Unadvantage Play
I would never pilfer a banana from a buffet. I might see how many cookies I can fit my pockets.Quote: DRichMost AP's are not just interested in video poker. They will look for advantage slots, coupons, etc, I think Axel even AP's the buffet. That is my only explanation of why Axel sticks bananas down his pants at the buffet.
I don't think I've ever stolen a continental breakfast (-;
SingleCoinVP should get that given his perceived obsession with Bob Dancer.
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I know you already know this. There's a hefty list and a wide range of things Advantage Players do to gain an advantage. New stuff is always coming up sometimes old stuff pops up again, things are always changing. there's stuff only one or two people are doing and things very few people will ever hear about. Are some Advantage players that focus on just one thing and then there are some that try to do as many different things as possible. I know some Advantage Players that refuse to travel outside Southern Nevada and then there are Advantage players players that travel the entire world. There's guys that were playing in the late 70s and they're still playing to this day.
Quote: darkozI will begin to write the VP book you request.
Dont worry about how awful a player I am since the goal is not to help you win but simply go on losing, just at a slower rate.
Unfortunately for you, I have to contractually finish the book about helping people sing better.
From my inside jacket cover:
Millions of people love to sing but few actually can. This book is for you! The person who sounds awful and has no chance at ever sounding good professionally.
SINGING FOR THOSE WHO CANT BUT LIKE TO BELT OUT TUNES ANYWAY helps those musically wishful people with bad rythms, orchestrations and timbre succeed at annoying other people less.
Since most people wont become singers who can get paid for their voices, this book is directed at those people to show them how they can improve their singing so that they annoy less people, still have no hope of singing professionally but at least wont be so scratchingly annoying that other people tell you to shut up.
Using the techniques in this book, you will only make people turn away in disgust, not actually scream at you.
Anyway, Singlecoin, I tbink its a grest idea for a book series. The How to Almost beat...
Look for them in bookstores everywhere
Actually, I would be interested in such a book. I am a terrible singer, and would love to improve enough so that I don't embarrass myself when I sing. So maybe this is not a good example.
Quote: DRichMost AP's are not just interested in video poker. They will look for advantage slots, coupons, etc, I think Axel even AP's the buffet. That is my only explanation of why Axel sticks bananas down his pants at the buffet.
Are you sure thats a banana down his pants
:)
Then I hear about lucrative drawings, giant progressives, free cruises, million dollar suites and all kinds of valuable incentives. Not where I play. I have only won one drawing in 20 years of play. I could fill my closets with free booze, hats, jackets and ice tea glasses. Unless I open up a booth at the flea market, I don't think they can turn my games positive any time soon.
I don't envy professional gamblers. I have a tough enough time keeping my retirement money positive, much less depend on a RNG to pay my bills. I also believe most APs have money from somewhere other than a casino. In Mr. Dancer's books he talks about his father's real estate business. I assume he left some of it to his son. That's doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments. It would explain why losing doesn't bother him as much as it does most people.
Anyway, I hope I have shed some light on why those old men you see in the casino are betting single coin quarters. Our drinks are still free. Our chairs are still soft. We still win once in a while and we aren't losing a lot of money. If that still doesn't satisfy you, think about this. If your seventy or eighty something father or mother was going to the casino on a regular basis, would you want them to play single coin quarters or $25 a hand?
Quote: DRichMost AP's are not just interested in video poker. They will look for advantage slots, coupons, etc, I think Axel even AP's the buffet. That is my only explanation of why Axel sticks bananas down his pants at the buffet.
That or he's just happy to see you.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
I don't envy professional gamblers. I also believe most APs have money from somewhere other than a casino.
My AP bankroll comes solely from AP.
I started with three pennies in my pocket (basically nothing) while homeless. Everything I currently own comes from AP and the money I have won from casinos.
There are many examples of people who had almost nothing when they started. I didn't have a car, a bank account, I had to have a roommate(she was very cute so that's okay) I was making a little over eight bucks an hour and some occasional inconsistent tips living paycheck-to-paycheck and never had more than a few hundred extra dollars a month. It wasn't long before all that all drastically changed for me from advantage play, it took some months, however, it almost seems like it was overnight. I can honestly say without a doubt getting involved with Advantage play was the best thing that ever happened to me(up until I met my wife of course)Quote: SingleCoinVPThanks for the reply. I have long contended that APs are playing different games than we do. I'm not sure what those games are and I don't think it wouldn't do me much good to know. My assumption was they only play games where the odds including the comps are +EV. I have not seen enough of those games to make it worth talking about.
Then I hear about lucrative drawings, progressives, free cruises, million dollar suites and all kind of valuable incentives. I have only won one drawing in 20 years of play. I could fill my closets with free booze, hats, jackets and ice tea glasses. Unless I open up a booth at the flea market, I don't think they can turn my games positive any time soon.
I don't envy professional gamblers. I have a tough enough time keeping my retirement money positive, much less depend on a RNG for a meal. I also believe most APs had money to start with. In Mr. Dancer's books he talks about his father real estate business. I assume he left some of it to his son. That's doesn't take anything away from his accomplishments. It would explain why losing doesn't bother him as much as it does me.
Anyway, I hope I have shed some light on why those old men you see in the casino are betting single coin quarters. We aren't hurting anyone. Our drinks are still free. We also aren't losing a lot of money. If that still doesn't satisfy you, think about this. If your seventy or eighty something father or mother was going to the casino on a regular basis, would you want them to play single coin quarters or $25 a hand?
I knew an advantage player well who is very successful now, but when he first started he was living in his car while delivering pizza part time. Have a few more examples but I think you get the point.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI believe you are correct. I may not know what an advantage player is. I assume they only play video poker when they have an advantage. My experience tells me they wouldn't play many hands.
For a full time player, it would be possible to play more than 250,000 hands per year with the player having the advantage for every one of them: https://sunsetstation.sclv.com/~/media/Images/Promotions/Corporate/Gaming/POKER_100.jpg?mw=460
Quote: SingleCoinVPI told you why I play the way I do. The math says I'm saving money by doing so.
The math says that what you do loses 3-4% of all money played. To say that is saving money is not math, it is rationalizing.
Now he's going to tell you how he doesn't have those in Florida and he can't play computer perfect.Quote: TomGFor a full time player, it would be possible to play more than 250,000 hands per year with the player having the advantage for every one of them: https://sunsetstation.sclv.com/~/media/Images/Promotions/Corporate/Gaming/POKER_100.jpg?mw=460
The math says that what you do loses 3-4% of all money played. To say that is saving money is not math, it is rationalizing.
My attitude toward APs and professional gambling has changed over the years. The only one I know anything about is Bob Dancer. All I know is what he has written about and said on the radio. I don't believe he is a typical AP. It's a stretch for me to believe he went from working a job to making a million dollars playing video poker without some financial advantage to back him up. Mr. Dancer is a very intelligent man. He created a video poker cash flow machine selling his software, books and services. I'm not sure all the players living off the casinos were happy about this? I respect him as a businessman and a gambling expert.Quote: smurgerburgerHe's like EvenBob or Rob Singer. Nothing you can say will ever cause him to deviate from his anti-AP script.
As far as Rob Singer is concerned, I think he brings up some valid points. I don't agree with everything he says. I don't know if he makes money playing video poker. Like Bob Dancer, I have never seen his tax returns. The one thing that is unclear to me is his strategy of moving up in variance and denomination to chase losses. I think the better path is to walk out a loser before you jump off a cliff.
It is very hard for a small time player like me to envision anyone making money by playing video poker. I don't see any advantage possible. I have watched the odds drop from 99% to 96%. Video poker machines are taken off the floor and replaced with slots. Video poker free play and comps have been reduced. Frankly, none of the games I play are worth anything except to kill time. If it wasn't for the free hotel stays, I would find something else to do with my leisure time. My wife and I enjoy staying overnight at casinos. We use these as cheap vacations and have we have figured out how to keep from over paying.
I can only assume successful APs must be doing things I can't imagine and leave it at that. I do not think it's a good idea to encourage people into addictive behavior under the pretense of making a profit. This is something that few people can make happen no matter how intelligent they are. APs and gambling book writers should make this as clear as possible.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
I can only assume successful APs must be doing things I can't imagine and leave it at that. I do not think it's a good idea to encourage people into addictive behavior under the pretense of making a profit. This is something that few people can make happen no matter how intelligent they are. APs and gambling book writers should make this as clear as possible.
I don't know anyone that is a successful casino AP that seems addicted to gambling. Some poker players on the other hand seem to have more vices.
I might be considered a part time AP and I am personally sick and tired of gambling.
Quote: DRichI don't know anyone that is a successful casino AP that seems addicted to gambling. Some poker players on the other hand seem to have more vices.
I might be considered a part time AP and I am personally sick and tired of gambling.
Yeah I had an ex-girlfriend tell me I was addicted to gambling.
I pointed out this is how I made my money.
She claimed my going every day made me addicted.
So I guess people who work at Burger King are addicted because they go every day?
Quote: AxelWolfNot true. It's ungodly therefore it's a sin. Wasting money on frivolous things it's certainly a sin. Having excess money above and beyond what it takes to take care of you and your family is certainly a sin.
Of course, this is all assuming people believe in God and the teachings of the Bible.
The fact that we're even arguing about it should be proof enough that not even God could make it clear whether he approves of it or not... ;)
Quote: AxelWolfNow he's going to tell you how he doesn't have those in Florida and he can't play computer perfect.
Yeah, he has for years. The discussions always lead in a circle. The ridiculously hands-off moderator there finally got tired of it.
Not true. I was warned not to discuss Bob Dancer and I went over the line. How you can discuss video poker without mentioning his strategy is beyond me. "Bob Dancer" is not a real person. The enterprise Bob Dancer uses Internet Forums to market products and services. That is smart business. The person behind the fictitious name has the same problem that our current President does, he doesn't handle disagreement well. When he is confronted with discussions he doesn't like, he says he is going on vacation and leaves the forum to "punish" the transgressors.Quote: tringlomaneYeah, he has for years. The discussions always lead in a circle. The ridiculously hands-off moderator there finally got tired of it.
He made two separate posts that I had serious disagreement with. One was the gambler son-in-law post and the other was when he stated Advantage Players are more intelligent than everyone else. Even if it's true, why say it? If it is true, why don't we fire all the doctors, college professors, scientists and world wide experts and just hire APs? I couldn't put up with it anymore and said he should apologize to the forum. Mr Dancer does not like contrarians, so I was banned.
Hopefully, this issue is behind us. I believe Mr. Dancer has said a lot of things over the years that he is sorry for, as have I. My only purpose for being on these forums is to converse with other players like me who play video poker to have fun. There should be no harm in discussing anything related to video poker on any forum. If your strategy involves raising your bet when a dog comes into the casino, I want you to be able to talk about it without being insulted. How else are we going to learn anything? Just so you know, my dog doesn't gamble.
Experts are quick to tell players how to beat the casino. They say to only play when you have the advantage, play computer perfect and have a bankroll big enough to out last any downturn. So far, so good. The only thing they say about negative games is not to play them.
Here's the problem. Advantage games are very difficult to find these days, no one that I know of can play 100% computer perfect forever and hardly anyone has an unlimited bankroll. What does this mean? It means if you play overall negative games most people are going to pay to play. Why don't experts talk about playing the games most of us play? Do they want players to lose more? Are they afraid the casinos will be mad at them if they hear that from an expert?
Maybe that guy that sat down next to me last week playing $5 8/5 Double Double Bonus is a billionaire and could care less if he loses. You know what they say "The best way to become a millionaire is to start with a billion dollars and work your way down."
Quote: SingleCoinVPAnother issue is some people say I repeat myself. I do because no one is saying what needs to be said.
Experts are quick to tell players how to beat the casino. They say to only play when you have the advantage, play computer perfect and have a bankroll big enough to out last any downturn. I agree. The only thing they say about negative games is not to play them.
Here's the problem. Advantage games are very difficult to find these days, no one that I know of can play 100% computer perfect forever and hardly anyone has an unlimited bankroll. What does this mean? It means if you play overall negative games most people are going to pay to play. Why don't experts talk about playing the games most of us play? Do they want players to lose more? Are they afraid the casinos will be mad at them if they hear that from an expert?
Maybe that guy that sat down next to me last week playing $5 8/5 Double Double Bonus is a billionaire and could care less if he loses. You know what they say "The best way to become a millionaire is to start with a billion dollars and work your way down."
I'm usually one of the biggest skeptics aroind when it comes to stuff like that. And I really dislike the fact that Bob Dancer (or anyone) writes and teaches the public how to AP. However, I 100% believe he did make over a million dollars playing video poker. I and many others have witnessed Bob Dancer on some really good plays over the years while playing some of the same things at the same times. Some of those thing's were slam dunks. Count in all the other stuff he's had without much competition and you can bet your life he's made what he claims on advantage play. Even when you separate his books, classes, and GWAE and other side gigs.Quote: SingleCoinVPMy attitude toward APs and professional gambling has changed over the years. The only one I know anything about is Bob Dancer. All I know is what he has written about and said on the radio. I don't believe he is a typical AP. It's a stretch for me to believe he went from working a job to making a million
AP's can usually spot BS when they hear or see it. I don't know any AP that actually knows that they are talking about that isn't confident Bob Dancer has crushed it.
Unfortunately, I do. However, they are addicted to +EV only.Quote: DRichI don't know anyone that is a successful casino AP that seems addicted to gambling. Some poker players on the other hand seem to have more vices.
I might be considered a part time AP and I am personally sick and tired of gambling.
Phil says lets move on. Then he will start another new thread with the same things. Babs told me to butt out and leave Phil alone. I am trying Babs but he makes it difficult and you will notice many others have chimed in.
There was a time when I doubted his claims. I played "no money" video poker against other players on another website for a couple of years. The game I played was a +EV game. They started you out with 10,000 points. My point balance grew to 40,000 points when I quit playing. Even though I wasn't playing for real, that result changed my mind.Quote: AxelWolfI'm usually one of the biggest skeptics aroind when it comes to stuff like that. And I really dislike the fact that Bob Dancer (or anyone) writes and teaches the public how to AP.
Playing video poker requires a revenue source. You don't walk in homeless with no money and start hitting royals. I am certain Bob Dancer has a huge bankroll. I don't think he got it by managing databases. I'm sure it took years and a lot of discipline.
I am sure there are many people who wish he wouldn't have let the cat out of the bag. I'm positive the odds reductions we are seeing are due to better players. If it wasn't him, someone would have done it. Even though I'm not an AP, I'm thankful.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
I am sure there are many people who wish he wouldn't have let the cat out of the bag. I'm positive the odds reductions we are seeing are due to better players. If it wasn't him, someone would have done it. Even though I'm not an AP, I'm thankful.
I first remember reading about AP video poker from Lenny Fromme. I bought his book.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI'm positive the odds reductions we are seeing are due to better players.
I don't think so. I think casinos have learned that people will play games with 10%-15% holds so have a small hold video poker machine just brings down their house average. Sadly, I see lots of people everyday playing 5% hold video poker.
I dont know how much Bob had when he started. I certanly dont think he was pumped up from what I belive he indicated. IIRC he started playing .25 at a small casino that offered some really good easy to win drawings he pretty much had locked up.Quote: SingleCoinVPThere was a time when I doubted his claims. I played "no money" video poker against other players on another website for a couple of years. The game I played was a +EV game. They started you out with 10,000 points. My point balance grew to 40,000 points when I quit playing. Even though I wasn't playing for real, that result changed my mind.
Playing video poker requires a revenue source. You don't walk in homeless with no money and start hitting royals. I am certain Bob Dancer has a huge bankroll. I don't think he got it by managing databases. I'm sure it took years and a lot of discipline.
I am sure there are many people who wish he wouldn't have let the cat out of the bag. I'm positive the odds reductions we are seeing are due to better players. If it wasn't him, someone would have done it. Even though I'm not an AP, I'm thankful.
Agian, Im very very skeptical you read any of his books. since I know all that just from the stuff I have read online here and there.
you must hwve ignored my oist where there have been morw tuan one person that started with nothing and no other income ans did very well.
Both times iirc he cut them out extremely quickly after making a little money to the point there there would have been close to zero chance they would have invested in him had they know he was going to pull that, that quickly. negative EV for them when if you run bad you eat all the loss but as soon as you make any amount of money it’s over. Maybe not if it was a high edge low variance play but they weren’t of course which is surely why he wanted an investor.
It would depend on what the deal is. If it was some kind of free roll deal then I agree with you that's -EV for the investor. If he's just selling off the rest of the action he can't afford where he's taking a percentage of both the win and losses then it shouldn't matter if he plays one hand or one million hands.Quote: mcallister3200According to his book, he had an investor a couple times when finding a play above his bankroll.
Both times iirc he cut them out extremely quickly after making a little money to the point there there would have been close to zero chance they would have invested in him had they know he was going to pull that, that quickly. negative EV for them when if you run bad you eat all the loss but as soon as you make any amount of money it’s over. Maybe not if it was a high edge low variance play but they weren’t of course which is surely why he wanted an investor.
I'm not saying it's ok to do. You shouldn't ever make a deal and back out unless something unusual happens.
Fallacy math, I think it's obvious. You're counting hands played and not coins gambled. Have to compare apples to apples. Maybe per chance you could try stuffing as many people possible into the seat next. Five people betting 1 coin together think about it.Quote: SingleCoinVPI believe you are correct. I may not know what an advantage player is. I assume they only play video poker when they have an advantage. My experience tells me they wouldn't play many hands. I have played video poker at numerous casinos around the country. When I plug the payouts into my VPW software, it tells me 99% of the games are negative. I always use a player's card wherever I play. When I check their comps, they are never enough to overcome the negative odds.
I asked a question on another forum once. I challenged anyone to give me an example of a video poker game where the player had an advantage. The only answer I got was scalping Ultimate X multipliers. I went to my local casino to check this out. I found a few. So what do I do after I played that hand? Does an AP walk around the Ultimate X games waiting for someone to leave? This is not playing video poker. This seems like garbage picking. If I walk around the casino looking for tickets on the floor, is that advantage play?
I told you why I play the way I do. The math says I'm saving money by doing so. No one here is going to play single coin quarters, I get that. What APs do does not work for me. I don't have the games, discipline, skill or endurance. I'm not alone.
The factor you are missing in your calculations is "playing time". This is very important to a Recreational player. We play video poker for entertainment. Playing single coin extends playing time.Quote: onenickelmiracleFallacy math, I think it's obvious. You're counting hands played and not coins gambled. Have to compare apples to apples. Maybe per chance you could try stuffing as many people possible into the seat next. Five people betting 1 coin together think about it.
The Beau Rivage in Biloxi will fly you there and back for free. You will be stuck in their casino for 3 days. All the games are 97%. I can tell you from experience in three days of playing max coin quarter 97% video poker, you will lose around $1,500 unless you hit a royal which only happens a few times a year. These are nice trips. The Beau Rivage is a beautiful hotel.
Playing single coin quarters at the Beau Rivage kills time. I pull my card when I do so. It's practically the same as not playing. It's a way to hold down the cost of playing bad games and it works. The trick is finding the correct amount of max coin play to satisfy MGM so they invite you back. The gamble is you will hit a $62.50 royal. You will save more money doing this than playing max coins the whole time.
None of this has anything to do with Advantage Play. That is a different world of VP. If the Beau Rivage had better games, I would play max coins all the time. They don't, so I don't
I also understand different people get "entertainment" out of different styles of gambling, especially if they gamble infrequently. My friend playing $5/spin on VP might be super entertained by doing that while for me that may be damn near close to torture (except the fact I'd be playing something +EV, so it can't be too bad).
What I simply cannot comprehend is how the **** can it be entertaining to play 250,000 hands of 25c VP in a year??? That just boggles my mind. I can see how someone would be entertained if they're playing something where they can win a lot of money -- big royals or AWAK on VP, or they hit a huge bonus round on slots, or they just run really good and press their bets and make a huge killing on table games. For me, it's more entertaining, or I'll just call it "fun" is the actual making of money -- that theoretically the more you play, the more money you'll make...if I play for 10, or 100, or maybe 1,000 hours then I'll be up some handsome amount of money. To me that's fun.
The way you say that you play, well, it has none of that. You can't run really really good and make a killing -- and if somehow you do run really good one day, well damn, you know the math well enough to know that ain't gonna last and best case scenario you just win back enough so you get another few weeks of "free" gambling (maybe). Which ties into the other in that it's clearly and obviously -EV.
Grinding out a -EV game just has to be the most boring thing ever. I'm having trouble thinking up a similar analogy. It'd be like being on a construction crew and your boss telling you to go dig a 5 foot hole over there, so you go do that. Afterwards, you ask your boss what you should do next. He says to take all the dirt you dug up and put it back into the hole. Hmmm, okay, maybe there was a mistake or there's a change of plans, this sucks but whatever. After that, boss tells you to go re-dig that same hole and when you're done, fill it back up. Then do it again, and again, and again. Pretty boring, right? Oh, but you're also losing money the entire time, to make the analogy fit.
The fault is not in your math. Its in your own statement logic.
REPEATEDLY you state you dont AP because you dont understand or have the opportunity or patience so you just play for fun.
This implies that if you DID HAVE the opportunity or knowledge or patience that you would AP.
Question: If your local casino offered suddenly a slew of +ev VP, +103%, at max coin only, with low volatility, would you still play single coin?
Would you now say, "yes, I have every opportunity to AP, win money, and fairly consistently but choose not too?
Thats a serious question. Because if you are simply saying you dont AP because you cant thats fine. But it means you would quickly become an AP if you could.
Sour grapes seems to be your attitude. Whats the old Aesop's fable about the wolf who cant reach the grapes? Well, they were probably sour anyway.
Read Aesop. Very enlightening.
Hell No! When I find games with less than a 1% house edge, I always play max coins. Comps and incentives can make those games worth playing. If I had low volatility +EV games to play all the time, I would play much bigger than I do now.Quote: darkozQuestion: If your local casino offered suddenly a slew of +ev VP, +103%, at max coin only, with low volatility, would you still play single coin?
Years ago, I used to play 9/6 dollar Jacks or Better in Biloxi. After Katrina, the games changed. Florida casinos have no competition. They are a gold mine for the tribes. They have no reason to offer better games because they have thousands of retirees looking for something to do. I'm one of them. The difference between them and me is I know what it costs to play 97% VP and it's not worth the investment. Playing as small as possible provides me with the same entertainment at a better price.
When we go to Vegas, we either play at Red Rock or South Point. We play max coins and we do well. We do the same at the Peppermill in Reo. There are no games like that in the Southeast, so we do what we can to minimize the damage.
If you are only going to play a few thousand hands of VP a year, odds don't matter that much. If you are going to play 250,000 hands, you better get a handle on the cost.
Quote: SingleCoinVPThe Beau Rivage in Biloxi will fly you there and back for free. You will be stuck in their casino for 3 days. All the games are 97%. I can tell you from experience in three days of playing max coin quarter 97% video poker, you will lose around $1,500 unless you hit a royal which only happens a few times a year. These are nice trips. The Beau Rivage is a beautiful hotel.
Losing $1,500 on $1.25 per spin is 40,000 hands. In three days. That sounds exactly like what you say would be so horrible for a certain family member to do, but is ok for you, because $1,500 is cheap entertainment. Playing 40,000 over three days should lead to a lot more royals than "a few times a year".
$1,500 is the worst we have ever done on a quarter Biloxi trip. We occasionally make a little money. If you factor in the cost of plane fare, lodging, free food and transportation, their deal isn't all that bad.Quote: TomGLosing $1,500 on $1.25 per spin is 40,000 hands. In three days. That sounds exactly like what you say would be so horrible for a certain family member to do, but is ok for you, because $1,500 is cheap entertainment. Playing 40,000 over three days should lead to a lot more royals than "a few times a year".
Our number of royals varies considerable from year to year. Last year was an exceptionally good year. This year, not so good. So far, I have been dealt five single line royals. I've had some very lucky things happen. When you play as much as I do, you see most everything.
Quote: SingleCoinVP$1,500 is the worst we have ever done on a quarter Biloxi trip.
Taking the absolute worst result you have ever had and changing that to "you will lose around" that amount is a very interesting mindset to take. That probably says a lot about why you have such difficulty finding any common ground with people who play video poker differently than you do.
I don't have trouble finding common ground with other players. My wife always plays max coin quarter VP. She knows how I play and I see her results. I play a lot more hands than she does. Our results aren't that different.Quote: TomGTaking the absolute worst result you have ever had and changing that to "you will lose around" that amount is a very interesting mindset to take. That probably says a lot about why you have such difficulty finding any common ground with people who play video poker differently than you do.
What I don't like is when people on a forum judge the way I play when they aren't playing in my shoes. I enjoy the game as a game. I don't play VP in Vegas. There's isn't a long term +EV game within 500 miles of me. I am not an AP. I hate losing money. Playing my way lets me play all the VP I want cheap.
Most people don't care how much they pay to lose. If they have the guts, they ask the casino for an annual printout. That's when they find out who the real APs are.
Quote: SingleCoinVPWhat I don't like is when people on a forum judge the way I play when they aren't playing in my shoes.
I haven't seen much negative judgement at all in the way you play. Most of us are simply saying that way isn't for us and we prefer to play differently
This Forum is a breath of fresh air. The comments are generally well thought out and the logic intelligent. So far I haven't heard any book or sales promotions. That is not the case everywhere. One post on another forum said all single coin players should be killed. I tried to explain why a retiree would play that way and it turned into an insult match.Quote: TomGI haven't seen much negative judgement at all in the way you play. Most of us are simply saying that way isn't for us and we prefer to play differently
Here's a funny story. A few years ago I was playing VP on the end of a long line of machines. All the machines were full. A lady on the other side of the line said this loud enough so I could hear. "I hate single coin players, they ruin the game for everyone!" I asked her why she thought that was? She said, "They hit all the jackpots and they don't get anything for it." I don't know if that was a compliment or a complaint.
There are millions of people who play video poker. Not everyone has what it takes to be an AP. Some of us know that. Some of us don't. I think it's better to know you don't than to believe you do and suffer the consequences.
I look forward to these discussions. It adds to my enjoyment of video poker. I don't enjoy people who think there is only one answer to every issue. I have learned more from people who I didn't agree with than all the people who think just like me.
These Baccarat players who dump $20K in a few bets it would make almost no difference if they were playing a zero house edge game because they do not have an infinite bankroll and there is a set high limit to how much may be bet. These people who make such a big deal of a 0.19 - 1.5% house advantage in BJ or Bacc are not high rollers and don't understand how high rollers bet and play.
If Baccarat had no house edge at all and were somehow a true 50-50 game still high rollers who move their bets around between banker and player and vary their bets between small and HUGE trying to win big would keep playing exactly the same way they play today, no high roller would sit there betting only bank all day long. If Baccarat had no house edge it would attract the punks who want to sit there all day playing for comps, it would not change the way high rollers play and I doubt would even affect the Baccarat bottom line much from whales, who generally play until they either win or lose BIG.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
Here's a funny story. A few years ago I was playing VP on the end of a long line of machines. All the machines were full. A lady on the other side of the line said this loud enough so I could hear. "I hate single coin players, they ruin the game for everyone!" I asked her why she thought that was? She said, "They hit all the jackpots and they don't get anything for it." I don't know if that was a compliment or a complaint.
I don't get it... how does that ruin the game? Doesn't that mean there's more money left over for the multi-coin players?
Quote: TigerWuI don't get it... how does that ruin the game? Doesn't that mean there's more money left over for the multi-coin players?
What she is erroneous in thinking is that the royal appeared so that is one less royal or chance at a royal.
I.e. she might have gotten that royal and now that the other person did she doesn't have such good odds anymore.
Ploppies often have skewed logic. Like the time a guy told me he would never play single zero roulette because that was one less number he could possibly win, and thats how the casino gets suckers, by offering them games with less numbers, less chances
I find this to be a very interesting statement which should probably be the subject of it's own thread.Quote: MDawgIf you're flat betting whether a quarter or $25,000. over time the house advantage comes into play, but if you're jumping your bet around the house advantage has very little to do with your short term outcome.
Over the years, I have done a lot of "jump around betting". I find it more entertaining than flat betting. I have been the beneficiary of some big wins doing this. When you play this way, your results are based on timing and you are paid for correctly predicting the occurrence of a future jackpot.
I don't believe you can out guess a negative video poker game consistently enough to turn a negative game positive long term. However, anything can happen in the short term. I have always wondered if flat betting or jump betting yields better results? You can't do a computer simulation on this question because you don't know what the player might do to affect the variables.
Quote: SingleCoinVPOver the years, I have done a lot of "jump around betting". I find it more entertaining than flat betting. I have been the beneficiary of some big wins doing this. When you play this way, your results are based on timing and you are paid for correctly predicting the occurrence of a future jackpot.
I don't believe you can out guess a negative video poker game consistently enough to turn a negative game positive long term. However, anything can happen in the short term. I have always wondered if flat betting or jump betting yields better results?
Jumping around to "catch the tops of the waves, but avoid the troughs" is a great adventure and you said you enjoy it from time to time and even recall having been lucky at it a few times. so why simulate it, keep records of your actual play.
IF your bankroll is sufficient OR if your first few jumps are successful, stay with it.
As I said upthread: you are aware you are paying a price for a day in the casino, your friends are aware of the price they pay at the golf course. They get drinks and air conditioning only at the nineteenth hole, you get drinks and air conditioning all day long.
I see nothing about your play that I would consider wrong or tainted with ignorance or miscalculation.
May you get more Royals than they get Holes in One !!
Us mere mortals can never outguess a video poker game. Sometimes Jumping Up levels works and sometimes it doesn't.Quote: SingleCoinVP
I don't believe you can out guess a negative video poker game consistently enough to turn a negative game positive long term. However, anything can happen in the short term.
Do you jump up and levels because you're on a hot streak or do you and jump up and levels because you're due? I guess only a master video poker player could take advantage of both situations.🤣🤣🤣
I have tried everything possible. When you believe you are going to pay to play no matter what you do, why not? Some things work better than others.Quote: AxelWolfDo you jump up and levels because you're on a hot streak or do you and jump up and levels because you're due?
Switching games does not work all that well for me. It causes errors for one thing. There was a time when I would switch back and forth between deuces wild and double double bonus. I hit quad aces playing deuces wild to many times. Switching denomination works better for me. At least the strategy doesn't change.
I have a friend who uses Martingale strategy. He counts his hands and increases his bet during a long bad spell. I like to play bigger when I am ahead. Neither strategy works all the time. It does make the game more exciting.
NOPE!!Quote: SingleCoinVPSome things work better than others.
The only thing that works better is playing better pay tables. Whatever luck you have or haven't had you picked up on after the fact and now you think that works better. Now it's all just confirmation bias.
Quote: AxelWolfUs mere mortals can never outguess a video poker game. Sometimes Jumping Up levels works and sometimes it doesn't.
Do you jump up and levels because you're on a hot streak or do you and jump up and levels because you're due? I guess only a master video poker player could take advantage of both situations.🤣🤣🤣
You only jump when a straight flush or better is coming. A max coin SF on a dollar machine allows one to play single coin quarters forever.
Beware the Dollar Succubus! (private joke)Quote: billryanYou only jump when a straight flush or better is coming. A max coin SF on a dollar machine allows one to play single coin quarters forever.
