How many hands to be confident the game is rigged?
This machine is located in a foreign country.
I played for 12hrs @ 600 hands/hr and lost $1400.
It seemed like I missed converting like 90% of my dealt 4 to a flush.
Yes,I know the odds of converting is 9/47 = ~20%.
So +/- 10% of that should be within the norm.
But that got me thinking about how to figure out if the VP machine is rigged or not.
How many hands do I need to play and what am I looking for?
Paytables on a Class 3 can look great but the game is set for a 10% hold.
Quote: billryanDo not expect that video poker machines in foreign jurisdictions play like Vegas machines. Do you know what Class of machine they are?
Paytables on a Class 3 can look great but the game is set for a 10% hold.
class 2 are just bingo type machines
class 3 will pay to the odds on the machine
Quote: billryanDo not expect that video poker machines in foreign jurisdictions play like Vegas machines. Do you know what Class of machine they are?
Paytables on a Class 3 can look great but the game is set for a 10% hold.
That goes for some places in the US as well. I bet many many people play VP in places like oklahoma that think they are playing a fair game.
And Washington. So fun breaking up made hands and seeing the Genie fix it.Quote: GWAEThat goes for some places in the US as well. I bet many many people play VP in places like oklahoma that think they are playing a fair game.
Quote: mipletAnd Washington. So fun breaking up made hands and seeing the Genie fix it.
I once had dealt Aces and really wanted to discard it for fun. But I was chicken
Quote: 100xOdds.25 denom 9/6 ddb with Royal progressive at $2000 (101%)
This machine is located in a foreign country.
I played for 12hrs @ 600 hands/hr and lost $1400.
It seemed like I missed converting like 90% of my dealt 4 to a flush.
Yes,I know the odds of converting is 9/47 = ~20%.
So +/- 10% of that should be within the norm.
But that got me thinking about how to figure out if the VP machine is rigged or not.
How many hands do I need to play and what am I looking for?
Depends how "off" your results are from the mean and how confident you want to be in the assertion the game is gaffed.
You could do something more simple, like count the number of full houses and flushes you get. You should get a FH about 1-in-88 hands and a flush 1-in-78 hands. They don't come up regularly enough to be a strain to count them, and they aren't so infrequent that it'll take a while to get a good sample size (EG: It'd be worthless doing it with counting royals unless you're putting in million of hands).
Then, obviously, compare the number of full houses and flushes that you got with the number you should have gotten. Then using some math, you can figure out how likely you were to get the number that you got.
Quote: vegasclass 2 are just bingo type machines
class 3 will pay to the odds on the machine
Yes, I had it backwards. Class two are the worse of the two.
Quote: GWAEThat goes for some places in the US as well. I bet many many people play VP in places like oklahoma that think they are playing a fair game.
Not all VP in OK is class II
Quote: rsactuaryNot all VP in OK is class II
Not even in the same casino. Gotta look carefully.
Quote: billryanYes, I had it backwards. Class two are the worse of the two.
Which class does Pennsylvania casinos use ?
Low class (-;Quote: michael99000Which class does Pennsylvania casinos use ?
Quote: vegasclass 2 are just bingo type machines
class 3 will pay to the odds on the machine
I think they were class 3.
I had AAKQ8, and kept qka suited for 3 to a Royal.
The game didn't give me back AAxxx for a winning hand. (I whiffed)
Also, how to tell the difference by looking at them?
Or look in the help screen??
Quote: beachbumbabsNot even in the same casino. Gotta look carefully.
Sorry, if this is going a bit off topic, but I believe all VP at WinStar is Class III. If someone believes differently, I'd like to hear about it.
Quote: GWAEThat goes for some places in the US as well. I bet many many people play VP in places like oklahoma that think they are playing a fair game.
I've played several California Indian casinos. There are PLENTY of Class-2 machines scattered around in California. Naturally, they don't put signs up saying something is different with this machine. Why would they? How many ploppies know to look for the little "bingo square"? None, that's how many. Not exactly what one would call "transparent".
Quote: michael99000Which class does Pennsylvania casinos use ?
Depends on the casino. Places like Parx and Hollywood are pari-mutual. Others, like Valley Forge and Mount Airy are standalone.
Payouts are comparable. The 94.16% pari-mutual payouts at Resorts World in Queens, NY are better than most in any state.
Quote: RSI haven’t had much experience playing class 2 machines, but I have some. Do they ALL have a bingo card on there? Or are there some that don’t?
I am under the impression they all do have a small bingo card on them.
Quote: RSI haven’t had much experience playing class 2 machines, but I have some. Do they ALL have a bingo card on there? Or are there some that don’t?
I found a bank that I don't think had the bingo square visible but had something in writing that told me it was Class-2. Let me get back to you next week, I'll try to take a picture. This is in California. But for the most part they do have those bingo thingies.
It's possible I don't know wtf I'm talking about. Hard do believe, but sometimes I am actually wrong. I'll get some pictures.
Quote: mipletAnd Washington. So fun breaking up made hands and seeing the Genie fix it.
They have the genie machines there??? I thought they were all match card up there. I'd love to see a pic.
Quote: michael99000Which class does Pennsylvania casinos use ?
PA is "Vegas Style" (aka Class III)
Quote: TankoDepends on the casino. Places like Parx and Hollywood are pari-mutual. Others, like Valley Forge and Mount Airy are standalone.
Payouts are comparable. The 94.16% pari-mutual payouts at Resorts World in Queens, NY are better than most in any state.
Huh?
PA is only pari-mutuel for the racing portion. Slots/VP are exactly like Vegas.
And NY racino slots are instant virtual scratchoffs. Also not pari-mutuel.
Quote: tringlomane
Huh?
PA is only pari-mutuel for the racing portion. Slots/VP are exactly like Vegas.
And NY racino slots are instant virtual scratchoffs. Also not pari-mutuel.
My thoughts exactly. "HUH?"
Thanks for straightening this out.
Quote: rsactuarySorry, if this is going a bit off topic, but I believe all VP at WinStar is Class III. If someone believes differently, I'd like to hear about it.
I have not played at WinStar. Good to know they're all class iii. Downstream (OK) definitely has a mix. So does Florida. I really think it depends on whether they are trying to get full value out of old machines more than an evil intent.
In my experience, all Class ii machines have a bingo symbol on them that's accessible via touchscreen or button, or a fine print statement somewhere on the face that's explained in its help files. So you can always tell, but you have to start by looking for it.
Quote: beachbumbabsI have not played at WinStar. Good to know they're all class iii. Downstream (OK) definitely has a mix. So does Florida. I really think it depends on whether they are trying to get full value out of old machines more than an evil intent.
In my experience, all Class ii machines have a bingo symbol on them that's accessible via touchscreen or button, or a fine print statement somewhere on the face that's explained in its help files. So you can always tell, but you have to start by looking for it.
Yeah, there are no bingo symbols anywhere, nor are there any match cards or fairies that magically appear and change results. Plus after decades of playing VP, if just *feels* fair.
Quote: TankoDepends on the casino. Places like Parx and Hollywood are pari-mutual. Others, like Valley Forge and Mount Airy are standalone.
Payouts are comparable. The 94.16% pari-mutual payouts at Resorts World in Queens, NY are better than most in any state.
what is a "pari-mutuel racino" and how does it differ from regular casino? is there such thing as pari-mutuel caisno? is the fact that racing happens at it of some sort?
Quote: beachbumbabsI have not played at WinStar. Good to know they're all class iii. Downstream (OK) definitely has a mix. So does Florida. I really think it depends on whether they are trying to get full value out of old machines more than an evil intent.
In my experience, all Class ii machines have a bingo symbol on them that's accessible via touchscreen or button, or a fine print statement somewhere on the face that's explained in its help files. So you can always tell, but you have to start by looking for it.
Sometimes they have a limit on how many Class III devices they are allowed to have either by compact, or adding games will put them into a higher tax tier on winnings. When this happens and they want to add machines, many Indian Casinos will add Class II machines and mix them in with the Class III, hoping the players don't realize the difference. Usually they have the bingo card somewhere on the machine. I believe in California that is a must.
I don't know how the bingo stuff works on slots. Perhaps someone else does and they can answer this question, I would really like to know. Is there less variance on a class 2 bingo machine than a class 3? That would kinda make sence if it was. That might be more appealing to an AP in many situations. I thought places that have class 2 machines are usually set higher per the state regulations?
Quote: AxelWolfUnless its something you are trying to AP and the hit frequencies are different than what you have already estimated/calculated who cared if its class 2 or 3? A 90% payback, is a 90% payback period.
I don't know how the bingo stuff works on slots. Perhaps someone else does and they can answer this question, I would really like to know. Is there less variance on a class 2 bingo machine than a class 3? That would kinda make sence if it was. That might be more appealing to an AP in many situations. I thought places that have class 2 machines are usually set higher per the state regulations?
Generally speaking, many class ii slots are quite similar to class iii slots in terms of payback and variance, afaik. For a recreational slot player, they might not notice a difference except for a bingo card display.
Quote: tringlomaneGenerally speaking, many class ii slots are quite similar to class iii slots in terms of payback and variance, afaik. For a recreational slot player, they might not notice a difference except for a bingo card display.
When I lived in Oklahoma, the biggest difference I could tell was that class III machines had names I had heard of, like Quit Hit Platinum, Wheel of Fortune, Red Hot Jackpots, and Black Widow.
The one Class II slot that really annoyed me was Red Ball Bingo. It looks like keno. There are 80 numbers on the board and you can pick between 2 and 10. But the thing doesn't select 20 numbers out of 80 at random. It does that stupid bingo drawing. Say you do 3 spots. One bingo pattern is "hit 2" in which case the machine purposely picks 18 numbers that you didn't and 2 of the 3 you did. The other winning bingo pattern is "hit 3" in which case the machine picks all 3 of your numbers and 17 others. If your bingo pattern is anything else, the machine picks 19 or 20 numbers you didn't pick. That's not keno. That's just dumb.
Quote: KevinAAWhen I lived in Oklahoma, the biggest difference I could tell was that class III machines had names I had heard of, like Quit Hit Platinum, Wheel of Fortune, Red Hot Jackpots, and Black Widow.
Almost all the slot games out there now are available to the casinos in either Class II or Class III versions. It used to be true that the Class II were all very generic. Not any more.
