VP hands per hour
There was one promising app someone suggested, however it's for Android app on Google Play, and I only have an iPad.
If there's no such app, maybe someone has an idea how I can make an estimate?
REASON: getting ready to play in my first VP tournament!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/28084-request-advice-about-vp-tournaments/5/#post576266
Thanks forum folks!
1) 500 hands per hour = slow
2) 750 hands per hour = good pace
3) 900+ hands per hour = fast
Once you get up to playing somewhat fast, then the more important app for you will be one that tells you when you make a mistake, as playing faster often comes with some strategy mistakes.
Quote: RomesHint: Every video poker app can keep count of your hands =)... Just play as fast as you can (while playing correctly, whether this means proper strategy or modified tournament strategy) and count the number of hands and have someone (or yourself) time you for 1 minute. Do that 10 times and you can quickly get a good estimate on your hourly by extrapolation. Also good for training because you're doing multiple things while playing (similar to counting cards) =). WHen you can play quick and keep count, then do 5 minute intervals and extrapolate. You should be able to get a good idea though. For reference:
1) 500 hands per hour = slow
2) 750 hands per hour = good pace
3) 900+ hands per hour = fast
Once you get up to playing somewhat fast, then the more important app for you will be one that tells you when you make a mistake, as playing faster often comes with some strategy mistakes.
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Romes,
You always have something worth reading & understanding better! Your suggestion is the most inexpensive app on the market -- FREE!
OK, I will try your suggestions for 1 min (and later 5 min) timing, and work on improving whatever I extrapolate! Right now, I'll guess I'm still below good pace of 750 - thinking 700-725 maybe.
We shall see! :-)
P.S. With my old Windows laptop, I used to have VP program that tabulates mistakes; now I have VP Tutor for my iPad. They both work great!
Quote: LostWages
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Romes,
You always have something worth reading & understanding better! Your suggestion is the most inexpensive app on the market -- FREE!
OK, I will try your suggestions for 1 min (and later 5 min) timing, and work on improving whatever I extrapolate! Right now, I'll guess I'm still below good pace of 750 - thinking 700-725 maybe.
We shall see! :-)
P.S. With my old Windows laptop, I used to have VP program that tabulates mistakes; now I have VP Tutor for my iPad. They both work great!
----
Romes (and posters to my OP on VP Tournament Strategy):
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/28084-request-advice-about-vp-tournaments/5/#post576266
Using your HPH guide of 500 (slow), 750 (good pace), and 900+ (fast), I surprised myself to find I extrapolated 6 trials of 1 min each and 4 trials of 3 min each to finish > 1,000 HPH but less than 1,400 HPH.
I'm reasonably sure my original guesstimate of 725-775 HPH was for my normal, much slower pace.
BTW, I called the Cal again, and this time the Marketing gal said the VP was definitely Doubl Double Bonus Poker, not Double Bonus Poker, Sometime early March, the Cal will mail out a follow-up flyer with more Rs & Rs for the tournament.
CAVEAT: I can remember at least a handful of mistakes in each of the 10 trials, so I will try another set of 10 trials at a slower pace to see if I can minimize the mistakes. At least I don't remember dumping 4oak or 4 to the RF (aaaaargh!).
Now I have some skills to hone and the means to do it.
Thanks again for your tips and enouragement,
LW
I would imagine you're playing a little slower than that, but if you're not, then wow you're playing very quickly already. Good luck.
Quote: Romes> 1000 HPH is rather fast. I would move more towards the 5 minute or even 10 minute timed playing sessions and re-extrapolate. This just seems rather fast. I can play 1,000 hands per hour, but probably with a couple mistakes. Then again, I'm not a complete VP Expert, but I've had my fair share of VP and AP VP plays.
I would imagine you're playing a little slower than that, but if you're not, then wow you're playing very quickly already. Good luck.
Yes, I agree that > 1000 HPH is fast, but again, I admitted that in each of the 10 sessions I remembered a handful of mistakes. What if that 1 mistake was throwing away 4oak? Yikes! Like card-counting, I just can't afford to mistake TC +3 when it was actually TC -1. Bummer!
Over the next couple of days, I will run sets of 10 sessions at a slower pace where I don't remember more than 1 or 2 mistakes overall. I'll re-do my 1 min/3min sessions, and then as you've suggested, try a 5 min and 10 min and re-extrapolate. When I've re-assessed my HPH with fewer mistakes, I'll consider at least two 20-min sessions to emulate I'm on Day 1 & Day 2 of the Tournament!
My guesstimate is that I'll go back down to the mid-700s, possibly low 800s. My orig guess was 725-775, but that was for my "take your time" pace.
Thank you for your posting and great suggestions to calculate HPH!
LW
Quote: RSYour HPH will be higher on software than it is on actual machines. Software can typically deal and draw the cards practically as quickly as you can hit the button. VP machines are slower.
RS - I was just thinking about the Cal machines I remember, and thought that my iPad app seemed to respond faster when I hit "DRAW" even before the count is finished.
Thanks a bunch for keeping me straight! :-)
I'll keep this in mind when I get to the Cal on 2 Apr, which gives me 2 days of live practice before the tournament starts on 4 Apr. I'll try to find some penny machines on which to practice counting my HPH.
LW
Many slot clubs give you one point per dollar played. If you're playing quarters ($1.25 a hand) and you earn 750 points in an hour, it's easy math to figure that you are playing at 600 hph.
If it costs $2 to earn a point, or $10, or you're playing dollars or nickels, the technique still works. All you need is a point counter that increments in real time and a time piece --- and a bit of math. Hitting a W2G will screw up your hph calculation --- but you can start over again after you are paid.
But whatever final number you come up with, it doesn't matter. On April 4 you're going to be playing as fast and as accurately as you can. Your results (there are more losers than winners --- there is a HIGH degree of luck in an individual tournament) will be what they are. Believing you went in playing 823 hph --- or 1325 --- or whatever --- is irrelevant. Just play as fast as you can and take what you get. Getting a royal or aces with a kicker is a real longshot. It probably won't happen that day --- but if you keep entering tournaments sometimes you'll get those hands.
If you are a frequent player, your speed will increase over time. The increase in speed comes more from instantaneous recognition of what possible combinations are in the hand --- and quickly knowing which combination is better --- than it does from finger speed. If you're not using all 10 fingers to hit the buttons, practice doing so.
Quote: Romes> 1000 HPH is rather fast. I would move more towards the 5 minute or even 10 minute timed playing sessions and re-extrapolate. This just seems rather fast. I can play 1,000 hands per hour, but probably with a couple mistakes. Then again, I'm not a complete VP Expert, but I've had my fair share of VP and AP VP plays.
I would imagine you're playing a little slower than that, but if you're not, then wow you're playing very quickly already. Good luck.
You're right, Romes. At > 1000 HPH, I made mistakes pretty much every one of the 10 trials (1-min X 6 and 3-min X 4).
I practiced some more the last 5 days, and with maybe only a handful of errors over all 4 days and 6 trial runs, my HPH is about 930.
RS suggested that machine play is much slower that when one practices on an iPad. So if the iPad is 10-15% faster, my corrected HPH is between 790 to 837.
I believe I should slow down just a tad more so I get zero errors - I use the WoO's "Warn on Strategy Errors" when I play the DDB.
Now to practice 5-min and 10-min trials!
We get in on Apr 2, so I'll look for penny machines to practice before I put down $20 for a 0.25 machine. I will have Apr 3 also to practice, and time before my first run on Apr 4.
Thanks for your tips, everyone!
Quote: BobDancerPractice on an iPad is misleading. Practice in a real casino!
Many slot clubs give you one point per dollar played. If you're playing quarters ($1.25 a hand) and you earn 750 points in an hour, it's easy math to figure that you are playing at 600 hph.
If it costs $2 to earn a point, or $10, or you're playing dollars or nickels, the technique still works. All you need is a point counter that increments in real time and a time piece --- and a bit of math. Hitting a W2G will screw up your hph calculation --- but you can start over again after you are paid.
But whatever final number you come up with, it doesn't matter. On April 4 you're going to be playing as fast and as accurately as you can. Your results (there are more losers than winners --- there is a HIGH degree of luck in an individual tournament) will be what they are. Believing you went in playing 823 hph --- or 1325 --- or whatever --- is irrelevant. Just play as fast as you can and take what you get. Getting a royal or aces with a kicker is a real longshot. It probably won't happen that day --- but if you keep entering tournaments sometimes you'll get those hands.
If you are a frequent player, your speed will increase over time. The increase in speed comes more from instantaneous recognition of what possible combinations are in the hand --- and quickly knowing which combination is better --- than it does from finger speed. If you're not using all 10 fingers to hit the buttons, practice doing so.
My favorite casinos are the places that have no player's club info on vpfree, and it's like $8.95 per point or some nonsense.
Quote: djatcMy favorite casinos are the places that have no player's club info on vpfree, and it's like $8.95 per point or some nonsense.
DJATC/Bob:
My fav casino is the Cal . . . but it's 2,756 miles from Honolulu, and I can't swim or drive there . . . There's no legal gambling allowed in Hawaii. President Trump! Fix this and put the first casino in the hotel you already have here in Honolulu! For now, it's the iPad. . .
If you're daring to try gambling in Hawaii, go to Chinatown on an early Sat/Sun for Dim Sum at Fook Lam. One of the best dim sum places around.
You'll catch about 6 or 7 tables of card players with cold cash - can't figure out their game. I was afraid to take a closer picture, less they think I'm an undercover cop. However, I found this neat picture where you can see their reflection if you look carefully. Wish you could see the WADS of cold cash ($10s & $20s) they carry around like a clutch bag.
Quote: BobDancerHitting a W2G will screw up your hph calculation --- but you can start over again after you are paid.
Alternatively, you can also "stop the clock" once you hit the W2G and "restart the clock" when you start playing again.
Or if you're playing a game where W2Gs are frequent, then you may want to include the W2G time in your HPH calculation....at least, for that specific game.
Quote: djatcMy favorite casinos are the places that have no player's club info on vpfree, and it's like $8.95 per point or some nonsense.
You mean you don't like Venetian's system where you get twice the cube root of your theoretical loss per hand? I love that system. No need to make it simple where you can do it in your head or even a calculator. Why not require a math degree and ability to solve differential equations in order to determine how many points you get? These darn casinos like the OG Palms where $1 = 1 point, thinkin' they all sly, making the slot club too easy to understand. Darn them, I say!
Quote:Alternatively, you can also "stop the clock" once you hit the W2G and "restart the clock" . . .
RS - thanks for your extra tips . . . and other comments! I'm getting more comfortable each day as Apr 4 VP Tournament day approaches!
Quote: RS
You mean you don't like Venetian's system where you get twice the cube root of your theoretical loss per hand? I love that system. No need to make it simple where you can do it in your head or even a calculator. Why not require a math degree and ability to solve differential equations in order to determine how many points you get? These darn casinos like the OG Palms where $1 = 1 point, thinkin' they all sly, making the slot club too easy to understand. Darn them, I say!
This is why I like places that don't pull this BS. Ellis Island = $1 1pt
Boyd $1= 1pt
Both these places are 1000pt = $1
Stations is too but they are jewy with their "everyday 3x points" bs
South Point is the best. $1 = 1pt and 1000pt = $3. I hate to sound like a shill but whoever is running the slots department and promotions have really got their head on straight. 99% vp throughout the place, and for decent denominations. Just don't like the fact you only get one level card. I hate waiting in line. Bob Dancer please pass this along to Mitchell Gonegin
Quote: LostWages.
When I was a youngin my mom used to take me to Legends Seafood restaurant all the time
I think the place was too fancy for card games, which was unfortunate. My friends and I used to play 5 card draw all the time for pennies.
Quote: RSYour HPH will be higher on software than it is on actual machines. Software can typically deal and draw the cards practically as quickly as you can hit the button. VP machines are slower.
plus if you do marathon sessions, you will slow down.
when I did DiaD, I started at 1000 hands per hr.
I just noticed how many Tier Credits I accumulated in the 1st hr and used simple math.
i completed DiaD in around 8hrs with 5k hands.
that's 600hands per hr.
im surprised the vp tourney is by time and not # of hands?
Quote:When I was a youngin my mom used to take me to Legends Seafood restaurant all the time
I think the place was too fancy for card games, which was unfortunate. My friends and I used to play 5 card draw all the time for pennies.
DJATC - well, the young-in and the old-in and the mid-in continue to make good memories at Legends Seafood, 7 days a week . . .
A slow day at the entrance:
. . . and the seafood . . .
Quote: 100xodds. . . im surprised the vp tourney is by time and not # of hands?
The VP Tournament is run by the Cal/Boyd Gaming, and the invite says play will be limited to 150 players. I called Marketing for details, and the lady said it will be held on the 2nd floor, using Double Double Bonus poker, and each player gets 1500 credits with a 20 min session. First session is on Apr 4, and "finals" is on Apr 5, followed by a banquet.
This will be the first time I've played in a VP Tournament, and the first time I'll be playing DDB - my favorite game is Deuces are Wild, so I have to make almost an "about face" with strategy.
If you have any suggestions, I certainly welcome them!
Happens to all of us bud. Good to hear you got over that hurdle.Quote: RS...I was much faster back then, in my youthful days...
Are you like 50 or something and I didn't realize it???Quote: RS...I was much faster back then, in my youthful days...
(I had more than one zinger for that comment, so I decided to do both)
Quote: BobDancerIf you are a frequent player, your speed will increase over time.
Bob,
At 600 HPH, the player is pounding out a new hand every 6 seconds. In that 6 seconds, the player hits a Deal button, (about) 2 buttons for cards kept, and a Draw button.
Pounding. Hitting. Pounding. Hitting.
I don't play very fast because I select from the video screen rather than the buttons. I have found the buttons are unreliable. I press the "keep card 4" button, and suddenly I am presented the screen with 20 different video poker games, and the machine is asking me to tell it which game I want to play. The hand I was playing -- it seems only to happen when I have trips on the initial deal! -- is gone, as is the game I was playing.
The problem occurs because the tiny pieces in the button mechanism break from the pounding they take by the million-hands-an-hour video poker players. One time I had this problem manifest itself when a slot mechanic supervisor had been summoned because the slot tech at a nearby machine could not resolve that problem. So, I caught this slot-mechanic expert before he could get away. He pulled apart the button internals and showed me all the pieces inside. Then he opened his big toolbox, and it was FILLED with all the many types of little parts he had just shown me. He confessed my frustration was his never-ending headache. Obviously, maintaining these machines is a real heat sink for the casinos.
I know I'm not the only player who has had this happen. Those durn buttons were never built for the treatment they receive. But, the manufacturers must be aware of this problem. And, IMHO, fixing the problem is nothing more than an rather straightforward engineering task.
Bob, why don't the manufacturers fix this problem? Or, why don't the casinos twist manufacturer arms until they build more robust video poker machines? Is there no one on this planet who can kick some butts to make this happen? I trust you have a more informed perspective on this issue (or have contacts who can tell you why, Why, WHY this problem remains unsolved). Help!
Lucky
(... stepping down from his soapbox.)
Quote: rxwineThere are players who don't play fast, but really slam the buttons. It actually gets irritating when it is excessive and you are sitting nearby.
This is the next worse thing after a smoker.
Quote: LuckyPhowBob,
I don't play very fast because I select from the video screen rather than the buttons. I have found the buttons are unreliable. I press the "keep card 4" button, and suddenly I am presented the screen with 20 different video poker games, and the machine is asking me to tell it which game I want to play. The hand I was playing -- it seems only to happen when I have trips on the initial deal! -- is gone, as is the game I was playing.
while the hand is gone from the screen, it has not ended. If you go back in, you can select your cards and finish the hand.
Quote: rsactuarywhile the hand is gone from the screen, it has not ended. If you go back in, you can select your cards and finish the hand.
When I went back in, I still had the same game, but was offered the opportunity to start a new hand. Happened more than once. Maybe there was something I could'a done different, as you suggest. I really WANTED my trips back, and I couldn't figure out how to get them.
Possible, but doubtful. I wasn't between hands. And, the slot mechanic confirmed the mis-firing keys as a real problem.
You've never had this happen? And, you play VP pretty fast, right? If so, I'm surprised. It has happened to me several times -- enough so that I now no longer use the keys at all. I only tap the screen to make my choices.
Quote: LuckyPhowI only tap the screen to make my choices.
LP, or any reader: do you also have VP TOURNAMENT experience?
This was my other post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/28084-request-advice-about-vp-tournaments/5/#post576266
I normally use the touch screen, but Bob Dancer said:
Quote: Bob DancerDo not consider using touch screen. . .
Your explanation about the keys makes sense.
I guess we'll see what happens on Apr 4 & 5!
Thanks in advance if anyone can share their tournament experience!
I'm not sure how you are getting into the menu during a dealt hand? I think whats happening is that you are deal-drawing really fast. Now you see the re-drawn cards(hand is over) and then you attempt to hold the re-drawn cards and you end up trying to hold a card that happens to line up with the button that takes you to the menu screen.
If that's the case, this could mean you are tossing away all the cards on the deal without holding anything.
Quote: AxelWolfI'm not sure how you are getting into the menu during a dealt hand? I think whats happening is that you are deal-drawing really fast. Now you see the re-drawn cards(hand is over) and then you attempt to hold the re-drawn cards and you end up trying to hold a card that happens to line up with the button that takes you to the menu screen.
If that's the case, this could mean you are tossing away all the cards on the deal without holding anything.
AW - I'm not sure who asked the orig question for which you've provided a comment. I think (not 100% sure) it might be LuckyPhow?
More mistakes at 900-1000+ (unseen combination, unheld card, held wrong card, double hold card). Maybe -0.2-0.5% from errors.
I don't usually do penalty cards (-0.2%?), since I'm usually playing VP to show some action (not to make money) when I have a free hotel room.
VP machines vary in speed.
Often I place my left hand on the left 2-3 buttons, and use the right hand to save the rightmost-held card, trying to hold 3-4 cards at once.
I pause on any decent hand (3x or higher) before hitting deal (since sometimes one card doesn't hold).
I'm not a big VP player, and my "long" sessions are only 45 min - 1 hr 30 min.
To do 4 hrs in a day, I might play 3-4 sessions.
Even so, my wrist tendons sometimes cramp (so I often try to push the buttons with a straight wrist).
Sometimes I place a handkerchief underneath my wrists to help with abrasions from the slot machine.
Good luck at your tournament.
Quote: AxelWolf...Sometimes a button wont work so you have to use the touch screen for that card.
I'm not sure how you are getting into the menu during a dealt hand? I think whats happening is that you are deal-drawing really fast. ... If that's the case, this could mean you are tossing away all the cards on the deal without holding anything.
Axel,
Not me, Buddy. If this reply was for my benefit, please note I do not play fast. But, if someone was playing fast, I guess that could happen. But, not to me. I'm sloooow. After I decide, before I commit, I review. Just to be sure I'm not overlooking a better choice. I'm probably around 250 HPH (especially using video-screen selections, as that slows me down a lot).
My problem using buttons (vs. the screen options) is that the buttons sometimes mis-fire at unpredictable times because they are broken. I find it hard to believe I am the only VP player who has experienced this. The buttons were never designed to take the pounding they receive from the 1,000 HPH VP players. Result: occasional mis-fire.
Quote: MamatSometimes I place a handkerchief underneath my wrists to help with abrasions from the slot machine.
Good luck at your tournament.
Mamat,
Hey! Great to hear from you again. I didn't think of it, but when I wake up in the mornings (for the past couple of years), my left & right wrists are a little stiff - so I wear these neat arthritic gloves which look like those gloves the weight lifters use in the gym!
That is a terrific idea, and I will plan on wearing the gloves when I play at the Tournament!
My HPH, using left hand fingers and other techniques seems to match yours, so I must be on the right track!
Awesome!
LW
At 1,000-1,300 HPH, I probably experience a slipped card (button not pressed hard enough to register, slipped button, button pressed twice) about once every 10 min (depends on machine). ...which is why I double-check my cards before hitting draw (if it's a 3x payout, or more). Some machines have REALLY crappy buttons.Quote: LuckyPhowMy problem using buttons (vs. the screen options) is that the buttons sometimes mis-fire at unpredictable times because they are broken. I find it hard to believe I am the only VP player who has experienced this. The buttons were never designed to take the pounding they receive from the 1,000 HPH VP players. Result: occasional mis-fire.
Could maybe do 1,400-1,500 HPH without the double-check, but the cost of errors would zoom past -1.0%.
For a tournament, could be a good strategy to only double check Royals and Quads.
I wasn't quite accurate in my description. Went downstairs and played 414 hands in 17 min (1200/hr). Lost -$500 on $1s (76% payback). Yuck. So I rewrote the description of what I actually do.Quote: LostWagesHey! Great to hear from you again. I didn't think of it, but when I wake up in the mornings (for the past couple of years), my left & right wrists are a little stiff - so I wear these neat arthritic gloves which look like those gloves the weight lifters use in the gym!
I used to work with people that have "carpal tunnel", so there are lots of things you can do. 360 degree Wrist rolls & right-side-up/upside-down wrist curls with weights help. Wrist stretches (bend wrist 90-100 degrees back if you can do it without pain). Handstands are great (if you can do them).
Sometimes I like to play fast because it cuts the time between Deuces/Aces. 1,200 HPH = 4-5 hrs for Deuces/Aces. 600 HPH = 8-10 hrs.
I'm taking a performance hit for "no penalty cards" and "errors".
I've only hit four royals on heads-up play (and luckily hitting them with <1 royal cycle each), so that's not as much a factor.
For my short sessions, it's a miracle to hit a royal...
Quote: MamatFor my short sessions, it's a miracle to hit a royal...
No worries, Mamat! Thanks for the wrist exercise tips!
I fully appreciate that for a VP Tournament, Lady Luck will have a major impact on the 149 players I'll be playing against.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Grandma's 300 HPH gets the RF and my 900 HPH gets a minus 1,000 credits!
Aaaargh!
But I still wanted to just get all the best principles and tricks to use from those with more experience than I have. Here's what I've collected from our fellow posters:
1. Luck will play a major role (but nothing wrong with using the skills I've developed!)
2. Play modified optimum strategy, i.e., keep 4oak, keep 2 RF vs a pair, and more.
3. Use two hands and all the fingers I can get to press buttons
4. Don't wait for machine to add up credits, just go ahead and press "Draw" again
5. For aching hands, wear arthritic gloves (ones that leave finger tips open) and/or a handkerchief for wrist.
6. In a 20 min session with 1500 credits, play as strategically fast that you can.
7. Choose to play late(r), so you can see highest scores posted before you play.
8. Enjoy the moment! (This will be my very first VP Tournament!)
