What else can I vulture?

Headed to Vegas Thursday. Staying on the Strip. Excited to vulture Ultimate X as I walk the strip. What else can I vulture? Slots/VP. Thanks!

people

Quote: pokerface

people

Sounds too gruesome. But thanks for the insight.

Quote: FinsRule

Sounds too gruesome. But thanks for the insight.

People whom aren't broke, but you can sense will be broke soon.

Quote: FinsRule

Headed to Vegas Thursday. Staying on the Strip. Excited to vulture Ultimate X as I walk the strip. What else can I vulture? Slots/VP. Thanks!

I am pretty sure people who live in Vegas are not going to openly write where you can vulture.

Quote: GWAE

I am pretty sure people who live in Vegas are not going to openly write where you can vulture.

Locals don't bother with the strip. Do they?

Leftovers on the plates at the buffets

Quote: FinsRule

Locals don't bother with the strip. Do they?

I am pretty sure locals will go where ever they know there is a play and if there is a play they sure as hell ain't putting it on here.

Quote: Johnzimbo

Leftovers on the plates at the buffets

LOL
You have to pay to get into the buffet. Once you are inside, you take the leftover instead of the fresh food. That sounds like a -EV game.

Quote: pokerface

LOL
You have to pay to get into the buffet. Once you are inside, you take the leftover instead of the fresh food. That sounds like a -EV game.

You could walk in without people saying anything. I always said that if I ever become homeless I will walk into places like this and grab a plate. I am pretty sure I could down a plate and exit before anyone ever knew. If you get caught at least you will get a place to sleep that night and another meal.

I guess I'll never understand the world It's like the time if kind an error were you could download freeplay and it didn't debit your avaialble balance - lasted three months till someone else found it and them told their friend - I'm amazed at this post that people would openly ruin everything and the thought that op would solicit it in here as if it's a free ATM and nobody cares to keep it a secret

Quote: GWAE

I am pretty sure locals will go where ever they know there is a play and if there is a play they sure as hell ain't putting it on here.

I don't think it's worth a locals time to drive to the strip to vulture ultimate x. No way it's worth gas/time.

I don't drive to Harrahs Joliet everyday to do the same thing....

Quote: strictlyAP

I guess I'll never understand the world It's like the time if kind an error were you could download freeplay and it didn't debit your avaialble balance - lasted three months till someone else found it and them told their friend - I'm amazed at this post that people would openly ruin everything and the thought that op would solicit it in here as if it's a free ATM and nobody cares to keep it a secret

Lol. Yes, I started it. It's not like there's three threads dedicated to this already, lol.

Quote: FinsRule

I don't think it's worth a locals time to drive to the strip to vulture ultimate x. No way it's worth gas/time.

I don't drive to Harrahs Joliet everyday to do the same thing....

but you asked, what else besides X is there to vulture.

Quote: strictlyAP

I guess I'll never understand the world It's like the time if kind an error were you could download freeplay and it didn't debit your avaialble balance - lasted three months till someone else found it and them told their friend - I'm amazed at this post that people would openly ruin everything and the thought that op would solicit it in here as if it's a free ATM and nobody cares to keep it a secret

to be fair though. Most people on here, including myself, don't realize that we have a free ATM until it is talked about or pointed out.

Fine, from now on, no one should do any calculations or otherwise help anyone. Actually, let's just shut the whole forum now this second.

Because if I post that the Aria buffet was a good value, then more people will go, and the price will go up.

Quote: FinsRule

I don't think it's worth a locals time to drive to the strip to vulture ultimate x. No way it's worth gas/time.

I don't drive to Harrahs Joliet everyday to do the same thing....

Going to the Strip would give many, many times more machines to look over. The other alternative would be to pick a locals casino and try it there. But, that means fewer machines and also smarter other users.

In addition to Ultimate X, you could/should also keep an eye out for must-hit slots and collector slots. That's true for any casino.

Ultimate X vulturing blows on the Strip, and perhaps even all of Vegas. I'd never go to a casino just to do that out there after my experiences, probably less than $50 in EV over five days of checking them everywhere I could. I expect to get that kind of EV at the place I normally check them in my area in 1.5 trips.

Good must-hits are few and far between, so don't fall into the trap of thinking something is good when it's not. If you want to be really safe, figure out the Meter move, determine the coin-in until it absolutely must-hit, multiply by .25 and don't play if the must-hit by amount is less than the result.

Example:

Progressive Meter: $491.25

Must Hit By: $500

Meter Move: $0.01 for every $4.00 coin-in.

Meter Cycles: 50000 - 49125 = 875

Necessary Coin: 875 * 4 = 3500

Possible Base Loss: 3500 * .25 = $875

Decision: Don't Play.

You can replace my assumed 75% with whatever you want to assume, but the way I formulate it works the same. For example, if you want to assume you get 80% back on the Base Pays, then you lose $700 and still wouldn't play.

That's how I do it, anyway, best thing to do is to watch a bunch of Base Spins from behind and figure out what the percentage base return is. It's not hard, but time-consuming, pick a machine and pre-determine a number of spins (say 1,000) you want to see...unless the person stops playing before that. Pay attention to what they had when you started watching and how much goes in, and the amount bet, then at the end of 1000 spins, you see how much they got back.

5,000 is a fairly reasonable starting sample for Base Pays, should get you within 3-4% of accurate.

Thanks. I figure a seat isn't just gonna open up on a machine with a must hit of 500 at 498.50, but I guess you never know...

Quote: FinsRule

Thanks. I figure a seat isn't just gonna open up on a machine with a must hit of 500 at 498.50, but I guess you never know...

Asians exist so it'll never happen.

Quote: FinsRule

Thanks. I figure a seat isn't just gonna open up on a machine with a must hit of 500 at 498.50, but I guess you never know...

Your best hope is to wait for someone to tap out and just happen to be there, or otherwise it's just a, "Right place, right time," thing no matter what you do. Positive situations on these are few and far between.

Quote: Mission146

Your best hope is to wait for someone to tap out and just happen to be there, or otherwise it's just a, "Right place, right time," thing no matter what you do. Positive situations on these are few and far between.

It takes more than this. I've seen people call friends to come down with cash in close spots.

deleted

Quote: Lemieux66

Asians exist so it'll never happen.

We just talked about must hit bys at our last meeting.

Also I live fairly close to the strip, so what makes you think locals don't go there?

Quote: Lemieux66

It takes more than this. I've seen people call friends to come down with cash in close spots.

That sometimes happens, of course. My overall point is that it's just not a play one will see go positive very often. It's just good to know about it because you don't want to miss it when it does.

I've had some good Ult X hits on the Strip. OTOH, I visited a casino on the west side of town that has more Ult X machines than I've seen in any other casino and found nothing. It's all about being in the right place at the right time - shortly after a dope leaves and before another vulture finds it.

Quote: GWAE

but you asked, what else besides X is there to vulture.

Do they have Red Hot Jackpots on the strip?

Quote: mickeycrimm

Do they have Red Hot Jackpots on the strip?

LOL! I guess no one wants to answer. Fin, RHJ is a wongable game. To get a look at it go to youtube. The machines are usually linked. The youtube vidio has the nickel version. The botton meter starts at $25 and runs at 5%. My playable number is $45. When you catch 3 red hot jackpot symbols in the window you are awarded at least the bottom meter and 8 free games. Catch 8 or more RHJ symbols in the free games and you are also awarded the next meter up.

There are some tricks to this game when u catch the 3 RHJ symbols. You have to hit the button to activate the free games. If the other players are short coining the meter will continue to go up but they don't qualify. U can sit there watching the money go up before hitting the button.

Is there a must-hit amount?

Quote: FinsRule

Is there a must-hit amount?

No.

I guess I'll throw in a few more, though I've already mentioned them here:

1.) Rock Around the Clock- There are different versions of this game, but the one I play is set up such that when the clock gets to 12:00 it will take you to a screen and either select the Rockin' and Reelin' Feature or the Jukebox Jackpot Feature. The Rockin' and Reelin' feature is one by which small prize amounts run across the top and bottom of the screen horizontally, and then an arrow spins around and around and you land on prizes. This happens until you land on 'COLLECT' or 'JUKEBOX JACKPOT,' where the latter of the two takes you to the Jukebox Jackpot feature, but sometimes you go to that to begin with.

The Jukebox Jackpot always awards one of the four Progressives, the second to lowest one (Base $20) happens as frequently as the lowest one (Base $5), in my experience, with the top two being pretty rare.

Anyway, you know Bonus Games will hit when the clock gets to 12:00, my play point is 8:00, or better. I saw a few of these machines Downtown, but do not specifically recall seeing them on the Strip, although, I was not really in any one casino other than Rio or Gold Coast for very long on the Strip.

You also get random accelerators where the weird girl with a clock-head says, "Look up," and then jumps the time. This usually happens when you get around the 10:00 mark, but sometimes earlier, and it will just take you directly to Bonus Time, usually.

Finally, you should always bet the minimum on these because $0.25 is what goes to the Bonus Time Progressive no matter how much you are betting otherwise. Thus, everything over what you absolutely must bet ($0.50) has a negative expectation.

The Base Game also absolutely sucks. You'll be lucky to make it to Bonus Time ahead. The hit rate is very low, except for Mixed Bars, which only pays $0.10, anyway.

This play is not worth much, I want to say that, based on 8:00, maybe $10.

Either people don't really leave these behind in Vegas or there are others vulturing it, because I haven't seen any at an advantage Downtown.

2.) Money Works/Venice Nights

These are just Bally games with Stacked Wilds such that every Wild drops down one and a new Wild replaces it. For example, this is five reels and three stops per reel, so if you had a Wild on the top stop on Reel 2, then you will automatically have a Wild top/middle on the next spin, then Top/Middle/Bottom, then Middle/Bottom, then only Bottom.

It's pretty evident why this should be vulturable. I would suggest that any Free Wilds are good, except the Mission146 jury is still out on Fifth Reel Only Wilds. I don't think they help much.

What's cool about this game is that, while you are vulturing Wilds on one reel, you may start collecting Wilds on another reel, depending on where they end up. On the best play I've ever had (in percentage terms, not cash, because it was on the $.60 level) I had three reels (2, 3, 4) with Wilds going at once, so a few Lines were a guaranteed four-of-a-kind!!!

Also, there are different reel assignments with each number of credits you can bet, and five different credit levels (30, 60, 90, 150, 300) to look at. So, just because you don't see any Wilds doesn't mean there aren't any on the other credit levels, there often are. You have to put in money to switch credit levels, but you don't have to bet, just make sure not to accidentally tap the button for that credit level twice, or it will play it.

Other Plays

The bulk of my other plays are non must-hit Progressives like Quick Hits Platinum, or other games where the Bonus Game automatically wins one of the Progressives (but still not must-hit) and I have clocked a large set of spins to estimate the return without the Progressive and use the bottom Progressive as a guideline for +EV (in conjunction with estimated probability of Bonus Games) to determine an advantage point. With the latter, given that I've not clocked any specific machine out there for something like this, I wouldn't recommend any of those plays, all kinds of things could be different on what otherwise appears to be the same machine.

Quote: mickeycrimm

LOL! I guess no one wants to answer. Fin, RHJ is a wongable game. To get a look at it go to youtube. The machines are usually linked. The youtube vidio has the nickel version. The botton meter starts at $25 and runs at 5%. My playable number is $45. When you catch 3 red hot jackpot symbols in the window you are awarded at least the bottom meter and 8 free games. Catch 8 or more RHJ symbols in the free games and you are also awarded the next meter up.

There are some tricks to this game when u catch the 3 RHJ symbols. You have to hit the button to activate the free games. If the other players are short coining the meter will continue to go up but they don't qualify. U can sit there watching the money go up before hitting the button.

I rarely look for sniping plays anymore. I think the last one I was really excited about was Indiana Jones. Is this linked? sounds interesting, Is it worth doing?

Quote: AxelWolf

I rarely look for sniping plays anymore. I think the last one I was really excited about was Indiana Jones. Is this linked? sounds interesting, Is it worth doing?

My buddy Al taught me the game. He says he made a bunch if money in florida playing the nickel version which carries a $5 bet to qualify for the meters. He also said when the bottom meter is 180% of reset its about 20%advantage. Yes they are linked. We found the game in Deadwood but couldn't exploit itbecause 3 of the four machines were shutdown the whole timr we were there. I suspected it was because of vulturing.

Quote: mickeycrimm

My buddy Al taught me the game. He says he made a bunch if money in florida playing the nickel version which carries a $5 bet to qualify for the meters. He also said when the bottom meter is 180% of reset its about 20%advantage. Yes they are linked. We found the game in Deadwood but couldn't exploit itbecause 3 of the four machines were shutdown the whole timr we were there. I suspected it was because of vulturing.

Hey Mickey,

Thanks for mentioning this. I don't remember seeing them anywhere on the strip that I've been, but I'll look for them specifically the next time I'm there.

Can I ask how your friend knows that 180% of reset gives you a 20% advantage? Doe he have access to PAR sheets or something?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Hey Mickey,

Thanks for mentioning this. I don't remember seeing them anywhere on the strip that I've been, but I'll look for them specifically the next time I'm there.

Can I ask how your friend knows that 180% of reset gives you a 20% advantage? Doe he have access to PAR sheets or something?

Al is friends with one of the top mathemsticians at IGT. Several years ago Al showed him the ropes of AP'ing video poker in Reno and the guy obviously, turned out to be an outstanding AP. He's always willing to answer Al's questions about certain games. BTW Al is a fictitious name. He prefers to remain anonymous.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Al is friends with one of the top mathemsticians at IGT. Several years ago Al showed him the ropes of AP'ing video poker in Reno and the guy obviously, turned out to be an outstanding AP. He's always willing to answer Al's questions about certain games. BTW Al is a fictitious name. He prefers to remain anonymous.

Probably a good choice :) Thanks!

Do you know the break-even point? A 20% edge is nice, of course, but I'm usually willing to play with much, much slimmer edges.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Probably a good choice :) Thanks! Do you know the break-even point? A 20% edge is nice, of course, but I'm usually willing to play with much, much slimmer edges.

Axiom, I have limited experience with the game, so don't have any hard stats. I don't want to call Al about it because he might get pissed at me for putting it up on WoV. I think his estimate is rough anyway, and meant to cover his ass when he encounters low end payback machines. But it appears to me that the game is designed for the bottom meter to be hit quite frequently....and it represents a huge chunk of the payback. And the 5% meter is huge. With your background I don't think you will have any problem zeroing in on the game.

BTW, I just got home. I did good but I worked my ass off for it. Time for some R & R. I have a date with a jug of Black Velvet. I'll see you guys tomorrow....hangover and all.

PS I don't have to post from my android now. Yipeeeee!!!!

Quote: mickeycrimm

Axiom, I have limited experience with the game, so don't have any hard stats. I don't want to call Al about it because he might get pissed at me for putting it up on WoV. I think his estimate is rough anyway, and meant to cover his ass when he encounters low end payback machines. But it appears to me that the game is designed for the bottom meter to be hit quite frequently....and it represents a huge chunk of the payback. And the 5% meter is huge. With your background I don't think you will have any problem zeroing in on the game.

BTW, I just got home. I did good but I worked my ass off for it. Time for some R & R. I have a date with a jug of Black Velvet. I'll see you guys tomorrow....hangover and all.

Congrats on the successful trip.

I actually still haven't seen the game. I will look for it at my local casino and in Vegas. With that massive board of progressives it should be easy to spot, if it's there. I feel that that 5-reel layout with those 7s and the bonus symbols that light up looks familiar, but I can't remember ever seeing that big board of progressives, so I'm not sure if I'll find it or not.

A 5% meter is huge, but I'm sure that that's configurable, as is the main game payout.

Unfortunately, at some casinos, for games with multiple progressives, they have stopped feeding a lot of the lower ones (leaving them locked at their bases) and only put money into the top progressives. Greedy bastards.

Does 5% meter mean when you bet $2 the bottom meter goes up $.10? Or $.10 goes to all the meters? We have RHJ at our casino in $.02 denom and I wouldn't mind checking it out.

Quote: BTLWI

Does 5% meter mean when you bet $2 the bottom meter goes up $.10? Or $.10 goes to all the meters? We have RHJ at our casino in $.02 denom and I wouldn't mind checking it out.

The total percentage to the amount you coin in on all the meters.

Example If you have a .25 RF progressive and you play $10 coin in and the meter goes up 10 cents that's a 1% meter.

You can have a multi way progressive and each meter could have a different percentage being added to each one. You may not get and exact figure with only a few hands. Its best to see exactly how much coin in moves each meter a few times, it could go up 1 cents one time and 2 cents the 2nd time. Or just write down all the numbers before you play and play a decent amount of coin in, then write down all the numbers again.

I've vultured some of those "Build a wheel" VP games at PH before.

Quote: mickeycrimm

Axiom, I have limited experience with the game, so don't have any hard stats. I don't want to call Al about it because he might get pissed at me for putting it up on WoV. I think his estimate is rough anyway, and meant to cover his ass when he encounters low end payback machines. But it appears to me that the game is designed for the bottom meter to be hit quite frequently....and it represents a huge chunk of the payback. And the 5% meter is huge. With your background I don't think you will have any problem zeroing in on the game.

BTW, I just got home. I did good but I worked my ass off for it. Time for some R & R. I have a date with a jug of Black Velvet. I'll see you guys tomorrow....hangover and all.

PS I don't have to post from my android now. Yipeeeee!!!!

Hey Mickey. I did find this game at my local casino. It was only the 2c denom ($2 per spin) but it was the same game.

I was there pretty late at night and there was only one other person on the bank of 8 machines, but, wow, that 5% meter sure does make the progressives fly. If everyone is short-coining it would definitely be a gold mine. With everyone max-betting I suspect that it would get hit way too often... plus, it doesn't reset the meter until the person is done with their bonus round, so, if someone on the other side of the bank (where you can't see) was in the bonus round, you wouldn't even know that you were playing for the smaller amount (since they willl finish their bonus spins before you do).

It's definitely worth keeping an eye on, though. I'll take a look the next time that I'm there -- this casino has a lot of low-rollers and short-coiners so it might be a good play. I do pretty well on the quick hits machines for the same reason. In QH, I have been at a bank where I was the only one max-betting and the bottom progressive was at 4x its reset value.

Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing this info. I never would have given this game a second look otherwise.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Hey Mickey. I did find this game at my local casino. It was only the 2c denom ($2 per spin) but it was the same game.

I was there pretty late at night and there was only one other person on the bank of 8 machines, but, wow, that 5% meter sure does make the progressives fly. If everyone is short-coining it would definitely be a gold mine. With everyone max-betting I suspect that it would get hit way too often... plus, it doesn't reset the meter until the person is done with their bonus round, so, if someone on the other side of the bank (where you can't see) was in the bonus round, you wouldn't even know that you were playing for the smaller amount (since they willl finish their bonus spins before you do).

It's definitely worth keeping an eye on, though. I'll take a look the next time that I'm there -- this casino has a lot of low-rollers and short-coiners so it might be a good play. I do pretty well on the quick hits machines for the same reason. In QH, I have been at a bank where I was the only one max-betting and the bottom progressive was at 4x its reset value.

Anyway, thanks a lot for sharing this info. I never would have given this game a second look otherwise.

I can see where the game could be a problem with several people max betting. I would raise my playable number to compensate for it. Playing as fast as possible without giving the appearance that you are racing will add a little bit too. The other players may not know they are in a race.

I can also see where if you and another player activate the free games at the same time the player who hits the least line pays will probably get to the meter first, leaving you with catching the meter at reset or a little above. If you were competing against just one player who is also max betting and you catch the 3 RHJ symblols first: The RHJ symbols make their own unique sound when they land in the window. You could sit there catching the meter rise of your opponent and listening to his/her machine. When you hear one RHJ symbol land...get ready. If you hear a second one land....go ahead and activate your free games. Most of the time they will miss catching the third one. But this should protect you from getting outraced in the free games when he/she does catch the third one.

If I were around the game I would want to do some empirical work on the RHJ symbols to zero in on the frequency. Good luck with the game.

PS: The second meter up runs at 2.5%.

Saw it was mentioned that the bottom meter starts at 25$-- was that for the 5c, or another denom?

Quote: Venthus

Saw it was mentioned that the bottom meter starts at 25$-- was that for the 5c, or another denom?

Believe so. Memory says $10 for $.02

Quote: mickeycrimm

LOL! I guess no one wants to answer. Fin, RHJ is a wongable game. To get a look at it go to youtube. The machines are usually linked. The youtube vidio has the nickel version. The botton meter starts at $25 and runs at 5%. My playable number is $45. When you catch 3 red hot jackpot symbols in the window you are awarded at least the bottom meter and 8 free games. Catch 8 or more RHJ symbols in the free games and you are also awarded the next meter up.

b][There are some tricks to this game when u catch the 3 RHJ symbols. You have to hit the button to activate the free games. If the other players are short coining the meter will continue to go up but they don't qualify. U can sit there watching the money go up before hitting the button.

Wow, good trick to know!

I jumped in on this one night when the bottom meter was something like $95 and ended up losing $300 chasing it LOL. It usually goes around $40 - $50. I used to play it quite a bit because one of the 6 machines gave out 5x as many points as it should have. Made getting comps easy!

So I'm back from Vegas.

I don't know if I have time to post a full trip report. But, I will share my vulturing Ultimate X story.

I went to a bunch of Ultimate X machines on the strip, but didn't find anything great. Just a couple of 2X hands. Lost a little on them, no big deal.

Finally I was sick of it, so I played a 10 hand .25 machine. (Which is a lot for my bankroll) I was dealt two pair on my 2nd hand! Then I had a dealt three of a kind on the next hand! (I didn't hit any 4 of a kinds with it) So that put me up about $150 in three hands. (Which i a lot for my bankroll again). So I did a hand to get rid of my multipliers and cashed out.

Anyway, I walk over and cash the ticket in the machine, and walk back over to the Caesars sportsbook, and there are two guys going through my machine vulturing! I heard them say something like "He was playing this one"

I couldn't believe it! Trying to vulture a vulturer. Apparently there are people doing this sort of thing, although it seems like a bunch of work and not worth it.

Quote: FinsRule

Anyway, I walk over and cash the ticket in the machine, and walk back over to the Caesars sportsbook, and there are two guys going through my machine vulturing! I heard them say something like "He was playing this one"

I couldn't believe it! Trying to vulture a vulturer. Apparently there are people doing this sort of thing, although it seems like a bunch of work and not worth it.

Lol that's pretty funny. As far as it being "worth it" it depends on the place. A lot more worth it is you're the only one vulturing. I had mixed results on the one night I tried during my Feb trip. I seem to do better in the Midwest. I think I got $50 or $60 of equity last week at one casino, but was happy to profit $15 from it. I didn't hit any quads.

By "worth it" I mean making a trip specifically for vulturing. If you're walking around and you see one, you might as well give it a shot.