The former has added a new bank of IGT VP with some very unusual games.

One of the groups is called "classical" but the games sure are not. I have been able to analyze 17 standard VP games and 3 Pick a Pair games with the help of the excellent "Wizard" tools. The 21st game stumps me!

For a one to five credit bet the game plays as NSUD except that quints pay 12 for 1 not 16 for 1.

If you play a sixth credit the game pays 6 (1 for 1) on three of a kind but all other hands pay as if a five credit bet.

The gave back is that all natural four of a kinds pay at least as good as a five credit bet for double double bonus.

Four natural Aces + 2, 3 or 4 pays 2000 (333-1/3 for 1)

Four natural Aces + no low pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)

Four natural Threes or Fours + A, 2, 3 or 4 pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)

Four natural Threes or Fours + no low pays 500 (83-1/3 for 1)

Four natural Fives through Kings pays 250 (41-2/3 for 1)

Note: If the fifth card with a natural quad is a deuce you only get paid for the highest value hand.

Any clues to the EV of this game? Strategy?

Note: thanks to the "Wizard" for his articles on Atomic Poker and Dice Fever also found on these machines. The Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy

Quote:pyiddyThe Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy

Can you either list these pay outs or post pictures of the pay tables? Thanks.

Welcome to the forum! Great question. The Wizard is not available at the moment, but I'm sure he'll be interested, as are some of the other math guys, I'm sure.

Can you post the full pay tables (transcribe them) for us? You won't be able to post a link or picture as a new member, but if you have pictures instead, send me a link (from a place like tiny pic or other host) in a PM and I'll get it posted in the thread.

Quote:pyiddyNote: I am the vpfree2 monitor for the Majestic Star (Gary, IN) and Rivers (Des Plaines, IL)

The former has added a new bank of IGT VP with some very unusual games.

One of the groups is called "classical" but the games sure are not. I have been able to analyze 17 standard VP games and 3 Pick a Pair games with the help of the excellent "Wizard" tools. The 21st game stumps me!

For a one to five credit bet the game plays as NSUD except that quints pay 12 for 1 not 16 for 1.

If you play a sixth credit the game pays 6 (1 for 1) on three of a kind but all other hands pay as if a five credit bet.

The gave back is that all natural four of a kinds pay at least as good as a five credit bet for double double bonus.

Four natural Aces + 2, 3 or 4 pays 2000 (333-1/3 for 1)

Four natural Aces + no low pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)

Four natural Threes or Fours + A, 2, 3 or 4 pays 1000 (166-2/3 for 1)

Four natural Threes or Fours + no low pays 500 (83-1/3 for 1)

Four natural Fives through Kings pays 250 (41-2/3 for 1)

Note: If the fifth card with a natural quad is a deuce you only get paid for the highest value hand.

Any clues to the EV of this game? Strategy?

Note: thanks to the "Wizard" for his articles on Atomic Poker and Dice Fever also found on these machines. The Fast Fours on these machines have better pay tables than those shown in the "Wizard" article.

pyiddy

Assuming I'm interpreting your payouts correctly and haven't screwed up somewhere, I get the following:

Hand | Pays | Probability | Return |
---|---|---|---|

Natural royal flush | 800 | 2.23E-05 | 0.01783718 |

Four deuces | 200 | 0.000193788 | 0.038757533 |

Wild royal flush | 25 | 0.001919217 | 0.047980426 |

Five of a Kind | 12 | 0.002726198 | 0.032714376 |

Straight flush | 10 | 0.004987781 | 0.049877813 |

Four Natural Aces w 2-4 | 400 | 5.92E-05 | 0.023687175 |

Four Natural Aces w 5-K | 200 | 0.000119889 | 0.023977825 |

Four Natural 3-4 w A-4 | 200 | 0.000118589 | 0.023717808 |

Four Natural 3-4 w 5-K | 100 | 0.000240491 | 0.024049142 |

Four Natural 5-K | 50 | 0.001479651 | 0.073982563 |

Four of a Kind | 4 | 0.062120682 | 0.24848273 |

Full house | 4 | 0.020953157 | 0.083812629 |

Flush | 3 | 0.020014453 | 0.06004336 |

Straight | 2 | 0.050237875 | 0.10047575 |

Three of a kind | 1.2 | 0.28692546 | 0.344310552 |

Nothing | 0 | 0.547881253 | 0 |

Total | 1 | 1.193706862 | |

EV | 0.994755718 | ||

STD | 5.888350701 |

Note, the total return is multiplied by the usual 5/6 since the game costs 6 coins.

Quote:pyiddyI made a serious error. The WRF is 100 not 125 for 5 or 6 coins.

This game is the same as 800-200-20-12-10-4-4-3-2-1 Deuces for 1-5 coins. The sixth coin pays 6 on 3 of a kind but all other hands pay like the 5 coin pay table. The sixth coin also pays all natural quads somewhat like DDB (4 natural aces + low 2000, 4 natural aces + no low 1000, 4 natural threes or fours + low 1000, four natural threes or fours + no low 500 and 4 natural fives through kings 250. Note: all these would have to be divided by 6 to get the one coin equivalent.)

pyiddy

Here is a revision. Hopefully the Wiz can weigh-in on this.

Hand | Pays | Probability | Return |
---|---|---|---|

Natural royal flush | 800 | 2.15E-05 | 0.017172235 |

Four deuces | 200 | 0.000190502 | 0.038100447 |

Wild royal flush | 20 | 0.001718026 | 0.034360527 |

Five of a Kind | 12 | 0.002735171 | 0.03282205 |

Straight flush | 10 | 0.005263673 | 0.052636727 |

Four Natural Aces w 2-4 | 400 | 5.96E-05 | 0.02385107 |

Four Natural Aces w 5-K | 200 | 0.000121047 | 0.02420932 |

Four Natural 3-4 w A-4 | 200 | 0.000118709 | 0.023741877 |

Four Natural 3-4 w 5-K | 100 | 0.000240641 | 0.024064071 |

Four Natural 5-K | 50 | 0.001480031 | 0.074001539 |

Four of a Kind | 4 | 0.062380612 | 0.249522448 |

Full house | 4 | 0.020981256 | 0.083925023 |

Flush | 3 | 0.020007672 | 0.060023016 |

Straight | 2 | 0.050545965 | 0.101091929 |

Three of a kind | 1.2 | 0.287421736 | 0.344906084 |

Nothing | 0 | 0.546713866 | 0 |

Total | 1 | 1.184428365 | |

EV | 0.987023637 | ||

STD | 5.829137242 |

Quote:pyiddyThank You. Unfortunately I made a serious error, The Wild Royal is 20 not 25 on the game I saw yesterday. I suspect all six machines in this bank are that. I will probably check all six machines the next time I am there.

My calculations reflect the 20-for-1 Wild Royal.

Quote:JB

Hand Prize in Coins Combinations Probability Return Natural Royal Flush 4,000 35,669,481 0.000021 0.014316 Four Aces w/2,3,4 2,000 99,046,149 0.000060 0.019876 Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4 1,000 148,215,056 0.000089 0.014871 Four Aces 1,000 201,066,761 0.000121 0.020174 Four Deuces 1,000 316,437,516 0.000190 0.031750 Four 3s,4s 500 448,691,121 0.000270 0.022510 Four 5s thru Ks 250 2,458,483,462 0.001480 0.061668 Wild Royal Flush 100 2,854,239,388 0.001718 0.028638 Five of a Kind 60 4,543,337,474 0.002735 0.027351 Straight Flush 50 8,743,692,487 0.005264 0.043865 Four of a Kind 20 103,618,305,434 0.062379 0.207931 Full House 20 34,851,655,759 0.020981 0.069937 Flush 15 33,236,557,398 0.020009 0.050022 Straight 10 83,964,334,210 0.050547 0.084246 Three of a Kind 6 477,423,963,017 0.287414 0.287414 All Other 0 908,158,848,387 0.546721 0.000000 Totals 1,661,102,543,100 1.000000 0.984567

Out of intellectual curiosity, comparing our two probability tables, I see we only differ significantly in our results on "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" and "Four 3s,4s". I get very close to your results when I change the "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" to just the w/2,3,4 kickers instead of w/A,2,3,4. I am probably missing something, and neither result will make a difference for pyiddy, but I thought I should pursue this for my sanity.

Quote:GaryJKoehlerOut of intellectual curiosity, comparing our two probability tables, I see we only differ significantly in our results on "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" and "Four 3s,4s". I get very close to your results when I change the "Four 3s,4s w/A,2,3,4" to just the w/2,3,4 kickers instead of w/A,2,3,4. I am probably missing something, and neither result will make a difference for pyiddy, but I thought I should pursue this for my sanity.

Ah, you just reminded me of something that I thought of as I was writing the hand-scoring code, but neglected to implement it when I got the part where it was needed: the special case of an Ace kicker with four 3s or 4s (since I treat Aces as high in my code).

Fixing that, my results agree with yours. I'll remove my table since it's now redundant.

Quote:vpplayer2016What were the paytables for Fast Fours?

I played the unit in question back in May. I want to say that Bonus was 6/5 and DDB was 8/5, with the rest of the paytable the same as the WOO page. This would lead Bonus to be about 98.7% and DDB about 98.5%.

The best game I saw on there was 9/6 Triple Triple Bonus (99.75%). The game ate me alive in all the variants I tried though. Lol

Thanks JB and Gary for looking at this previously unanalyzed game!

Tringlomane: You are absolutely right in that 9-6 TTB is the highest EV game on those six machines (With huge variance!)

Note: Other units on both the Majestic Star (6 machines) and the Majestic Star 2 (8 machines) have 9-5 Triple Bonus Plus (99.80%).

Those 14 machines are also 25c/50c/$1. Six of those units are the ones closer to the bar next to the unit(s) you played.

My mom and I played the two units in non-smoking last Friday. (I was lucky enough to catch quad aces for a win and my mom had a small win too.

We lost a small amount on the machines we are talking about in this thread.)

Sadly, comps are based on theo and those machines are basically rated as zero so still below 100% EV.

Click on image for a larger version.

Note how a three of a kind pays 6 in the far right column. The right column shows the win for six coins bet.

Here is my return table for the pay table above:

Hand | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
---|---|---|---|---|

Natural royal flush | 800 | 427,485,648 | 0.000021 | 0.014297 |

Four deuces | 200 | 4,048,556,640 | 0.000203 | 0.033851 |

Natural four aces + 2-4 | 400 | 1,189,302,084 | 0.000060 | 0.019888 |

Natural four 3s,4s + A-4 | 200 | 2,368,472,112 | 0.000119 | 0.019803 |

Natural four aces + 5-K | 200 | 2,413,175,652 | 0.000121 | 0.020177 |

Natural four 3s,4s + 5-K | 100 | 4,796,945,376 | 0.000241 | 0.020054 |

Natural four 5s-Ks | 50 | 29,516,552,952 | 0.001481 | 0.061699 |

Wild royal flush | 20 | 36,039,849,216 | 0.001808 | 0.030134 |

Five of a kind | 10 | 55,621,154,280 | 0.002790 | 0.023253 |

Straight flush | 8 | 87,944,973,252 | 0.004412 | 0.029413 |

Four of a kind | 4 | 1,260,088,801,632 | 0.063215 | 0.210718 |

Full house | 4 | 419,156,681,640 | 0.021028 | 0.070093 |

Flush | 3 | 387,343,207,644 | 0.019432 | 0.048580 |

Straight | 2 | 998,148,529,644 | 0.050075 | 0.083458 |

Three of a kind | 1.2 | 5,756,005,553,028 | 0.288764 | 0.288764 |

Nothing | 0 | 10,888,121,276,400 | 0.546230 | 0.000000 |

Total | 0 | 19,933,230,517,200 | 1.000000 | 0.974184 |

Next, here is my return for the "Gary Kohler" pay table mentioned earlier in this thread.

Event | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
---|---|---|---|---|

Natural royal flush | 800 | 427,872,648 | 0.000021 | 0.014310 |

Four deuces | 200 | 3,797,325,012 | 0.000191 | 0.031750 |

Natural four aces + 2-4 | 400 | 1,188,572,208 | 0.000060 | 0.019876 |

Natural four 3s,4s + A-4 | 200 | 2,366,261,508 | 0.000119 | 0.019785 |

Natural four aces + 5-K | 200 | 2,412,849,792 | 0.000121 | 0.020174 |

Natural four 3s,4s + 5-K | 100 | 4,796,746,776 | 0.000241 | 0.020053 |

Natural four 5s-Ks | 50 | 29,501,794,836 | 0.001480 | 0.061668 |

Wild royal flush | 20 | 34,245,815,520 | 0.001718 | 0.028634 |

Five of a kind | 12 | 54,520,790,928 | 0.002735 | 0.027352 |

Straight flush | 10 | 104,922,000,504 | 0.005264 | 0.043864 |

Four of a kind | 4 | 1,243,447,119,048 | 0.062381 | 0.207935 |

Full house | 4 | 418,224,207,972 | 0.020981 | 0.069938 |

Flush | 3 | 398,817,540,528 | 0.020008 | 0.050019 |

Straight | 2 | 1,007,544,366,888 | 0.050546 | 0.084243 |

Three of a kind | 1.2 | 5,729,243,727,792 | 0.287422 | 0.287422 |

Nothing | 0 | 10,897,773,525,240 | 0.546714 | 0.000000 |

Total | 19,933,230,517,200 | 1.000000 | 0.987024 |

In addition, I have a new page on the game at my Odds site. I welcome all comments on it.

I live ten minutes from oneidas casino and play this game once in awhile. Just curious what brought you to Green Bay?

Why didn't you tell us you were visiting?

Quote:ck1313Wiz

I live ten minutes from oneidas casino and play this game once in awhile. Just curious what brought you to Green Bay?

I was visiting my brother in northern Wisconsin. Flew into Chicago and Green Bay was on the way. Have you ever been to Cheesecake Heaven?

Quote:PlayYourCardsRightI'm two hours away and this is one of my favorite games. Hot 4 drives a couple weeks ago.

Why didn't you tell us you were visiting?

I don't like to broadcast to everyone when I'm not at home. Besides, I had two of my kids with me so making social calls would not have worked out well.

Quote:WizardI was visiting my brother in northern Wisconsin. Flew into Chicago and Green Bay was on the way. Have you ever been to Cheesecake Heaven?

You know I've never been there. Mainly because I don't like cheesecake but I looked at their website and it looks like they have a lot more then that. I'll have to check it out sometime. I have a cabin in rhinelander, which is in northern wisconsin, who knows maybe I'm neighbors with your brother.

Quote:ck1313You know I've never been there. Mainly because I don't like cheesecake but I looked at their website and it looks like they have a lot more then that. I'll have to check it out sometime. I have a cabin in rhinelander, which is in northern wisconsin, who knows maybe I'm neighbors with your brother.

Yes, they have a lot more stuff than cheesecake. I think they may change your position on cheesecake too.

My brother is further north than your place.

6 coins

4000

1000

2000

1000

1000

500

250

125

75

50

20

15

10

10

6

Thanks

Deuces paytable frame...Overall Return...Increase

97.58%...98.70%...1.12%

95.96%...97.42%...1.46%

94.82%...???...???

My guess it's somewhere in the 96.4%-96.5% range. :(

Wizard, Gary J Koehler, or JB might have the code to calculate this exactly. I would love to see the game on the site's VP strategy calculator. *coughs*

Quote:JasonisgreenAny chance someone can calculate the payout for this pay table that I came across:

6 coins

4000

1000

2000

1000

1000

500

250

125

75

50

20

15

10

10

6

Thanks

Assuming these pays are in the same order as the Wiz's tables on the prior page of this thread and that I copied them correctly, the EV is 96.931691183607.

Quote:GaryJKoehlerAssuming these pays are in the same order as the Wiz's tables on the prior page of this thread and that I copied them correctly, the EV is 96.931691183607.

Thanks Gary. Bigger than I expected. But then again, since flushes and full houses are devalued, it makes a bigger difference, along with the natural quad values remaining unchanged.

Just one dealt pair will be held, and makes a bigger difference since the full house is only 15.

Same goes with pair with 4 flush.

And now if I did the math right, you'll break all dealt natural full houses now instead of just Aces-4s full.

Dealt: 7C 7D 6S 9H 9S, hold either pair but not both.

Dealt: 5C 7C JC KC JD, hold the Jacks.

Dealt: 7C 7D 7H 9H 9S, hold the 7s.

Of course, this doesn't prove the general case, but your instincts seem good.

First post. I played this game recently at Foxwoods in CT. My question is when dealt 4 of a kind (with one deuce), should you discard the deuce in the hopes of having two chances to catch the Natural four of a kind or keep the deuce and go for 5 of a kind?

Thanks

Holds:

Deuce plus 3 Aces: EV=10.780

Three Aces: EV=10.031

3 Aces and 4: EV=8.3688

6 coins

Natural royal. 4000

4 deuces. 1000

4aces + 2,3,4. 2000

4 aces. 1000

4 3s or 4s + A,2,3,4. 1000

4 3s or 4s 500

4 5-k. 250

Wild royal. 125

5ofkind. 75

St flush. 45

4Kind. 20

Fh. 20

Fl. 15

St. 10

3k. 6

Quote:HunterhillWhat would the return be for this version

6 coins

Natural royal. 4000

4 deuces. 1000

4aces + 2,3,4. 2000

4 aces. 1000

4 3s or 4s + A,2,3,4. 1000

4 3s or 4s 500

4 5-k. 250

Wild royal. 125

5ofkind. 75

St flush. 45

4Kind. 20

Fh. 20

Fl. 15

St. 10

3k. 6

link to original post

EV=99.76%

Standard deviation = 5.889