Video Poker game with 205% return.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm confused. The original hand had 1 diamond, 2 hearts, and 2 spades. So how does that translate to 4 suits? I thought I had grasped your programming pattern, but I guess not.

My mistake, I mis-read the original hand. The corresponding hand in the strategy file is 4c 5c 6d 8d Ah. Thanks for catching that; I edited the above posts.

BTW, I moved all four known pay tables for Joker Poker under the "German rule" to Joker Poker (German rules). I refer to the rule about paying for the draw "German" based on the pictured such game earlier in this thread.

Wow, my head is spinning, are you all drunk?

1. Romes caught it by playing, but I still want to point out that the very first screenshot the Wiz posted clearly states that the draw is a new game and a new game costs one stake.

2. rsactuary was not in a German casino, but a Gambling hall, which is very different. The slot machines there are goverened by limits to stakes, wins and losses over time (I think I posted more detailed info before, let me know if you guys are interested).

3. The machine in question is not video poker in my book, you might call it a class II VP machine at best. Consider what I mentioned above and think about what that means for the "randomness".

4. "I highly suspect that the game does not play by natural probabilities, where each card has an equal chance, but is gaffed somehow in the casino's favor. " Damn right Wiz, again, see above. You might want to remove the whole page from the VP section, cause it is highly misleading.

5. in the future, when finding a 200% paytable, please use the quick test utility i developed below:


6. Everybody, please stop assuming that "what you see is what you get" in online gambling. Vegas rules on simulating a deck af cards or a roulette wheel or whatever apply only in Vegas and nowhere else (as we know, not even when operators or "gambling commissions" claim it applies).

PS: For those interested: There is no class III VP anywhere in Germany. You will find better slotmachines than those in the gambling halls in the government run casinos though.

Sorry to wake up a sleeping thread but I just returned from Germany, in part to look for video poker that follows the "German rules" discussed in this thread. As a reminder, it means the player has to pay for both the deal and draw, but is paid based only on the final hand. The player is allowed to decline the draw and be paid on the deal.

I did indeed find it at two different casinos in Berlin. They call the game "American Poker." What a misnomer!



To make matters more complicated, one machine I saw had a "Mini Bonus" that paid on a pair of queens on the deal.

To get to the bottom line, I show these games have a player advantage of about 40% based on the initial bet, if you assume they play fairly. This is a big if. Frankly, I don't trust them. Then again, with such an awful title of the game, maybe they did throw out a game with a juicy player advantage. Stranger things have happened.

You can read my analysis in my page on American Poker. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.

If anybody is interested in hearing more about my trip, please visit my Germany thread at DT.

Quote: Wizard

To get to the bottom line, I show these games have a player advantage of about 40% based on the initial bet, if you assume they play fairly. This is a big if. Frankly, I don't trust them. Then again, with such an awful title of the game, maybe they did throw out a game with a juicy player advantage. Stranger things have happened.

AARGH!

So nobody reads my posts, ever.

It is NOT random. It is NOT claiming to be. NO NEED to trust it, because it is JUST A SLOT MACHINE.
(Most justified use of caps ever.)

But seriously, Wizard. I would advise you again, as I did before (see two posts above), to remove your "analysis" from your site. It is misleading and might make an unwitting tourist to Germany drop money into that machine thinking they might have an AP opportunity.

If anybody has some Euros to spare, try this: Play the worst Video Poker you can, trying to lose as much as possible. It will work in the beginning, but then you will get luckier and luckier and eventually it will be impossible for you to lose. Why? Because by law, that machine must not hold more than €33 per hour.

Quote: Canyonero

AARGH!

So nobody reads my posts, ever.

It is NOT random. It is NOT claiming to be. NO NEED to trust it, because it is JUST A SLOT MACHINE.
(Most justified use of caps ever.)

Sorry, I must admit I hadn't read your post yet when I wrote that page.

May I ask, how do you know the games are not random? I'd love to be able to quote a law on the books.

Quote: Canyonero

PS: For those interested: There is no class III VP anywhere in Germany.

Again, how do you know?

It is all part of the German "Spielverordnung", the law governing any gambling machines in Germany.

http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/spielv/BJNR001530962.html#BJNR001530962BJNG000603377

The way it is regulated really leaves no room for "randomness and independence". Good thing I just re-read some of it: I just found out that the max hold was reduced to €20/h last year.

Some other interesting tidbits:

Max loss per hour: € 60
Max win per hour €400
Machine must take a break of 5 minutes every 60 minutes
Coin-op is mandatory, no Tito

The American Poker II (by Novomatic) is governed by that.

Das "Kleine Spiel" at the "Spielbanken", the government-run casinos with table games, is exempt from those rules. These actual casinos (as opposed to "gambling halls") are governed by state law (while the Spielverordnung is federal), so the rules differ from state to state an are less clear cut.


Regarding the absence of class III VP in Germany: This from personal observation only. I have been to maybe one third of the German casinos (there are only 50) and have found nothing of that sort. I cannot rule out that a state I haven't been to might put up American made VP machines (no German manufacturer makes class III VP) but I would lay 10 to 1 against (why would they?). The casinos are dominated by the same shitty Novomatic machines, but with significantly higher loss limits (up to €50.000).

Well, thank you for the very detailed reply. This makes me look somewhat the fool for spending days writing a program to analyze American Poker assuming each card has the same probability.

Do you happen to know how the Novomatic game actually does work?

Funny how video poker is so popular in the US but has not gained any traction in any other country that I'm aware of. Perhaps Canada, but what are you going to do when you sleep next to a giant?

Quote: Wizard

Funny how video poker is so popular in the US but has not gained any traction in any other country that I'm aware of. Perhaps Canada, but what are you going to do when you sleep next to a giant?

“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” ― W.C. Fields

Quote: Wizard

Well, thank you for the very detailed reply. This makes me look somewhat the fool for spending days writing a program to analyze American Poker assuming each card has the same probability.

Do you happen to know how the Novomatic game actually does work?

Funny how video poker is so popular in the US but has not gained any traction in any other country that I'm aware of. Perhaps Canada, but what are you going to do when you sleep next to a giant?

I have no insider information whatsoever as to the workings of these machines. But there are certain things that can be extrapolated from the regulations:

The RNG probabilitites must change according to the previous outcomes: The more you win, the less likely you are to win any more, same for losses.

In extreme cases this means:
If a total loss of €60 has occured within, for example, 40 minutes of play, you cannot lose for the next 15 minutes before the break.
Opposite goes for a €400 win within less than an hour - it is impossible to win any more.

So these machines actually can be "hot" and "cold" and can be vultured.

If you are due for a win, the machine will do all it can to make it happen. E.g. you are dealt trips, throw all five cards away and (often, not always!) miraculously draw a full house. I have personally observed this with several different types of hands.

Each individual game is taxed at 19%. Your bet (which constitutes a purchase) is taxed, not the money you take out! That means you already lose 19% the moment you press that button.

Putting all of the regulations together, the return of these machines must be somewhere between 40% and 60%.

Quote: Canyonero

If you are due for a win, the machine will do all it can to make it happen. E.g. you are dealt trips, throw all five cards away and (often, not always!) miraculously draw a full house. I have personally observed this with several different types of hands.

I was just going to make that statement. If it's not random and it has to pay out or not lose more than a certain amount, there would be times where you could be dealt a straight (or some other winner) and it wouldn't matter if you discarded all the cards, you'd win on the draw no matter what.

That is not a game I'd ever want to play.


ZCore13

I can't read German, but slot machines are officially called "Amusement machines with prizes"

Quote: Wizard

Funny how video poker is so popular in the US but has not gained any traction in any other country that I'm aware of. Perhaps Canada, but what are you going to do when you sleep next to a giant?

Poker is traditionally an American game, though. Maybe if you did some sort of paytable-based Video Skat or Video Tarot game you could attract European players. (Who's up for a bit of game design?)

Quote: Zcore13

I was just going to make that statement. If it's not random and it has to pay out or not lose more than a certain amount, there would be times where you could be dealt a straight (or some other winner) and it wouldn't matter if you discarded all the cards, you'd win on the draw no matter what.

That is not a game I'd ever want to play.


ZCore13

from the description I just read this is a game you should want to play if you wanted an advantage. It sounds very interesting in the fact that you could gain an advantage dependent on how the last person faired.

Canyonero, if you're ever in Vegas, I owe you a beer, preferably at the Hofbrau Haus. I greatly appreciate your contribution to this thread.

For anyone interested, I made this video of me playing one of these games in a small slots-only casino.



The reason you hear so much clanking is I previously clicked the "cash out" button, but didn't know what it was because it was in German, so it was spitting out coins slowly and loudly into the hopper. I had to put in more money to keep playing.

Quote:

Putting all of the regulations together, the return of these machines must be somewhere between 40% and 60%.

My experience playing these games for a total of about half an hour is that they are quite tight, but not that bad. I would have roughly put the return at 75% based on my small sampling. I never got anything above a full house.

Regarding video poker outside the states, I'm sure no casino is eager for players to fall in love with them, as they do here. Reeled slots are much more profitable per machine.

Quote: Wizard

Canyonero, if you're ever in Vegas, I owe you a beer, preferably at the Hofbrau Haus. I greatly appreciate your contribution to this thread.

I will gladly take you up on that offer! And I have even more to add:

I found one of those machines in a casino (that is exempt from loss and win limits) today to find out if there was any indication that the machines worked differently in there. I did find an American Poker II *deluxe*, a little different (in looks only I assume) from the one the Wizard played

My opinion is: It is the same garbage. The machine looked and felt exactly the same and it is hard for me to imagine they would change the inner workings for the casino environment. (Except for a little higher RTP maybe.) Also, look at the little sentence in the light blue area.




It reads: "The probabilites of the cards are adjusted in favor of higher winnings and the second deal requires an additional bet."

What that is supposed to mean, though, is anyone's guess. But I am sure it does not mean "higher winnings". On another page it said that the probability of the Joker appearing was "reduced".

I played some other machines today as well (for research :)), icncluding another "poker" machine from a different manufacturer that followed the same rules. Man, German machines are no fun at all.

Thanks for the additional research and translating that fine print. I also found and played American Poker at a conventional casino, the Spielbank at Potsdamer Platz. Same &#*@ as at the rinky-dink slot parlor near the Berlin zoo.

As our resident expert on Germany, I'd welcome your comments on some non-gambling spots I visited in Germany as described at DT.

Originally played Magic Poker (Wazdan) and the dealt jokers rate seemed a bit low, so with American Poker (also Wazdan) being faster to play I decided to count the joker's being dealt for it,

results are below

--------------------------------
Game: American Poker (American Gold Poker)
No. of Joker's in deck: 1
Joker's dealt on 1st five card draw (initial hand) : 27
Initial hands played: 900

--------------------------------
Update (about 80 minutes later)

(a) Is 900 initial hands a big enough sample size to determine if the joker's are 'fairly shuffled' ?

(b) What would the expected probability of hitting a Joker be (from a single game), if dealt from a 'fairly shuffled deck' ?

(c) Based on the answer to (b), what is the probability of 'hitting 27 (or fewer) joker's out of 900 ?

(d) If the answer to question (a) is 'yes', within how many standard deviations would the 27 out 900 result be, if:

(d) (i) the chance of hitting a joker on the initial deal was 40% of the answer derived from question (b) ?

(d) (ii) the chance of hitting a joker on the initial deal was 1/3 of the answer derived from question (b) ?

(d) (iii) the chance of hitting a joker on the initial deal was 2/7 of the answer derived from question (b) ?

(e) If the other 52 cards were 'shuffled fairly'. what would the chance of hitting a joker on the initial deal be to obtain an RTP of "...over 95%^^^..." (as claimed by the casino's website) ?

^^^: even though the website says "...over 95%...", work it out for a theoretical RTP of 95%, if that makes it easier

all these questions are too hard for me to work out the answer to, so thanks for your time in advance
-------------------------------

Interesting side note: I haven't tested Wazdan's American Poker for 'weird deals' yet', but their Magic Poker game definitely shuffles discarded cards back into the deck for the 2nd and 3rd draws (so that will reduce the RTP as well), see example below:

example: received 10-D (ten of diamonds), J-H, Q-H, K-H and 10-H on the first deal, kept the 4 to a royal flush and discarded 10 of diamonds, then on the second draw received the 10 Diamonds

Standard video poker 'burns' the discarded cards for the 2nd draw of the hand, right?


PS just realized the previous reply to this post was in 2015, sorry for starting it up again, : )