pyiddy
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June 19th, 2016 at 6:51:51 AM permalink
Note: I am the vpfree2 monitor for the Majestic Star (Gary, IN) and Rivers (Des Plaines, IL)
The former has added a new bank of IGT VP with some very unusual games.
One of the groups is called "classical" but the games sure are not. I have been able to analyze 17 standard VP games and 3 Pick a Pair games with the help of the excellent "Wizard" tools. The 21st game stumps me!

For a one to five credit bet the game plays as NSUD except that quints pay 12 for 1 not 16 for 1.
If you play a sixth credit the game pays 6 (1 for 1) on three of a kind but all other hands pay as if a five credit bet.
The gave back is that all natural four of a kinds pay at least as good as a five credit bet for double double bonus.
Four natural Aces + 2, 3 or 4 pays 2000 (333-1/3 for 1)
Four natural Aces + no low pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)
Four natural Threes or Fours + A, 2, 3 or 4 pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)
Four natural Threes or Fours + no low pays 500 (83-1/3 for 1)
Four natural Fives through Kings pays 250 (41-2/3 for 1)
Note: If the fifth card with a natural quad is a deuce you only get paid for the highest value hand.

Any clues to the EV of this game? Strategy?

Note: thanks to the "Wizard" for his articles on Atomic Poker and Dice Fever also found on these machines. The Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy
GaryJKoehler
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June 24th, 2016 at 4:49:50 AM permalink
Quote: pyiddy

The Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy


Can you either list these pay outs or post pictures of the pay tables? Thanks.
ck1313
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June 24th, 2016 at 5:20:08 AM permalink
I also have this game at my local casino and was thinking about making this same post. I enjoy the game but also have some strategy questions.
beachbumbabs
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June 24th, 2016 at 7:26:53 AM permalink
Pyiddy,

Welcome to the forum! Great question. The Wizard is not available at the moment, but I'm sure he'll be interested, as are some of the other math guys, I'm sure.

Can you post the full pay tables (transcribe them) for us? You won't be able to post a link or picture as a new member, but if you have pictures instead, send me a link (from a place like tiny pic or other host) in a PM and I'll get it posted in the thread.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
GaryJKoehler
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June 24th, 2016 at 9:53:27 AM permalink
Quote: pyiddy

Note: I am the vpfree2 monitor for the Majestic Star (Gary, IN) and Rivers (Des Plaines, IL)
The former has added a new bank of IGT VP with some very unusual games.
One of the groups is called "classical" but the games sure are not. I have been able to analyze 17 standard VP games and 3 Pick a Pair games with the help of the excellent "Wizard" tools. The 21st game stumps me!

For a one to five credit bet the game plays as NSUD except that quints pay 12 for 1 not 16 for 1.
If you play a sixth credit the game pays 6 (1 for 1) on three of a kind but all other hands pay as if a five credit bet.
The gave back is that all natural four of a kinds pay at least as good as a five credit bet for double double bonus.
Four natural Aces + 2, 3 or 4 pays 2000 (333-1/3 for 1)
Four natural Aces + no low pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)
Four natural Threes or Fours + A, 2, 3 or 4 pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)
Four natural Threes or Fours + no low pays 500 (83-1/3 for 1)
Four natural Fives through Kings pays 250 (41-2/3 for 1)
Note: If the fifth card with a natural quad is a deuce you only get paid for the highest value hand.

Any clues to the EV of this game? Strategy?

Note: thanks to the "Wizard" for his articles on Atomic Poker and Dice Fever also found on these machines. The Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy


Assuming I'm interpreting your payouts correctly and haven't screwed up somewhere, I get the following:

Hand Pays Probability Return
Natural royal flush 800 2.23E-05 0.01783718
Four deuces 200 0.000193788 0.038757533
Wild royal flush 25 0.001919217 0.047980426
Five of a Kind 12 0.002726198 0.032714376
Straight flush 10 0.004987781 0.049877813
Four Natural Aces w 2-4 400 5.92E-05 0.023687175
Four Natural Aces w 5-K 200 0.000119889 0.023977825
Four Natural 3-4 w A-4 200 0.000118589 0.023717808
Four Natural 3-4 w 5-K 100 0.000240491 0.024049142
Four Natural 5-K 50 0.001479651 0.073982563
Four of a Kind 4 0.062120682 0.24848273
Full house 4 0.020953157 0.083812629
Flush 3 0.020014453 0.06004336
Straight 2 0.050237875 0.10047575
Three of a kind 1.2 0.28692546 0.344310552
Nothing 0 0.547881253 0
Total 1 1.193706862
EV 0.994755718
STD 5.888350701

Note, the total return is multiplied by the usual 5/6 since the game costs 6 coins.
GaryJKoehler
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June 24th, 2016 at 10:02:31 AM permalink
By the way, what is this game called on the machine?
vpplayer2016
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June 28th, 2016 at 4:40:29 PM permalink
What were the paytables for Fast Fours?
GaryJKoehler
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July 2nd, 2016 at 3:16:12 AM permalink
In another thread you said:
Quote: pyiddy

I made a serious error. The WRF is 100 not 125 for 5 or 6 coins.
This game is the same as 800-200-20-12-10-4-4-3-2-1 Deuces for 1-5 coins. The sixth coin pays 6 on 3 of a kind but all other hands pay like the 5 coin pay table. The sixth coin also pays all natural quads somewhat like DDB (4 natural aces + low 2000, 4 natural aces + no low 1000, 4 natural threes or fours + low 1000, four natural threes or fours + no low 500 and 4 natural fives through kings 250. Note: all these would have to be divided by 6 to get the one coin equivalent.)

pyiddy


Here is a revision. Hopefully the Wiz can weigh-in on this.
Hand Pays Probability Return
Natural royal flush 800 2.15E-05 0.017172235
Four deuces 200 0.000190502 0.038100447
Wild royal flush 20 0.001718026 0.034360527
Five of a Kind 12 0.002735171 0.03282205
Straight flush 10 0.005263673 0.052636727
Four Natural Aces w 2-4 400 5.96E-05 0.02385107
Four Natural Aces w 5-K 200 0.000121047 0.02420932
Four Natural 3-4 w A-4 200 0.000118709 0.023741877
Four Natural 3-4 w 5-K 100 0.000240641 0.024064071
Four Natural 5-K 50 0.001480031 0.074001539
Four of a Kind 4 0.062380612 0.249522448
Full house 4 0.020981256 0.083925023
Flush 3 0.020007672 0.060023016
Straight 2 0.050545965 0.101091929
Three of a kind 1.2 0.287421736 0.344906084
Nothing 0 0.546713866 0
Total 1 1.184428365
EV 0.987023637
STD 5.829137242
JB
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July 2nd, 2016 at 10:35:02 AM permalink
(my initial results were incorrect and have been removed) - my figures agree with the ones shown above.
Last edited by: JB on Jul 2, 2016
pyiddy
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July 2nd, 2016 at 10:42:50 AM permalink
Thank You. Unfortunately I made a serious error, The Wild Royal is 20 not 25 on the game I saw yesterday. I suspect all six machines in this bank are that. I will probably check all six machines the next time I am there.
JB
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July 2nd, 2016 at 10:43:58 AM permalink
Quote: pyiddy

Thank You. Unfortunately I made a serious error, The Wild Royal is 20 not 25 on the game I saw yesterday. I suspect all six machines in this bank are that. I will probably check all six machines the next time I am there.


My calculations reflect the 20-for-1 Wild Royal.
pyiddy
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July 2nd, 2016 at 10:44:34 AM permalink
Sorry I did not notice that you already corrected it! Great! Sadly this game is not good enough to be included in the vpfree2 database.
GaryJKoehler
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July 2nd, 2016 at 12:41:22 PM permalink
Quote: JB

Hand Prize in Coins Combinations Probability Return
Natural Royal Flush 4,000 35,669,481 0.000021 0.014316
Four Aces w/2,3,4 2,000 99,046,149 0.000060 0.019876
Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4 1,000 148,215,056 0.000089 0.014871
Four Aces 1,000 201,066,761 0.000121 0.020174
Four Deuces 1,000 316,437,516 0.000190 0.031750
Four 3s,4s 500 448,691,121 0.000270 0.022510
Four 5s thru Ks 250 2,458,483,462 0.001480 0.061668
Wild Royal Flush 100 2,854,239,388 0.001718 0.028638
Five of a Kind 60 4,543,337,474 0.002735 0.027351
Straight Flush 50 8,743,692,487 0.005264 0.043865
Four of a Kind 20 103,618,305,434 0.062379 0.207931
Full House 20 34,851,655,759 0.020981 0.069937
Flush 15 33,236,557,398 0.020009 0.050022
Straight 10 83,964,334,210 0.050547 0.084246
Three of a Kind 6 477,423,963,017 0.287414 0.287414
All Other 0 908,158,848,387 0.546721 0.000000
Totals 1,661,102,543,100 1.000000 0.984567


Out of intellectual curiosity, comparing our two probability tables, I see we only differ significantly in our results on "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" and "Four 3s,4s". I get very close to your results when I change the "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" to just the w/2,3,4 kickers instead of w/A,2,3,4. I am probably missing something, and neither result will make a difference for pyiddy, but I thought I should pursue this for my sanity.
JB
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July 2nd, 2016 at 12:46:52 PM permalink
Quote: GaryJKoehler

Out of intellectual curiosity, comparing our two probability tables, I see we only differ significantly in our results on "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" and "Four 3s,4s". I get very close to your results when I change the "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" to just the w/2,3,4 kickers instead of w/A,2,3,4. I am probably missing something, and neither result will make a difference for pyiddy, but I thought I should pursue this for my sanity.


Ah, you just reminded me of something that I thought of as I was writing the hand-scoring code, but neglected to implement it when I got the part where it was needed: the special case of an Ace kicker with four 3s or 4s (since I treat Aces as high in my code).

Fixing that, my results agree with yours. I'll remove my table since it's now redundant.
GaryJKoehler
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July 2nd, 2016 at 1:04:26 PM permalink
Thanks!
tringlomane
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July 2nd, 2016 at 1:19:13 PM permalink
Quote: vpplayer2016

What were the paytables for Fast Fours?



I played the unit in question back in May. I want to say that Bonus was 6/5 and DDB was 8/5, with the rest of the paytable the same as the WOO page. This would lead Bonus to be about 98.7% and DDB about 98.5%.

The best game I saw on there was 9/6 Triple Triple Bonus (99.75%). The game ate me alive in all the variants I tried though. Lol

Thanks JB and Gary for looking at this previously unanalyzed game!
pyiddy
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July 4th, 2016 at 6:43:03 AM permalink
Slightly off topic.

Tringlomane: You are absolutely right in that 9-6 TTB is the highest EV game on those six machines (With huge variance!)
Note: Other units on both the Majestic Star (6 machines) and the Majestic Star 2 (8 machines) have 9-5 Triple Bonus Plus (99.80%).
Those 14 machines are also 25c/50c/$1. Six of those units are the ones closer to the bar next to the unit(s) you played.
My mom and I played the two units in non-smoking last Friday. (I was lucky enough to catch quad aces for a win and my mom had a small win too.
We lost a small amount on the machines we are talking about in this thread.)
Sadly, comps are based on theo and those machines are basically rated as zero so still below 100% EV.
Wizard
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kgb92
April 20th, 2017 at 4:57:48 PM permalink
Sorry to be late to the party. Last week I paid a quick visit to the Oneida casino in Green Bay, WI. They had this video poker game there. Here is a picture of the pay table.


Click on image for a larger version.

Note how a three of a kind pays 6 in the far right column. The right column shows the win for six coins bet.

Here is my return table for the pay table above:

Hand Pays Combinations Probability Return
Natural royal flush 800 427,485,648 0.000021 0.014297
Four deuces 200 4,048,556,640 0.000203 0.033851
Natural four aces + 2-4 400 1,189,302,084 0.000060 0.019888
Natural four 3s,4s + A-4 200 2,368,472,112 0.000119 0.019803
Natural four aces + 5-K 200 2,413,175,652 0.000121 0.020177
Natural four 3s,4s + 5-K 100 4,796,945,376 0.000241 0.020054
Natural four 5s-Ks 50 29,516,552,952 0.001481 0.061699
Wild royal flush 20 36,039,849,216 0.001808 0.030134
Five of a kind 10 55,621,154,280 0.002790 0.023253
Straight flush 8 87,944,973,252 0.004412 0.029413
Four of a kind 4 1,260,088,801,632 0.063215 0.210718
Full house 4 419,156,681,640 0.021028 0.070093
Flush 3 387,343,207,644 0.019432 0.048580
Straight 2 998,148,529,644 0.050075 0.083458
Three of a kind 1.2 5,756,005,553,028 0.288764 0.288764
Nothing 0 10,888,121,276,400 0.546230 0.000000
Total 0 19,933,230,517,200 1.000000 0.974184


Next, here is my return for the "Gary Kohler" pay table mentioned earlier in this thread.


Event Pays Combinations Probability Return
Natural royal flush 800 427,872,648 0.000021 0.014310
Four deuces 200 3,797,325,012 0.000191 0.031750
Natural four aces + 2-4 400 1,188,572,208 0.000060 0.019876
Natural four 3s,4s + A-4 200 2,366,261,508 0.000119 0.019785
Natural four aces + 5-K 200 2,412,849,792 0.000121 0.020174
Natural four 3s,4s + 5-K 100 4,796,746,776 0.000241 0.020053
Natural four 5s-Ks 50 29,501,794,836 0.001480 0.061668
Wild royal flush 20 34,245,815,520 0.001718 0.028634
Five of a kind 12 54,520,790,928 0.002735 0.027352
Straight flush 10 104,922,000,504 0.005264 0.043864
Four of a kind 4 1,243,447,119,048 0.062381 0.207935
Full house 4 418,224,207,972 0.020981 0.069938
Flush 3 398,817,540,528 0.020008 0.050019
Straight 2 1,007,544,366,888 0.050546 0.084243
Three of a kind 1.2 5,729,243,727,792 0.287422 0.287422
Nothing 0 10,897,773,525,240 0.546714 0.000000
Total 19,933,230,517,200 1.000000 0.987024


In addition, I have a new page on the game at my Odds site. I welcome all comments on it.
Last edited by: Wizard on Apr 20, 2017
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ck1313
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April 20th, 2017 at 8:37:58 PM permalink
Wiz
I live ten minutes from oneidas casino and play this game once in awhile. Just curious what brought you to Green Bay?
PlayYourCardsRight
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April 20th, 2017 at 9:06:42 PM permalink
I'm two hours away and this is one of my favorite games. Hot 4 drives a couple weeks ago.

Why didn't you tell us you were visiting?
Wizard
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April 20th, 2017 at 9:20:16 PM permalink
Quote: ck1313

Wiz
I live ten minutes from oneidas casino and play this game once in awhile. Just curious what brought you to Green Bay?



I was visiting my brother in northern Wisconsin. Flew into Chicago and Green Bay was on the way. Have you ever been to Cheesecake Heaven?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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April 20th, 2017 at 9:21:43 PM permalink
Quote: PlayYourCardsRight

I'm two hours away and this is one of my favorite games. Hot 4 drives a couple weeks ago.

Why didn't you tell us you were visiting?



I don't like to broadcast to everyone when I'm not at home. Besides, I had two of my kids with me so making social calls would not have worked out well.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ck1313
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April 20th, 2017 at 10:25:10 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I was visiting my brother in northern Wisconsin. Flew into Chicago and Green Bay was on the way. Have you ever been to Cheesecake Heaven?



You know I've never been there. Mainly because I don't like cheesecake but I looked at their website and it looks like they have a lot more then that. I'll have to check it out sometime. I have a cabin in rhinelander, which is in northern wisconsin, who knows maybe I'm neighbors with your brother.
AxelWolf
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April 20th, 2017 at 10:26:19 PM permalink
it's a fun game.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
gordonm888
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April 21st, 2017 at 8:10:08 AM permalink
Could someone post the where the strategy rules are for this VP game? (presumably on the WOO site)
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
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April 21st, 2017 at 8:31:51 AM permalink
Quote: ck1313

You know I've never been there. Mainly because I don't like cheesecake but I looked at their website and it looks like they have a lot more then that. I'll have to check it out sometime. I have a cabin in rhinelander, which is in northern wisconsin, who knows maybe I'm neighbors with your brother.



Yes, they have a lot more stuff than cheesecake. I think they may change your position on cheesecake too.

My brother is further north than your place.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
PlayYourCardsRight
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April 21st, 2017 at 1:47:06 PM permalink
Sorry I missed you. I don't get out West often and would have liked to meet. Maybe another time when you are this way.
Jasonisgreen
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June 26th, 2019 at 8:23:49 AM permalink
Any chance someone can calculate the payout for this pay table that I came across:

6 coins

4000
1000
2000
1000
1000
500
250
125
75
50
20
15
10
10
6

Thanks
tringlomane
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June 26th, 2019 at 8:49:08 AM permalink
Dang. I was hoping IGT didn't use a table like this. The Deuces portion of the paytable is modeled after the 94.82% version of Deuces Wild. The return of this game that has the 95.96% Deuces version payouts is 97.42%.

Deuces paytable frame...Overall Return...Increase

97.58%...98.70%...1.12%
95.96%...97.42%...1.46%
94.82%...???...???

My guess it's somewhere in the 96.4%-96.5% range. :(

Wizard, Gary J Koehler, or JB might have the code to calculate this exactly. I would love to see the game on the site's VP strategy calculator. *coughs*
GaryJKoehler
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Jasonisgreentringlomane
June 26th, 2019 at 1:26:26 PM permalink
Quote: Jasonisgreen

Any chance someone can calculate the payout for this pay table that I came across:

6 coins

4000
1000
2000
1000
1000
500
250
125
75
50
20
15
10
10
6

Thanks


Assuming these pays are in the same order as the Wiz's tables on the prior page of this thread and that I copied them correctly, the EV is 96.931691183607.
tringlomane
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June 26th, 2019 at 8:54:17 PM permalink
Quote: GaryJKoehler

Assuming these pays are in the same order as the Wiz's tables on the prior page of this thread and that I copied them correctly, the EV is 96.931691183607.



Thanks Gary. Bigger than I expected. But then again, since flushes and full houses are devalued, it makes a bigger difference, along with the natural quad values remaining unchanged.

Just one dealt pair will be held, and makes a bigger difference since the full house is only 15.

Same goes with pair with 4 flush.

And now if I did the math right, you'll break all dealt natural full houses now instead of just Aces-4s full.
GaryJKoehler
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Jasonisgreentringlomane
June 27th, 2019 at 3:22:58 AM permalink
I popped examples of each of your three predictions and they all agree. For example:
Dealt: 7C 7D 6S 9H 9S, hold either pair but not both.
Dealt: 5C 7C JC KC JD, hold the Jacks.
Dealt: 7C 7D 7H 9H 9S, hold the 7s.
Of course, this doesn't prove the general case, but your instincts seem good.
daveabby
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May 2nd, 2022 at 3:12:22 PM permalink
Hi,
First post. I played this game recently at Foxwoods in CT. My question is when dealt 4 of a kind (with one deuce), should you discard the deuce in the hopes of having two chances to catch the Natural four of a kind or keep the deuce and go for 5 of a kind?
Thanks
GaryJKoehler
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Butnpushr
May 5th, 2022 at 7:12:25 AM permalink
For the 98.70 version of the game, here are some EVs given 3 Aces, Deuce and a 4:

Holds:
Deuce plus 3 Aces: EV=10.780
Three Aces: EV=10.031
3 Aces and 4: EV=8.3688
daveabby
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May 5th, 2022 at 7:19:13 AM permalink
Thank you!
Hunterhill
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July 10th, 2022 at 6:33:36 PM permalink
What would the return be for this version

6 coins
Natural royal. 4000
4 deuces. 1000
4aces + 2,3,4. 2000
4 aces. 1000
4 3s or 4s + A,2,3,4. 1000
4 3s or 4s 500
4 5-k. 250
Wild royal. 125
5ofkind. 75
St flush. 45
4Kind. 20
Fh. 20
Fl. 15
St. 10
3k. 6
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
GaryJKoehler
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July 11th, 2022 at 3:23:23 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

What would the return be for this version

6 coins
Natural royal. 4000
4 deuces. 1000
4aces + 2,3,4. 2000
4 aces. 1000
4 3s or 4s + A,2,3,4. 1000
4 3s or 4s 500
4 5-k. 250
Wild royal. 125
5ofkind. 75
St flush. 45
4Kind. 20
Fh. 20
Fl. 15
St. 10
3k. 6
link to original post


EV=99.76%
Standard deviation = 5.889
Hunterhill
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July 11th, 2022 at 3:49:06 AM permalink
Thanks Gary!
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
Butnpushr
Butnpushr
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Joined: Dec 17, 2019
February 29th, 2024 at 11:36:46 AM permalink
Have you ever seen this out in the wild?
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