Why I do not Vulture Ultimate X
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June 11th, 2016 at 11:16:07 PM
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Vulturing is definitely positive EV for many players. Not for me.
I am a well-known successful player. It’s way too late for me to choose to go the “low profile” route now.
My assumption going into a casino is everything I do is being monitored --- whether by employees or eye-in-the-sky. Clearly that can’t be true 100% of the time, but if I act as if it IS true that often, I never get caught doing things the casino thinks is a “shot.”
Things like vulturing Ultimate X.
Things like card-pulling.
Things like sitting down at machines with abandoned credits and collecting them --- with or without playing some first.
The reason these things are considered “shots” is because the casino has no chance to win my money today. If I’m gambling with an edge, on any given day the casino has a great shot at winning against me. I like my chances in the long run --- but at least it appears to be more of a fair game. A casino might be able to live with this --- especially if I write articles about things that happen to me at various casinos.
Avoiding these things is not done from a space of moral superiority. In the 22 years I’ve been playing “professionally,” (using that term loosely for the first few years), I’ve done similar things and more. But when I was playing for quarters, I was not somebody who frightened the casinos at all. At that time I had nothing to lose.
It’s done from a space of “at least some managers in every casino question the casino’s decision to let me play.” It’s foolhardy to give them any ammunition to restrict me. So I don’t.
Now there are relatively few casinos where I’m welcome to play and have decent games higher than $1. Losing even one of this is to be avoided if I can.
While I’m one of the most recognizable video poker pros, my situation is not unique. There are a number of successful players who would be wise to at least consider whether the temporary EV of doing these things outweighs the loss of EV if you’re 86’d (multiplied by the chances of your being caught and “punished.”)
I am a well-known successful player. It’s way too late for me to choose to go the “low profile” route now.
My assumption going into a casino is everything I do is being monitored --- whether by employees or eye-in-the-sky. Clearly that can’t be true 100% of the time, but if I act as if it IS true that often, I never get caught doing things the casino thinks is a “shot.”
Things like vulturing Ultimate X.
Things like card-pulling.
Things like sitting down at machines with abandoned credits and collecting them --- with or without playing some first.
The reason these things are considered “shots” is because the casino has no chance to win my money today. If I’m gambling with an edge, on any given day the casino has a great shot at winning against me. I like my chances in the long run --- but at least it appears to be more of a fair game. A casino might be able to live with this --- especially if I write articles about things that happen to me at various casinos.
Avoiding these things is not done from a space of moral superiority. In the 22 years I’ve been playing “professionally,” (using that term loosely for the first few years), I’ve done similar things and more. But when I was playing for quarters, I was not somebody who frightened the casinos at all. At that time I had nothing to lose.
It’s done from a space of “at least some managers in every casino question the casino’s decision to let me play.” It’s foolhardy to give them any ammunition to restrict me. So I don’t.
Now there are relatively few casinos where I’m welcome to play and have decent games higher than $1. Losing even one of this is to be avoided if I can.
While I’m one of the most recognizable video poker pros, my situation is not unique. There are a number of successful players who would be wise to at least consider whether the temporary EV of doing these things outweighs the loss of EV if you’re 86’d (multiplied by the chances of your being caught and “punished.”)
June 11th, 2016 at 11:48:03 PM
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What are the ramifications of being caught vulturing machines? Do the casinos consider abandoned credits as theirs?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
June 11th, 2016 at 11:57:51 PM
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If I had the same notoriety as you, I wouldn't do anything that's not considered normal play by any stretch of the imagination.
But I think vulturing and card pulling are strategies, where playing forgotten credits is bordline theft.
But I think vulturing and card pulling are strategies, where playing forgotten credits is bordline theft.
June 12th, 2016 at 12:37:21 AM
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Quote: billryanWhat are the ramifications of being caught vulturing machines? Do the casinos consider abandoned credits as theirs?
Haven't heard of any casual vultures facing any serious consequences. In my experience, the guys who camp out for hours behind banks of UX and Spielos are often approached by security and not seen on premises again.
100% risk of ruin
June 12th, 2016 at 5:08:03 AM
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Quote: BobDancer
Things like card-pulling.
I was under the impression card pulling was a thing of the past. That modern machines would credit the outcome of a spin / hand to a players account even if the card is pulled while the spin / hand is still in progress.
Is there a way to tell on which machines card pulling still makes sense?
June 12th, 2016 at 9:45:54 AM
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Quote: CanyoneroI was under the impression card pulling was a thing of the past. That modern machines would credit the outcome of a spin / hand to a players account even if the card is pulled while the spin / hand is still in progress.
Is there a way to tell on which machines card pulling still makes sense?
I will not go into any details but there are still situations where card pulling is beneficial but not for the reason you are assuming.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 12th, 2016 at 9:28:04 PM
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Quote: RogerKintHaven't heard of any casual vultures facing any serious consequences. In my experience, the guys who camp out for hours behind banks of UX and Spielos are often approached by security and not seen on premises again.
whats a Spielos?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
June 12th, 2016 at 11:23:18 PM
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Quote: RogerKintHaven't heard of any casual vultures facing any serious consequences. In my experience, the guys who camp out for hours behind banks of UX and Spielos are often approached by security and not seen on premises again.
Some guys can vulture quietly --- and some can't. When there's a dispute, the casino will usually side with the "regular player" and against the "cherry picker."
June 12th, 2016 at 11:47:18 PM
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Quote: 100xOddswhats a Spielos?
Spielos is a slot manufacturer like Bally's. Roger is saying people camping out for hours near the Spielos games.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
June 13th, 2016 at 5:44:47 AM
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Quote: darkozSpielos is a slot manufacturer like Bally's. Roger is saying people camping out for hours near the Spielos games.
what games do they make?
and Why are they camping out?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
June 13th, 2016 at 6:01:20 AM
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perhaps they have good pay tables and they sit there waiting for people on the UX to leave or something.Quote: 100xOddswhat games do they make?
and Why are they camping out?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
June 13th, 2016 at 8:46:29 AM
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I like the thread idea, and it makes great sense for your situation. Likewise, I have a teammate and we run plays that are much much more EV than the .25 vulture he see's on the screen and wants to play. On more than one occasion I've had to remind him to let them go, because we have been approached by hosts/etc just from walking in the building (thus they've watched us on camera). I gave him the same argument that we didn't need to give them any reasons and added the argument of value. Is it worth the $5 expected value of that vulture pull to stir the pot in a casino where you're making a lot more than that on other plays?
If I was a casual gambler (not AP) that knew about vulturing I would certainly do it though. At that point unless you're a high roller you're probably not being monitored and you also have relatively little to lose, if anything.
If I was a casual gambler (not AP) that knew about vulturing I would certainly do it though. At that point unless you're a high roller you're probably not being monitored and you also have relatively little to lose, if anything.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 13th, 2016 at 10:42:29 AM
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I think you can pretty much do anything you want in a casino as long as it doesn't deviate that far from your typical losing gambler. Ploppies selectively choose machines and switch to machines on a whim, I don't think that is an issue. When people loiter like weirdos or suddenly sprint to machines like mad men your behavior is no longer typical.
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
June 13th, 2016 at 11:03:01 AM
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So long as the casino currently views you as a typical losing gambler. In Bob's case he's well known by many surveillance teams and thus doesn't have that luxury of anonymity.Quote: DiscreteMaths2I think you can pretty much do anything you want in a casino as long as it doesn't deviate that far from your typical losing gambler...
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 13th, 2016 at 12:04:24 PM
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Quote: RomesSo long as the casino currently views you as a typical losing gambler. In Bob's case he's well known by many surveillance teams and thus doesn't have that luxury of anonymity.
Which is the part I don't completely understand. I know Bob has done things in conjunction with casinos, so it makes sense that those properties will let him play provided he doesn't beat them up too bad. But why would a casino who knows he is a big AP player and is only playing games worth his while let that play continue but then sweat him on some smaller +EV plays (plays that in some cases the house is not even losing money) ? Like he has talked about before how some AP'ers foolishly bite the hand that feeds for some short term +EV and lose sight of the bigger picture where they could have stayed for the longer term which I think his post here builds on. But I am just missing the piece where the casino is cool with him playing a 12 hr session on a good VP game but he plays one hand of UX and suddenly they want him ejected ?
Assume the worst, believe no one, and make your move only when you are certain that you are unbeatable or have, at worst, exceptionally good odds in your favor.
June 13th, 2016 at 12:18:41 PM
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I can't answer for Bob, only speculate. I think as he kind of said earlier it's fuel to the fire. Some places are perhaps okay with him playing, while some shift managers in particular don't like the decision handed down from above and perhaps they're looking for a reason... So something like card pulling, vulturing, and other things he call "taking a shot" would be essentially giving them a reason for interaction, which he wants to avoid. Again, just my opinion.
As mentioned above I've been approached by hosts without playing a game so I know after I swipe in for the day the camera has followed me to tell them where I am. So in that case while you're being watched it might ruin your "ploppy" status to start vulturing/card pulling/etc while on camera.
As mentioned above I've been approached by hosts without playing a game so I know after I swipe in for the day the camera has followed me to tell them where I am. So in that case while you're being watched it might ruin your "ploppy" status to start vulturing/card pulling/etc while on camera.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 13th, 2016 at 12:21:06 PM
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And why I don't use cards in locations where I AP.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 13th, 2016 at 12:49:15 PM
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Simply not possible with some plays at certain levels of play.Quote: IbeatyouracesAnd why I don't use cards in locations where I AP.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
June 13th, 2016 at 12:50:06 PM
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Quote: RomesSimply not possible with some plays at certain levels of play.
Not true. Unless in AC counting.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 13th, 2016 at 4:01:57 PM
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Quote: 100xOddswhat games do they make?
and Why are they camping out?
They make quite a lot of games. Most of them are not beatable, but a much higher percentage of their games are beatable than other manufacturers. In Las Vegas I've seen Cash Eruption with an easy progressive to watch, Egyptian Dream and at least one other have nudging wilds, Wild Mermaids and at least one other have a feature somewhat similar to the Green Stamps machine bonus round.
There is no point to "camp out." Walk by them and see if any thing is playable or not. Usually there won't be. Then move on to whatever else is worthwhile. If someone is playing and it is +EV, then check back in a few minutes. and see if it's free and still a good play
June 13th, 2016 at 4:11:22 PM
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Quote: CanyoneroI was under the impression card pulling was a thing of the past. That modern machines would credit the outcome of a spin / hand to a players account even if the card is pulled while the spin / hand is still in progress.
I understand that to be correct. But remember to consider machines where you would pull it out in between hands. Play Ultimate X until you get a screen full of multipliers. Then take your card out and play. Then put your card back in when there are few or no multipliers. If you do that, you can get tracked as having major losses without really losing that much.
It would work very well with Dotty's system of awarding free-play or to generate better looking profit-loss statements.
June 13th, 2016 at 4:37:38 PM
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I was next to this card puller the other day in a local casino. He was playing some 1.2% losing game and playing ten play quarters pulling the card almost every other flop. I said I know that your getting good mailers from this place and so am I but any chance you can cool it a bit before they throw you out and throw me out as well just because I'm sitting next to you. I mean I don't mind a card pull here and there when I flop big hands or big draws but almost every hand is pushing it these days since most places have caught on :0) !
I can see his argument though... if they don't like it they can change the system or screw! Funny how most players think that the Casino can't throw them out for any reason they like.
I can see his argument though... if they don't like it they can change the system or screw! Funny how most players think that the Casino can't throw them out for any reason they like.
June 13th, 2016 at 5:53:16 PM
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Quote: RomesI can't answer for Bob, only speculate. I think as he kind of said earlier it's fuel to the fire. Some places are perhaps okay with him playing, while some shift managers in particular don't like the decision handed down from above and perhaps they're looking for a reason... So something like card pulling, vulturing, and other things he call "taking a shot" would be essentially giving them a reason for interaction, which he wants to avoid. Again, just my opinion.
As mentioned above I've been approached by hosts without playing a game so I know after I swipe in for the day the camera has followed me to tell them where I am. So in that case while you're being watched it might ruin your "ploppy" status to start vulturing/card pulling/etc while on camera.
I've been told that it doesn't hurt to exit and enter casinos a few times a day. The thought being if you attract attention and they try backtracking you, they'll stop when they first see you enter. They won't suspect you've "entered" several times before.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
June 14th, 2016 at 5:18:09 AM
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I have a feeling Romes is talking about VP/Slots not BJ. As this thread is about VP.Quote: IbeatyouracesNot true. Unless in AC counting.
The EV comes from using the card period.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
June 14th, 2016 at 8:40:31 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfI have a feeling Romes is talking about VP/Slots not BJ. As this thread is about VP.
The EV comes from using the card period.
In that case yes, and I did think about editing my reply. Tables are different. Take the Harrahs Philly bj promo. I would NOT use a card playing it.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 10:40:28 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesIn that case yes, and I did think about editing my reply. Tables are different. Take the Harrahs Philly bj promo. I would NOT use a card playing it.
the harrahs bj promo is by invitation only.
i'm assuming you have to get swiped in w/your rewards card to get a seat?
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
June 14th, 2016 at 10:49:56 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsthe harrahs bj promo is by invitation only.
i'm assuming you have to get swiped in w/your rewards card to get a seat?
It doesn't say that on the website. I linked the promo details in that thread, page one.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 11:20:25 AM
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Wouldn't matter if you used a card/ I'm sure you have to show id on the bonus payoffs and they would log you in
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 11:31:11 AM
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Quote: WizardofnothingWouldn't matter if you used a card/ I'm sure you have to show id on the bonus payoffs and they would log you in
Why would they need that? Pay it and move onto the next hand. Its not some jackpot or anything.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 11:44:17 AM
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I'm not 100 percent sure but even on High hand for 50 dollars in their poker room they take your name
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 11:51:03 AM
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Quote: 100xOddsthe harrahs bj promo is by invitation only.
i'm assuming you have to get swiped in w/your rewards card to get a seat?
The Harrah's Philly BJ promo is open to the public: https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-philly/casino/harrah-s-philly-promotion#.V2BR_zVbQ1o
June 14th, 2016 at 11:53:36 AM
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Can anyone in the world explain wtf expected means?
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 11:53:44 AM
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Quote: WizardofnothingI'm not 100 percent sure but even on High hand for 50 dollars in their poker room they take your name
That's understandable because that isn't paid immediately, correct?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 11:55:47 AM
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The high hand is paid immediately upon the time period being over
They do not take your name until you actually win and then you must show id - get paid immediately or forfeit your prize
They do not take your name until you actually win and then you must show id - get paid immediately or forfeit your prize
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 11:57:56 AM
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Quote: WizardofnothingCan anyone in the world explain wtf expected means?
You should ask in this thread so we don't get off topic here: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/25988-harrahs-bj-cash-bonus-promo/
I didn't understand what that meant either.
June 14th, 2016 at 12:02:58 PM
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Quote: WizardofnothingThe high hand is paid immediately upon the time period being over
They do not take your name until you actually win and then you must show id - get paid immediately or forfeit your prize
Right. But at what time do they do this? When you reveal the hand or at the end of the night? When I dealt charity poker, we did it with the highest hand that was dealt though out the day at closing winning the prize.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 12:03:36 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesWhy would they need that? Pay it and move onto the next hand. Its not some jackpot or anything.
Generally things like this are considered promotional wins, not gambling wins, and they have a "cash value". Companies are supposed to track all non-gambling payouts because if they reach $600 for a person over the course of the calendar year, the company must issue you an IRS 1099 for the amount won.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
June 14th, 2016 at 12:12:13 PM
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Drich is spot on and phrased much better then I did but he is 100 percent accurate
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 12:14:54 PM
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Then how come match plays, free bets, etc., aren't marked "win" or "loss"?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 14th, 2016 at 12:15:58 PM
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That's reinvestment- it's a totally separate animal. If you win match play or free play or promo chips I have 100 percent signed for that
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
June 14th, 2016 at 2:18:29 PM
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Ouch! No doubt I missed something important here. Reaching out to accountant, tax preparer, investments advisors (2) and my wife. Also sent immigration applications to Canada, New Zealand, and Perfectoland. You never heard of Perfectoland? Not surprised, it's an invitation only thing. Some guy named Larry is in charge ;-)Quote: DRichGenerally things like this are considered promotional wins, not gambling wins, and they have a "cash value". Companies are supposed to track all non-gambling payouts because if they reach $600 for a person over the course of the calendar year, the company must issue you an IRS 1099 for the amount won.
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
June 14th, 2016 at 2:22:42 PM
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Quote: gamerfreakThe Harrah's Philly BJ promo is open to the public: https://www.caesars.com/harrahs-philly/casino/harrah-s-philly-promotion#.V2BR_zVbQ1o
wow.. that's going to be a mess.
wonder how they're going to pick their 24players?
I'm glad my local casino's similar offer is invite only.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice).
Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
June 14th, 2016 at 2:31:58 PM
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Quote: TwoFeathersATLOuch! No doubt I missed something important here. Reaching out to accountant, tax preparer, investments advisors (2) and my wife. Also sent immigration applications to Canada, New Zealand, and Perfectoland. You never heard of Perfectoland? Not surprised, it's an invitation only thing. Some guy named Larry is in charge ;-)
Oh, you you mean the late Larry who was assassinated in Perfectoland. The assassin escaped by freight train.
June 14th, 2016 at 5:57:36 PM
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About the Spielo/GTech/IGT machines. Assuming this is based on the way their Must Hit By progressives work...?
That said - recently I saw a family camped out by a Zuma machine for hours and it didn't go in their favor.
That said - recently I saw a family camped out by a Zuma machine for hours and it didn't go in their favor.
July 27th, 2016 at 11:45:42 PM
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I really don't understand why vulturing ultimate x is taboo. Usually only amounts to a few hands and the casino does have a chance to get your money.
Edited
Edited
I am a robot.
July 27th, 2016 at 11:55:10 PM
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Wild mermaid is close to worthless even with decent returns, but can say it can become the worlds biggest scam of a sucker machine when it's super tight. From my experience at Mahoning Valley Race Course, the first time you see zero bonuses on those games, never be tempted again. When the sticky wild on reel 2 becomes prevalent blocking the wild reel from showing, you're totally boned for life until those sucker games are taken out. Kind of cruel removing a very slight advantage and replacing it as the casino's worst machine under any circumstance. Analogous to a carnival trick in my opinion.
I am a robot.
