Upper Hand Poker by Spielo

Hello Wizard of Vegas forum peoples. This is my inaugural post so please be kind. I looked this game up on this forum to see if it had been discussed before. I was disappointed to find no threads so here's my question/topic. I was in Empire City/Yonkers Racino just north of Bronx, NY and spotted this game (pictured below) called Upper Hand Poker. This is a 9/6 Jacks or Better poker game that has two distinctive features that I think should be considered for discussion.

The first feature is the "Upper Hand". Once you draw to your bottom hand, just like any other Jacks or Better video poker game, an additional 5 card stud hand is dealt above. The highest hand then wins. I figure that even with the awful Royal Straight Flush payout (for a quarter), this "feature" would put the racino at a disadvantage. I have no clue how to figure that out, though I may not need to because of feature number 2.

The second feature is "Auto Hold". I had not seen this before. After you're dealt your hand, the machine then suggests which cards to hold. I tried it and it appears to hold the correct cards for you, leaving you pretty much left to hit the deal button over and over until you get bored or run out of money. Does anyone have any insight into the "Auto Hold" method? Does it differ from "optimal" strategy?

I'm going back to Yonkers on Saturday evening 6/12/10 and would like some forum confidence that I'm getting the best bang for my racino buck. I may still lose but at least I'll know something I didn't know as I now press the post button.





If I can, I'll get a snapshot of the help screens and update this thread.

What does "pie" mean in the voting?

right off the bat, this game is slightly in your favor (100.18%). if you dont have to wager any additional coins, being able to freeroll for a better hand puts this game slightly more in your favor. putting in the paytables times the probability of getting jacks or better on a stud hand, its worth about .33%. of course you have to beat the previous hand so its not gonna be worth anywhere near that much. so the payback for this game is somewhere between 100.18% and 100.51% with it being much closer to the 100.18% value.

I think the Upper Hand feature's benefit would depend upon this being a Class III machine.

If it's Class II, then it's probably worthless.


I.E. Having the Upper Hand feature could simply be a lazy way to design it so that even if you partially throw away a monster hand, you'll get the intended hand - in a different suit.

But with the Auto Hold feature, is that really a problem?

Quote: Robmorrow

What does "pie" mean in the voting?

Ditto!

This reeks of a class II machine, i.e., its not real video poker, its a pull tab (results are predetermined). Not to mention the overly generous 9/6+ paytable which you would never, ever see in a legit racino. The upper hand is a clever way of making sure you get paid the predetermined win no matter what cards you discard.

A good way to test this is to discard a winning hand (3 of a kind or better) and see if it appears on the upper hand. If it does, then you've got a pull-tab on your hands and not a video poker machine.

Beware!

There are several gimmick VP machines in Vegas, too. Like multi-strike, super-times pay, pick a pair, ace invaders, dream card and others. I wouldn't be surprised to see this upper hand in Vegas someday.

But you don't see many gimmick VP amchines in the casinos. I guess VP players are serious gamblers who don't fall for gimmicks. Slot players love gimmicks (the more gimmicky a slot, the more people play it), but probably lack the desire to play seriously. Maybe this game would draw slot jockeys, since it even decides for the player. Just pushing the "deal/draw" button sounds a lot like just pushing the "spin" button.

None of the New York Racinos have slot machines. They are all video lottery terminals with a 17% house edge. So it's the equivalent of a pull tab game


Rich P

How can I tell (without tossing in a winning hand) if the machine is Class II or Class III and is there a Class I and what is that?

Quote: Robmorrow & DJTeddyBear

What does "pie" mean in the voting?

Everyone loves pie! It's sort of a catch-all/None of the Above/I hate polls but love pie, I put it at the bottom of all polls.

Quote: s2dbaker

Everyone loves pie! It's sort of a catch-all/None of the Above/I hate polls but love pie, I put it at the bottom of all polls.

Everyone?

by law, i think you are now required to post a poll on how many people love pie.

personally i love pie and have always preferred pie over cake.

Quote: s2dbaker

How can I tell (without tossing in a winning hand) if the machine is Class II or Class III and is there a Class I and what is that?

You could call or email the casino and ask. If there's something like a gaming comision in the state, you can ask them, too.

Quote: s2dbaker

...and is there a Class I and what is that?

Class I are the old fashined machines that had REAL reels with REAL random mechanical stops. It was AFTER the reels stoped that the machine then figured out if you won or not. You will generally only see Class I machines in museums and display cases. I.E. No casino uses them anymore.

Class II and Class III have random number generators (RNG) and computer controlled stops on the reels. I.E. The computer first decides what to display, then starts the reels spinning, and stops at the predetermined points to display the outcome.

In Class II, the RNG is playing a bingo game, and interprets the outcome of the bingo game to the style of machine you're playing.

In Class III reel machines, the RNG randomly selects the reel stop points based upon a virtual reel system. I.E. There might be 22 symbols on the reel, but up to 256 reel map points. In this manner, the symbols do not appear with equal distribution, and the 'near miss' is designed to appear often.

In Class III card games, the RND does a true shuffle and deals as if they really were cards.
In Class III dice games, the RND does a true random selection as if it really was a roll of the dice.
In Class III roulette games, the RND does a true random selection as if it really was a spin of the wheel.

THEREFORE, only Class III card, dice or roulette games, can the paytable be compared to the actual game odds to determine the house edge on the machine.

Quote: s2dbaker

Everyone loves pie! It's sort of a catch-all/None of the Above/I hate polls but love pie, I put it at the bottom of all polls.

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

FYI: I hate pie, except fur pie.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

That's the dumbest thing I ever heard.

I disagree. Many nerds who don't like actual pie like the idea of using pie or saying pie because it sounds like pi. Pie makes an excellent choice.

And if you don't agree, I hope as a consolation prize I take the top spot for dumbest thing you've ever heard.

What if I prefer Pi, to Pie? Shouldn't there then be an additional poll option for Pi?

Quote: konceptum

What if I prefer Pi, to Pie? Shouldn't there then be an additional poll option for Pi?

Since we seem to spend a lot of effort talking about statistics, then I think Pi would be tangentially appropriate, especially since we talk about wheels a lot, which are round like a pie, the area of which is Pi*r^2*width. I will make the adjustment, but for this forum only.

Quote: s2dbaker

Since we seem to spend a lot of effort talking about statistics, then I think Pi would be tangentially appropriate, especially since we talk about wheels a lot, which are round like a pie, the area of which is Pi*r^2*width. I will make the adjustment, but for this forum only.

Um... Shouldn't that be Pi*r^2 ? Or is that another inside joke that I'm not getting?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Um... Shouldn't that be Pi*r^2 ? Or is that another inside joke that I'm not getting?

Alas, we live in a four dimensional universe but I wasn't going to add time to the formula, that's for another forum entirely.

We seem to have gotten off topic. Is there a Jack's Or Better probability chart for a 5 card stud hand? I think the probabilities would be additive in the case of Upper Hand Poker (assuming that it's a Class III machine). I'm going to play it tonight and report my findings.

I just left the casino, I have pictures in my cell phone but it is as suspected, Upper Hand Poker is a Class II machine. I was throwing away winning hands all night long only for it to re-appear in the upper hand. Feh!! Why would they make a machine that simulates a real poker game so closely only to totally not be fair?

This game sUxXx0rZ, thread closed!

Quote: s2dbaker

Why would they make a machine that simulates a real poker game so closely only to totally not be fair?

To suck in the suckers that don't know better.

I would doubt that ANY casino would knowingly have both Class II and Class III machines, so it's a safe bet that all of Yonkers is Class II. My advice is to just avoid the entire casino.

They do have what look to be real Jacks or Better video poker machines, complete with lousy 8/4 odds. I think it's unfair to have a Class II game on the floor with Class III game that has virtually the same look and feel. I have written off Yonkers as a complete waste of time. To add insult to insulting injury, I even lost $20 on the ponies.