play. He felt this was "dangerous". I was always able to limit my max coin bets, so it wasn't dangerous for me. I am well funded, even for $5 games. Others may not have that advantage, so Bob was right about that. I don't play $5 games at max coins because the risk is too great for my own personal risk threshold.

The fact is playing less hands or wagering less money cuts losses when playing seriously negative video poker games. No matter how you do that, your end result will be better. If the game plus comps, incentives, free play, Etc. is positive, don't even think about CS.

I still haven't had a drink since March, which means I am actually reading this right.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Great comments.

You don't know me or anything about me other than what you read. I could be the President of the United States or a Walmart Greeter. All I will say is I am an investment entrepreneur and leave it at that.

I don't even know about you from what I have read. I know what you have typed.

Quote:

I like playing video poker. I play a lot of video poker. It's my hobby and a main source of my entertainment. I enjoy talking with other video poker players. They could be professionals or beginners. I find all players interesting. An Internet Forum is a place for conversation. For some reason, video poker forums are battlefields. This seems strange to me, but the enjoyment I get out of these conversations is worth the hassle.

You love video poker. Video poker forums are battlefields. "Love is a battlefield."-Pat Benatar Just be strong and no one can tell you you're wrong. Keep searching your heart for so long, both of us knowing, WoV is a battlefield.

Quote:

I am sorry I chose the forum name SingleCoinVP. It leads members to think I am promoting single coin play. I am not. What I do say is playing single coin has it's place for those who wish to play as long and as cheap as possible. When I'm 95 years old and they have to wheel me into the casino, what harm would come from playing cheap?

Single-coin pennies if you can find it. Or videopoker.com, which is completely free.

Quote:

I never said playing single coin is more profitable than playing max coins. Lots of people imagined I did. When you play single coin quarter VP all day, walk up to a $5 game, put in a twenty and win $1,000, you make a profit. If this happens to you more than once a year, you make a long term profit. I am sorry if that offends some people, but it happened.

Did anyone say it didn't? Is it really such an unusual event that someone moves up in denom and catches a lucky hand?

Quote:

I do not have anything against professional gamblers or Advantage Play. Where we disagree is the inference that jackpots are owed. Sadly, they are not. It is totally possible to go ten royal cycles or more without hitting one. An adequately funded AP could survive, most players could not. "RISK" is never zero. I know there are some people who would dispute this. I am not concerned with proving or disproving it. I am concerned about the financial harm that could come from the attempt.

The advantage play community---profoundly concerned with your opinion of them---thanks you and is glad the air could be cleared on this.

I have never heard an advantage player say in a non-sardonic way that a machine OWES him or her a jackpot. I have never heard an advantage player say it is impossible to go ten royal cycles without hitting one. If you have, that person is likely not a great advantage player.

Risk is sometimes zero. I gave you an example already.

Yes, if you gamble, financial harm can befall you. Most people are not cut out to be APs, and of those who are, many of those are not adequately bankrolled to do it as a primary source of income.

Who has disputed any of these things?

Quote:

If all you want in a forum is to hear the same boring questions over and over again, you will get what you want. This forum will be filled with photos of jackpots, math charts and nice stories that verify your convictions. If you want to discuss tough issues, ask some tough questions. You may not like the poster's answer. You do not need to attack him. Few people agree on everything all the time.

Why do you say we will get what we want, because you're going to give it to us?

As far as verification of convictions is concerned...I have seen math used on this forum more to DISPROVE convictions more than it has been to verify them, but whatever you want to think. Math is math. Math does not lie. Math does not play favorites.

All valid points. I may not agree with you, but I will defend your right to say it. So far we have had this discussion without name calling or insults. How refreshing! All I want is for every opinion to be open to discussion.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

You don't know me or anything about me other than what you read. I could be the President of the United States or a Walmart Greeter.

Based on your earlier comments, I assumed you are Phil from Eustis Florida and that you do websites.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

As I remember, Bob Dancer was most concerned about my moving out of quarter play. He felt this was "dangerous".

Here's what Bob wrote:

Quote:

The part I object to was magically knowing the right time to increase your single quarter bet to five coin quarters --- and then to five coin dollars. Anybody who says he can reliably predict when to do that is touting voodoo video poker --- whether he sells his advice or gives it away for free. And saying over and over again "I won 3 years in a row!" That's the part of the message that many people here are getting misled by. That's the part that is dangerous to many players here.

He was concerned about the voodoo underlying the CS system.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150411001543/http://www.cheapvideopoker.com/video-poker-basics.html

Quote:

An interesting phenomenon occurs in Deuces Wild, the hands are dealt randomly from the deck but the deuces seem to come in spurts which makes for a sort of rhythm of play. For example, you may have 30-40 hands without much happening and all of a sudden you get 6 hands with deuces in them that pay well. This is very common in wild card games and I believe it is possible to take advantage of this quirk.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150412001913/http://www.cheapvideopoker.com/cheap-video-poker-system.html

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It takes less money to play deuces wild because the game has a tendency to run in small streaks of good and bad hands which plays right into the strategy.

Quote:

Wild card games like deuces wild are very streaky. This is because the wild cards (deuces) normally appear in groups. They go away for a while then return, which makes the game feel like a boat ride on a wavy day. The normal Cheap Video Poker Strategy says to return to single coin play after every losing max coin hand. However, if you are riding an extended upswing of good hands and you lose a hand, consider staying at max coins for 2 more hands.

And Bob was concerned that your frequent references to a winning streak implied claims of validity for your system.

Bob was right to be concerned. I am concerned that Bob leads people into believing Advantage Play strategy removes risk. Neither of us stated this directly, but it is inferred.

Quote: DRich

Based on your earlier comments, I assumed you are Phil from Eustis Florida and that you do websites.

Since you asked, I have had many careers over the fifty plus years I have been working. I started a business in my early twenties repairing accounting equipment. That business turned into a sizeable computer services and software company. I retired in my fifties. My wife became involved in Real Estate in 2002 and asked me to help her with her marketing. I built her websites and provide internet consulting to a number of personal clients. My wife is one of the most successful Realtors in Central Florida. I am an active stock and Real Estate investor. Is there anything else you want to know?

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I am concerned that Bob leads people into believing Advantage Play strategy removes risk. Neither of us stated this directly, but it is inferred.

Ridiculous. Try quoting Bob directly so we can judge for ourselves.