VPFree2 Question

I have a question regarding VPFree2's database of games available in Las Vegas. Does the database include Game King games? I just recently returned home from a trip to Vegas and have pictures of games that I played in PH, Bally's, and the Rio where the paytables reflected in the pictures are not available in the database.

I'm new to it all and maybe I'm just doing something wrong. But I find it hard to believe that the games I was playing would not have already been added to the database. But I don't see them.

Not all games (paytables) are added to the VPF database, as far as I know; only the highest payback machines in that casino are in the DB. I think it started as only listing 99%+ games, but over time realized since many stores don't have 99%+ games, they just started adding anything that was sent to them.

As RS already wrote, the vpFREE2 database only lists the best video poker in each casino, not all video poker.

Those three casinos you mentioned have many video poker games with really bad paytables. I believe they already show 98%+ video poker for those three in vpFREE2, so if you find anything better than that, it might be appropriate to add. Personally, I wouldn't report anything below 98% unless it's a progressive with a really fast meter.

The games specifically were 9/5 DDB, which is 97.8%, which I considered to be decent considering it was the strip and I really couldn't find anything better. I honestly didn't spend much time on the site, however. But when I do a search for that specific pay table, it's an option in the drop down box but nothing fits their criteria. I guess this is normal. Thanks for the clarification.

So the rule of the thumb for vpfree2 is that if it's not above 98%, don't bother reporting it? And you also won't find anything less?

That is a reasonable conclusion. They only care about playable games. I also notice that some of the more obscure casinos aren't complete. For example, Jerry's Nugget has 99.62% DDW. They are old coin games that have been there for years. I noticed looking at it that they were not in there so I submitted it.

I doubt it is intentional, at least in this example. Nobody ever plays those machines and they aren't the best ones in there.

Quote: Steverinos

The games specifically were 9/5 DDB, which is 97.8%, which I considered to be decent considering it was the strip and I really couldn't find anything better. I honestly didn't spend much time on the site, however. But when I do a search for that specific pay table, it's an option in the drop down box but nothing fits their criteria. I guess this is normal. Thanks for the clarification.

So the rule of the thumb for vpfree2 is that if it's not above 98%, don't bother reporting it? And you also won't find anything less?

For the Vegas Strip, yes, 98% is often the cutoff and anything lower is not reported. If you're a dollar player, many strip casinos are 9/5 DDB (97.87%), I would even argue to include it for the Strip since they include 7/5 Bonus (98.01%) a lot. The problem is, you have to make the cutoff somewhere... A few CET casinos offer 7/5 Super DDB (98.61%) for dollars+.

It's annoying VPFree has a "minimum" or whatever -- the idea that something below some % return is not "playable". My understanding of VPFree is that it is at least somewhat AP-based. Some of the best machines to play are not listed on VPFree because their returns are "too low". The idea you should only play 99%+ games is ridiculous. Sometimes the best machine to play has a 97% or worse return.

Quote: RS

It's annoying VPFree.

period.

People who do and get VP AP understand.

Quote: RS

It's annoying VPFree has a "minimum" or whatever -- the idea that something below some % return is not "playable". My understanding of VPFree is that it is at least somewhat AP-based. Some of the best machines to play are not listed on VPFree because their returns are "too low". The idea you should only play 99%+ games is ridiculous. Sometimes the best machine to play has a 97% or worse return.

I agree with RS that there are many low return video poker machines that can be very "playable" all things considered. Actually I do see low return games in VPFree that I believe are over 100% with all benefits, promos, etc. added in, so I don't think there's a strict cut off for paytable returns.

Yes, this is my first post. I hope to make more.

Quote: AKT60

I agree with RS that there are many low return video poker machines that can be very "playable" all things considered. Actually I do see low return games in VPFree that I believe are over 100% with all benefits, promos, etc. added in, so I don't think there's a strict cut off for paytable returns.

Yes, this is my first post. I hope to make more.

Welcome.

2F and BBB will be along soon to welcome you as well.

Hey! AKT60. Welcome!

Hey! Axel. Pbbbtttt. :)

Quote: beachbumbabs

Hey! AKT60. Welcome!

Hey! Axel. Pbbbtttt. :)

Let's see if frack shows up and I hit my 2 teamer (-;

Quote: AxelWolf

Let's see if frack shows up and I hit my 2 teamer (-;

Lol

Welcome AKT60!

Quote: AxelWolf

Let's see if frack shows up and I hit my 2 teamer (-;

Please note that I did not that I did not post
frack you, Axel.
I was only tempted ;-)

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Please note that I did not that I did not post
frack you, Axel.
I was only tempted ;-)

Would be a good trivia question here but some people just googles crap and give answers.

What television series first used the word frack/frak in the place of the F-word?

Quote: AxelWolf

Would be a good trivia question here but some people just googles crap and give answers.

What television series first used the word frack/frak in the place of the F-word?

Not googling. Guessing NYPD Blue.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Not googling. Guessing NYPD Blue.

Good plan(cover play).... toss in a few non googled answers to make it look good (-;.

No spoiler tags? Someone knew they had a wrong answer I guess.

Seinfeld? (no googling)

Quote: RS

Show Spoiler

No googling, but I reckon it may be the 1978-Battlestar Galactica.

I like the robot chicken version of that episode.

I thought we were talking Fric & Frac and wasn't surprised Axel had mis-spelled it, again.

He did only post it once though ;-)

I am a vpfree2 monitor from the Chicago area. Usually we include any 99%+ EV game but usually also include 9-6DDB at 98.98% because that game is very popular.
Note: in some cases a gimmick (10-6-5DB super times pay for example) may make a sub 99% into a 99%+ game.
The Majestic Star (Gary IN) has many 99%+ games so only those games + 9-6DDB are in that database. Also including a progressive that is often over 99%.
I also monitor the Rivers (Des Plaines IL) and it does not have any 99%+ EV games so I show the best games there which are $1 and up games between 98.8% and 99% EV.

Also note: If you see any 99%+ EV game not included in the vpfree2 database please contact vpfree2 (Unless you think it is a casino mistake in which case you might want to try to exploit it!).

Howard W Stern
pyiddy

Quote: RS

Show Spoiler

No googling, but I reckon it may be the 1978-Battlestar Galactica.

You googled the frak out of that. I doubt you ever even heard of that show.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: RS

Show Spoiler

No googling, but I reckon it may be the 1978-Battlestar Galactica.

You googled the frak out of that. I doubt you ever even heard of that show.

I'm a huge 1978-BattleStar Galactica fan.

# bears, beets, 1978-Battlestar Galactica

Quote: RS

It's annoying VPFree has a "minimum" or whatever -- the idea that something below some % return is not "playable".

I agree. I think they should indicate the best known pay table for each game and denomination, no matter how bad.

Quote: Wizard

I agree. I think they should indicate the best known pay table for each game and denomination, no matter how bad.

One game I do not think is on vpfree at all is BDW with 13-4-3 pay table, or 98.80%. They have the other BDW at 99.45% but not this one. The 13-4-3 game is a useful game in one's arsenal. Typically it is progressive, and I have my own little database of machines I have found around town, quarters and dollars. Many BDW games are 10-4-3, which makes it tough, but there are enough 13-4-3 games around to make it worth learning, imo. And the machines have a distinctive look to them usually and can be spotted a mile away. It's a fun game too.

Quote: Wizard

I agree. I think they should indicate the best known pay table for each game and denomination, no matter how bad.

Wizard, it would be awesome if you would take over the vpfree database.

Quote: AKT60

Wizard, it would be awesome if you would take over the vpfree database.

Then there would be nothing good to play. If you want to find and play the best games do your own scouting.

I definitely do my own scouting. Some days I do more scouting than playing.

Quote: Wizard

I agree. I think they should indicate the best known pay table for each game and denomination, no matter how bad.

I strongly disagree.

VPFree2 is run by volunteers. To do a good job of monitoring--- even limiting yourself to 98% or 99% games --- requires a very large amount of knowledge. Making sure you know every pay schedule for every game multiplies the knowledge needed several fold. And do you consider nickel single line different from nickel Triple Play?

I would be qualified to monitor a casino for over-99% games --- not that I'm ever going to volunteer --- although doing a perfect job would be very difficult. I am nowhere near qualified enough to know which nickel deuces wild game returns 96.3% which would make it reportable because the other nickel deuces wild games there only return 96.1%.

Especially if you include all of the new variations --- WOO website lists maybe 200 video poker games --- for each denom. Many of those games come in dozens of game types (i.e. JoB, BP, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.), each with their own variety of pay schedules within that game type. That is MULTIPLE THOUSANDS of different games+types and several have five or six different pay schedules. And you have to know them ALL because in any given casino a 94.3% game might be the best for a particular denomination.

On some All Star Poker machines, with separate tabs for perhaps 15 different game types (such as Ultimate X, or Quick Quads, or Multi Strike, or Trade Up Poker, or Ten Play, or Super Times Pay, or Double Super Times Pay, or blah blah blah. Each of these tabs offers several games for each denom. All told, maybe 300 different games ON ONE MACHINE. If you're knowledgeable about video poker, it's very possible to quickly conclude that all of these are less than 99%. If you have to record all 300 of them, and compare each one with other machines around the casino, you're talking about a BIG, BIG task.

Even if he took all his notes with him, I suggest Shack would have a devil of a time listing the returns of the best return for every game type for every denom for a large casino. And even if someone like Shack COULD perform that task, it's an unpaid position and things change and no matter how conscientiously you do the job, somebody will want more.

Not to mention that if you're spending that many hours checking machines and recording results, your actions will be noticed and several casinos will have security run you off for this. With maybe a little backrooming thrown in along the way for good measure. Conceivably a player could lose his welcome at a casino for providing a free service to a bunch of people he's never met, never going to meet, and who will be dissatisfied with whatever he comes up with.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, If a gimmick moves a game over 99% vpfree2 should list it.

For the Majestic Star 1 and 2, which I monitor, 13-4-3 bonus deuces does appear a number of times in the vpfree2 listings because Atomic Fever, Dice Fever and Double Super Times Pay versions are all over 99%.

Progressives are an interesting issue. The Majestic Star has a $1 progressive with the best base game at 98.12% (9-6 TDB). Because the feed rate is 1% this bank is often over 99% so it is listed. The 25c progressive is similar but the feed rate is 0.8% with the best base game at 97.4% (8-5 BP Dlx). Usually this game is under 99% so I do not list it but I have played it at just over the 100% level.

As to all the new unusual games, THANK YOU Wizard and Gary Koehler and everybody else for all the help analyzing those games.

I still have not got a clue about "Split Card" video poker.

Quote: BobDancer

I strongly disagree.

VPFree2 is run by volunteers. To do a good job of monitoring--- even limiting yourself to 98% or 99% games --- requires a very large amount of knowledge. Making sure you know every pay schedule for every game multiplies the knowledge needed several fold. And do you consider nickel single line different from nickel Triple Play?

I would be qualified to monitor a casino for over-99% games --- not that I'm ever going to volunteer --- although doing a perfect job would be very difficult. I am nowhere near qualified enough to know which nickel deuces wild game returns 96.3% which would make it reportable because the other nickel deuces wild games there only return 96.1%.

Especially if you include all of the new variations --- WOO website lists maybe 200 video poker games --- for each denom. Many of those games come in dozens of game types (i.e. JoB, BP, DB, DDB, TDB, etc.), each with their own variety of pay schedules within that game type. That is MULTIPLE THOUSANDS of different games+types and several have five or six different pay schedules. And you have to know them ALL because in any given casino a 94.3% game might be the best for a particular denomination.

On some All Star Poker machines, with separate tabs for perhaps 15 different game types (such as Ultimate X, or Quick Quads, or Multi Strike, or Trade Up Poker, or Ten Play, or Super Times Pay, or Double Super Times Pay, or blah blah blah. Each of these tabs offers several games for each denom. All told, maybe 300 different games ON ONE MACHINE. If you're knowledgeable about video poker, it's very possible to quickly conclude that all of these are less than 99%. If you have to record all 300 of them, and compare each one with other machines around the casino, you're talking about a BIG, BIG task.

Even if he took all his notes with him, I suggest Shack would have a devil of a time listing the returns of the best return for every game type for every denom for a large casino. And even if someone like Shack COULD perform that task, it's an unpaid position and things change and no matter how conscientiously you do the job, somebody will want more.

Not to mention that if you're spending that many hours checking machines and recording results, your actions will be noticed and several casinos will have security run you off for this. With maybe a little backrooming thrown in along the way for good measure. Conceivably a player could lose his welcome at a casino for providing a free service to a bunch of people he's never met, never going to meet, and who will be dissatisfied with whatever he comes up with.

You don't need to know the payback %'s to see a casino offers 9/5 DDB UX or 9/6 JoB MS.

I just dislike how they only try to report the best paying games and leave out other lower paying games ESPECIALLY if they're a higher denom that's not being recorded. I get its a volunteer job, but it creates this notion that this casino doesn't have X denom games (which IMO is more important than good paytables).

Quote: RS

You don't need to know the payback %'s to see a casino offers 9/5 DDB UX or 9/6 JoB MS.

I just dislike how they only try to report the best paying games and leave out other lower paying games ESPECIALLY if they're a higher denom that's not being recorded. I get its a volunteer job, but it creates this notion that this casino doesn't have X denom games (which IMO is more important than good paytables).

IMO VPfree should go away.

Quote: AxelWolf

IMO VPfree should go away.

I realize we have different perspectives but I'll respectfully disagree.

In my case I get to be in Vegas for maybe 80 hours at a time at most. I typically play -EV games ( I believe I am lifetime ahead at real poker even though the casino makes money on the games I play in ) but at least with VP Free I can allocate most of my video poker time where I have more of a fighting chance. I'm sure for pros having more information available to the public is annoying but if it causes some players to go to places they wouldn't otherwise visit to bang away at let's say a 99.5% machine that seems to be in most folks best interests.

And for those who wonder why I don't just play poker all the time, I typically am on vacation with friends who don't really like to play that much poker.

Quote: RS

You don't need to know the payback %'s to see a casino offers 9/5 DDB UX or 9/6 JoB MS.

That sentence is absolutely true.

But there are other games where it isn't so clear --- such as Deuces Wild pay schedules.

And I wasn't exaggerating when I said there can be 300 or more games on one All Star Poker machine. that's a LOT of recording of information, transcribing it, and checking back and forth when you find similar games on other machines in a casino. And the Super Star machines have a somewhat overlapping --- but not identical --- list of possible games.

Asking people to pay for information on vpFREE2 isn't going to be successful. And the ones who want the info for free are always demanding more.