How much +EV for vulturing Ultimate X machines?
Quote: 100xOddslets say Deuces Wild triple play and only one 'Next hand 2x' multiplier?
Depends on the specific paytable, but if you know the paytable, it's a very easy formula.
Where X is the return percentage:
((X * 2) + (X * 2))/3 = Return
In the case of 97.09% 25-16-13-4-3-2-2-1, otherwise known as, "Holy #^$*(^, this game sucks, Deuces:"
((.9709 * 2) + (.9709 * 2))/3 = 1.29453333333 or 29.45333-% Advantage
Here's an example with one 3x multiplier and one 2x multiplier:
((.9709 * 1) + (.9709 * 2) + (.9709 * 3))/3 =1.9418 or 94.18% Advantage
Or, you could simply multiply the Base Return by the number of hands and then add the sum of the multipliers, subtracting one from each multiplier, and then dividing by the number of hands. Using the 3x and 2x again:
((.9709 * 3) + (.9709 * 3))/3 = 1.9418 or 94.18% Advantage
I think the last method is easier if you are dealing with something like Ten-Play and a bunch of different multipliers. Again, the 3x + 2x is 5x subtracting the two original hands, which have already been accounted for in the first part, equals 3x or .9709 * 3.
so not matter what the pay table, it's always +EV to play a machine with a hanging 'Next hand' multiplier?
If you look at that, "Why am I playing this," Deuces paytable I put up, then it's always important for one to remember that (single-handed) one has a 55.1049% of having a losing result. Clearly that is reduced by the fact that we are playing multiple hands, at least in terms of losing all three hands in one play, however, what a player gets on the deal (especially a dealt winner) is often going to go a long way to determining how the play goes.
Either way, it's tough to find losing disappointing...given the huge advantages to be had when one finds those multipliers...it doesn't take too long to enter the point where one mathematically should be ahead...not very many plays at all.
Are there good opportunities for Vulturing on the Strip?
Quote: IbeatyouracesMany
There are certainly many machines, though I didn't find much of anything. I imagine, as with anywhere else, early a.m. vulturing (3:00a-7:00a) is going to be very important.
Very Mean Wolf.Quote: IbeatyouracesFor sure. It's more of a hunt also as the machines are scattered throughout the casinos.
I get a thrill out of beating other vultures to the games when I know that they are around even if I lose on the play just knowing that they didn't get the opportunity. :-)
I have been out of town over the last few days at a casino. During my stay I noticed and aggressive UX hustler. I haven't really been looking at the UX. But I noticed this guy being very blatant and rude, stalking people and lighting up right next to ploppieswho are playing $1 denomination. I CANT STAND GUYS LIKE THIS.
Last night I Needed a Drink at the bar where they had UX. I just happen to walk up at the right time. A Lady and her friend just got a dealt 10 play FH .25 and cashed out all excited. I thought SWEET lucky me. I had plenty of time to kill. I wanted to bartender to see me put in my $100 bill so I played it cool(which is mealiness since you don't get free alcohol there anyways and I always forget this). I stood in front of the machine waiting before I put my bill in. The Bar was very busy at the time.
Out of Corner of my eye I notice MR. feening UX hustler checking on my left a few machines down. He couldn't get directly next to me because the seats were taken.
I get the feeling he sees my machine at some point. I still have not put in any money, but I made sure my hand was blocking the bill Validator (I have had people make crazy Hustler moves in the past).
He starts circling me like a vulture. He has no clue my intentions.
There is a bar table and chairs set up directly behind me, he camps out there waiting. He cant really see what im doing.
Sine I had time to kill, I decide to mess with him and not play it off yet. I went to a different game. I ordered my drink, made a few phone calls, text'ed a few people and really took my time. I slowly checked the other UX games and looked at all the other games and pays. I stalled for 45 min. occasionally he would get up try to catch a peek. I would occasionally find and leave that good UX game showing so he knew it was still available. I cashed out my ticket a few time and acted as if I was going to leave. I even tossed my $2 tip to the bartender.
When Mr. hustler didn't seem looking, I finally played it off. I did ok, but nothing special. A total of 50 min went by when I finally left the machine. Before I left, I scrounged out a .5 cent slot ticket and left it on the machine face down.
He immediately jumped in the seat and put money in, picked up the slot ticket I left. I sat in same spot he was stalking me from.
He checked and found nothing, he he then stormed off and disappeared for the rest of the night.
Quote: AxelWolfI have been out of town over the last few days at a casino. During my stay I noticed and aggressive UX hustler. I haven't really been looking at the UX. But I noticed this guy being very blatant and rude, stalking people and lighting up right next to ploppieswho are playing $1 denomination. I CANT STAND GUYS LIKE THIS.
Sorry you didn't hit big on that play, but glad you stuck it to that jerk.
Quote: Mission146
In the case of 97.09% 25-16-13-4-3-2-2-1, otherwise known as, "Holy #^$*(^, this game sucks, Deuces:"
((.9709 * 2) + (.9709 * 2))/3 = 1.29453333333 or 29.45333-% Advantage
FYI, you read the wrong table for "Holy #^$*(^, this game sucks, Deuces" aka "Colorado Deuces". For some reason the Wizard also includes that game with a 4700 credit Royal, which I actually have never seen in my life for deuces, I've only seen 4000 and 5600 (on 50/100 play STP) before on that game. The double deuces version of the 4700 royal game is "Downtown Deuces". Anyway, with only the standard 4000 credit royal, the return of the game is only 96.77%. This leads to a 29.03% advantage for one 2X on 3-play betting 5 coins/hand.
And what do you call the worst Ultimate X deuces paytable? lol
Quote: tringlomane
FYI, you read the wrong table for "Holy #^$*(^, this game sucks, Deuces" aka "Colorado Deuces". For some reason the Wizard also includes that game with a 4700 credit Royal, which I actually have never seen in my life for deuces, I've only seen 4000 and 5600 (on 50/100 play STP) before on that game. The double deuces version of the 4700 royal game is "Downtown Deuces". Anyway, with only the standard 4000 credit royal, the return of the game is only 96.77%. This leads to a 29.03% advantage for one 2X on 3-play betting 5 coins/hand.
And what do you call the worst Ultimate X deuces paytable? lol
I kind of randomly picked a bad paytable for the sake of an example, the formula doesn't change (just the percentage) regardless of the paytable. I was simply demonstrating how either of the formulas would work.
I can't repeat what I call the worst Ultimate X deuces paytable, here, I'd have to resign as an Administrator immediately...even if I did my best to censor it.
Quote: FinsRuleAre there good opportunities for Vulturing on the Strip?
Yes, at times. Not the Strip, but one time, I hit Red Rock which has the most UX machines I've ever encountered in one casino, and I found NOTHING.
Another time, I made rounds in the HL slot rooms on the Strip and found a bunch of mults at the $5 and $10 unit level. That was sweet!
Quote: IbeatyouracesYes, but don't expect to get rich. In fact, be prepared to be disappointed a majority of the time.
its as much fun finding a machine w/free multipliers as it is actually playing it.
but so far I've lost ~$20 total in the couple of dozen times I've played. (most of the time just 1line having a 2x multiplier on 3play machines.)
this was at .25 machines.
then I saw a $1 5play deuces wild with a couple of 2x multipliers and a 7x!
opening hand was garbage. discarded all 5 cards. and didn't get squat on the re-deal.
I just more than doubled my loses in seconds. doh!
+EV is just that... EXPECTED value. lol
Quote: 100xOddsits as much fun finding a machine w/free multipliers as it is actually playing it.
but so far I've lost ~$20 total in the couple of dozen times I've played. (most of the time just 1line having a 2x multiplier on 3play machines.)
this was at .25 machines.
then I saw a $1 5play deuces wild with a couple of 2x multipliers and a 7x!
opening hand was garbage. discarded all 5 cards. and didn't get squat on the re-deal.
I just more than doubled my loses in seconds. doh!
+EV is just that... EXPECTED value. lol
Yep that happens. Yesterday I had 6 machines with multipliers all over them. I did ok on the .05, .10, and .25 but got crushed on $1, $2, and $5.
I had a 5 play $2 DW that had all multipliers and one was a high one. Can't remember now but it was 11x or something. Got dealt squat and got even less on re redraws. That was $50 gone that quick. I ended the session -$91.
I would take that shot everyday of my life if I could. U can't even imagine getting dealt 4 deuces in that situation.
Checked the same machine last night and nobody has played that game since the hand is still there ...low volume machines in Windsor
Quote: Mission146((.9709 * 2) + (.9709 * 2))/3 = 1.29453333333 or 29.45333-% Advantage
but isn't it the 'points earned' that get multiplied? not the payoff methinks?
on my recent wanderings the points were worth a penny a point in freeplay at one place, a mill a point at another [ie 1000 pts were worth a penny]. Then the freeplay is discounted by whatever you have to play, if slots 'is it' maybe 10% on average ...
big difference between what the points are worth here? a multiplier of a mill in value versus a penny in value is the difference between a joke and a real value
Quote: IbeatyouracesIt has nothing to do with points. Winning hands get a certain multiplier applied to the next hand. If that next hand is a winner, the payoff is multiplied by that multiplier.
Wow. I walked past some abandoned Ultimate X machines with multipliers; I could swear one of them said 7x. Maybe not, but it definitely said "next hand" or somesuch.
Anyone have any bad experiences doing this?
So yeah, someone actually tried to vulture my credits.
I have many, many stories about this exact thing and all kinds of other thieving casino moves. Smarter ones try to slip in a bill or coins and don't just go for the cash out button.Quote: RSPlayed VP not long ago. Took a quick break for a smoke and stretch the legs. I left my $ in the machine, but I was standing right behind it. Some guy walks by, his head totally swivels and sees there are still some $100 in credits in the machine. He loops around the bank, nearly jumps in front of me and tries to put a voucher in. I block him from putting the voucher in, tell him I'm playing the machine, and he mutters something not understandable (basically calling me an asshole).
So yeah, someone actually tried to vulture my credits.
Funny you mentioned he called you an a hole. I noticed this seems to be the typical reaction of a credit hustler when he is cut off from the prize. Some sort of guilty defense mechanism I imagine.
It happen to my GF and most others i know who played VP when they had coin operated machines. It's a good a stunt for coin thieves (horrible for people I played with) They used to slide up the plastic plexi-glass from the opposite side of the machines, reach though and grab your buckets of coins you had sitting there in between the machines. You would never know until you went to grab you coins. I would imagine some guys made a thousand a day doing this. They probably knew what machines the cameras couldn't really see what was going on. They probably targeted drunk or old people who wouldn't even know if they left coins on the side or or not.
I either Watch my machine or leave $1 or nothing in. The most ever taken was $12 by Meadows staff. The Pennsylvania casinos just cash these things out and put it up to the player to come looking for it or the state gets it. Probably wastes it on returning the investment for bribes they take.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThe most ever taken was $12 by Meadows staff.
What, they go around vulturing too? You saw this?
I came back to my machine, talked to an attendant, and she said she cashed it out and took my player's card. I've seen attendants do it there and other Pa. casinos. Apparently they take them so others can't. The state police conduct collections when they know people have cashed out tickets, but I don't know if they make contact to find owners when the casinos are the ones taking the tickets. Would I have had a call or contact if I didn't approach, I don't know.Quote: odiousgambitWhat, they go around vulturing too? You saw this?
What exactly is vulturing?Quote: 100xOddslets say Deuces Wild triple play and only one 'Next hand 2x' multiplier?
I thought it was constant 24 hour team play of a slot machine with a min/max payout or a slot machine that is advertised as "must hit by certain Dollar Amount.
Does vulturing mean wandering casinos looking for machines that have been abandoned by players in some sort of "pregnant" state?
Quote: FleaStiffWhat exactly is vulturing?
I thought it was constant 24 hour team play of a slot machine with a min/max payout or a slot machine that is advertised as "must hit by certain Dollar Amount.
Does vulturing mean wandering casinos looking for machines that have been abandoned by players in some sort of "pregnant" state?
exactly
Quote: odiousgambitWhat, they go around vulturing too? You saw this?
I think he was referring to abandoned credits. The staff will cash out credits and then turn them in. If there is a players card left behind and they can identify who it was they will indeed return the money. Normally an attendant will not remove credits because there is paperwork required. Maybe if it is X amount then they feel it is worth their time. If it was 1.10 I would say they would just ignore it.
Quote: GWAEI think he was referring to abandoned credits. The staff will cash out credits and then turn them in. If there is a players card left behind and they can identify who it was they will indeed return the money. Normally an attendant will not remove credits because there is paperwork required. Maybe if it is X amount then they feel it is worth their time. If it was 1.10 I would say they would just ignore it.
I don't believe that's exactly right.
It seems that the attendants will remove tickets from machines at both The Meadows and Wheeling Island when they are doing their floor sweeps and changing out the cash boxes.
They could theoretically be more active about it at Meadows because it is actually illegal in the State of Pennsylvania for one player to take the ticket of another, and possibly, by extension, to play someone else's credits. I'm pretty careful about that in PA because you never know when Gaming/Police will decide to make an example of someone, so if there are any credits on a machine I want, I ticket out and put the ticket on top of the machine.
Other than that, I don't know what the casino does with the tickets. There's a donation box for people to put small tickets in at Meadows, so maybe they put them there.
It's, "Finders-Keepers," in West Virginia, by the way, unless a certain House has its own policy. I found the strangest thing the other day, in fact, $4 left behind on a machine with nobody around. I tried to cash out and it wouldn't let me. Turned out it was downloaded Free Play, but the Player's Club was not in the machine!!! Looking at the screen, I saw they were playing single-line $1.00 per line, on a machine on which you can bet up to 5 Lines * $10/Line. Anyway, they hit for $100 and apparently cashed, pulled the ticket, and left, so I knew they weren't coming back. I did four spins and won $5, anyway.
Vulturing v. Buffalo-Hunting/Sweeping
I also want to make what I believe is a correct distinction.
Vulturing is when an AP looks for machines in a positive game state (whether it be a Progressive, Bonus Games, or something like UX) and plays them in said positive state. It doesn't have to be a team locking up a bank, though it could be a team, it's just anyone who does this because they know that they are at an advantage.
Going around just doing nothing but looking for credits left behind is not Vulturing, but rather Buffalo-Hunting or Sweeping, I've heard it called both things. There are some people who do nothing but Buffalo-Hunt, sometimes homeless or just tapped out. Sometimes they will just gather as many credits as they can, ticket-out, and take a shot on something.
I'm not above selectively Buffalo-Hunting, I'll routinely check machines that are $5 Max Bet or higher (not in PA) because you'll often see $1.00, or more, left behind, so that's worth grabbing. I pretty much just glance at these for a lit up, "Cash Out," button when I'm vulturing other machines and on my way to and from, I'd never do that exclusively.
The casinos seriously frown on Buffalo-Hunting and are more aware (and on the lookout) for it than vulturing. If I happen upon $1, or more, on a $5+ Max Bet machine, then I'll stick my ticket in and pretend to take a spin, or if I find $2-$4.99 on a machine where I can take a spin for a dollar, then I'll consolidate my tickets and actually take one spin.
Quote: GWAEI think he was referring to abandoned credits. The staff will cash out credits and then turn them in. If there is a players card left behind and they can identify who it was they will indeed return the money. Normally an attendant will not remove credits because there is paperwork required. Maybe if it is X amount then they feel it is worth their time. If it was 1.10 I would say they would just ignore it.
interesting.. at md live, I see people leave $ (usually small amounts) in their machines all the time. they leave their players card in the machine and tilt their chair forward over the machine.
I've left $1000+ in the e-Craps machine to goto the bathroom.
BUT I do it after the Come out roll and a point is established. You CANNOT cashout while you have $ in play in that game
Quote: 100xOddsinteresting.. at md live, I see people leave $ (usually small amounts) in their machines all the time. they leave their players card in the machine and tilt their chair forward over the machine.
People usually do that when they are trying to hold the machine while they go the bathroom, or something. If it is something vulturable where I would be at a 5% (or more) advantage, they have exactly ten minutes to come back or I am ticketing them, putting their ticket on their PC card and setting it to the side and playing the machine.
Quote:I've left $1000+ in the e-Craps machine to goto the bathroom.
BUT I do it after the Come out roll and a point is established. You CANNOT cashout while you have $ in play in that game
I obviously wouldn't do it, but couldn't someone conceivably roll as fast as possible and try to get a win/loss in order to cash out? I mean, $1,000?
Thank you for this clarification. May I suggest that we all adopt this distinction for purposes of clarity and consistency in our posting, though use of a more precise term of "credit-hustling" would seem even better than the other more childish and less precise terms.Quote: Mission146.
Vulturing is when an AP looks for machines in a positive game state (whether it be a Progressive, Bonus Games, or something like UX) and plays them in said positive state. It doesn't have to be a team locking up a bank, though it could be a team, it's just anyone who does this because they know that they are at an advantage.
Going around just doing nothing but looking for credits left behind is not Vulturing, but rather Buffalo-Hunting or Sweeping, I've heard it called both things.
So for playing on or hogging a machine that is thought soon to pay out it is: Vulturing
For roaming a casino in search of machines that have been abandoned while having unused credits it is: Credit Hustling, Buffalo Hunting, or Sweeping.
This may help end some of the confusion I've experienced trying to follow the threads.
In all the years I have heard or talked about it it was simply called credit hustling. How is the reference buffalo-hunting correlated with this? Why do I get the feeling this is related to a different state as a term used for also collecting other things in casinos like coupons or match plays.Quote: Mission146I don't believe that's exactly right.
It seems that the attendants will remove tickets from machines at both The Meadows and Wheeling Island when they are doing their floor sweeps and changing out the cash boxes.
They could theoretically be more active about it at Meadows because it is actually illegal in the State of Pennsylvania for one player to take the ticket of another, and possibly, by extension, to play someone else's credits. I'm pretty careful about that in PA because you never know when Gaming/Police will decide to make an example of someone, so if there are any credits on a machine I want, I ticket out and put the ticket on top of the machine.
Other than that, I don't know what the casino does with the tickets. There's a donation box for people to put small tickets in at Meadows, so maybe they put them there.
It's, "Finders-Keepers," in West Virginia, by the way, unless a certain House has its own policy. I found the strangest thing the other day, in fact, $4 left behind on a machine with nobody around. I tried to cash out and it wouldn't let me. Turned out it was downloaded Free Play, but the Player's Club was not in the machine!!! Looking at the screen, I saw they were playing single-line $1.00 per line, on a machine on which you can bet up to 5 Lines * $10/Line. Anyway, they hit for $100 and apparently cashed, pulled the ticket, and left, so I knew they weren't coming back. I did four spins and won $5, anyway.
Vulturing v. Buffalo-Hunting/Sweeping
I also want to make what I believe is a correct distinction.
Vulturing is when an AP looks for machines in a positive game state (whether it be a Progressive, Bonus Games, or something like UX) and plays them in said positive state. It doesn't have to be a team locking up a bank, though it could be a team, it's just anyone who does this because they know that they are at an advantage.
Going around just doing nothing but looking for credits left behind is not Vulturing, but rather Buffalo-Hunting or Sweeping, I've heard it called both things. There are some people who do nothing but Buffalo-Hunt, sometimes homeless or just tapped out. Sometimes they will just gather as many credits as they can, ticket-out, and take a shot on something.
I'm not above selectively Buffalo-Hunting, I'll routinely check machines that are $5 Max Bet or higher (not in PA) because you'll often see $1.00, or more, left behind, so that's worth grabbing. I pretty much just glance at these for a lit up, "Cash Out," button when I'm vulturing other machines and on my way to and from, I'd never do that exclusively.
The casinos seriously frown on Buffalo-Hunting and are more aware (and on the lookout) for it than vulturing. If I happen upon $1, or more, on a $5+ Max Bet machine, then I'll stick my ticket in and pretend to take a spin, or if I find $2-$4.99 on a machine where I can take a spin for a dollar, then I'll consolidate my tickets and actually take one spin.
Quote: Mission146I obviously wouldn't do it, but couldn't someone conceivably roll as fast as possible and try to get a win/loss in order to cash out? I mean, $1,000?
this isn't bubble craps where u press the button to roll the dice.
the machine has a 35sec countdown b4 rolling the dice. plus another 15sec or so after it resolves before your touchscreen is active again.
but even tho the bathroom is near the e-craps machine, I cant go and make it back round trip in 50 sec.
I usually make it back halfway down the 35sec countdown.
and yes, if the 7 or point is hit while I'm in the bathroom, a person can cash me out. obviously if I come back to $0, I call security.
cameras everywhere, etc, etc.
and presumbably, they know what the cashout ticket # is and block it from being cashed.
Quote: 100xOddsinteresting.. at md live, I see people leave $ (usually small amounts) in their machines all the time. they leave their players card in the machine and tilt their chair forward over the machine.
I've left $1000+ in the e-Craps machine to goto the bathroom.
BUT I do it after the Come out roll and a point is established. You CANNOT cashout while you have $ in play in that game
that is an ABSOLUTE horrible thing to do. I mean really, you leave 1k left behind with no one to watch it. I have left money on a blackjack table and went to the bathroom. I would never even think about leaving chips on a real craps table or on a slot machine. My dad lost $40 in Vegas 2 years ago because he did that. He asked the lady next to him to watch his machine and went to the bathroom which was right next to where he was playing. When he came back she told him that as soon as he got up someone hit the cash out button and took his ticket. He called security and they basically told him tough luck. They got his info and told him they would look to see if the person was still there or if they could trace that person to a slot card. The security guard then told him that there are so many people in Vegas who do this for a living that they don't leave a trace behind.
The first time i seen the term "vulture" was in Dan Paymar's Video Poker Times in the mid nineties when he referred to the "vulture activity" on the Flush Attacks.
Quote: mickeycrimm
The first time i seen the term "vulture" was in Dan Paymar's Video Poker Times in the mid nineties when he referred to the "vulture activity" on the Flush Attacks.
I think Flush Attack was the first machine game I played where I knew I had a huge advantage. There was nothing as enjoyable as sitting on a dealt flush waiting for the bank to go into Flush Attack mode.
they fixed that quickly however it made it better. Best game ever, Very fun.Quote: DRichI think Flush Attack was the first machine game I played where I knew I had a huge advantage. There was nothing as enjoyable as sitting on a dealt flush waiting for the bank to go into Flush Attack mode.
Quote: AxelWolfthey fixed that quickly however it made it better. Best game ever, Very fun.
As I recall, Sigma's first fix was to make it that you had to start the hand when it was in Flush Attack mode. I hated when they did that but the game was still great. When they unlinked the machines it became even more profitable because not everyone realized the benefit of having even one flush already played off.
IMO it became more profitable because of a few things. 1. Even old ladies were smart enough to wait on pat flushes. They now became almost = competition. Usually but Not always the fastest draw got the bonus. Some locals were just as fast drawing anyways and would wait if they got a 4 flush as well. Also when they did hold a pat flush they were no longer contributing to setting it off. 2. You could get the flushes down to 42 hands where the average person probably was in the 80 hand range. 3. you could play much faster then they could during the bonus light.Quote: DRichAs I recall, Sigma's first fix was to make it that you had to start the hand when it was in Flush Attack mode. I hated when they did that but the game was still great. When they unlinked the machines it became even more profitable because not everyone realized the benefit of having even one flush already played off.
Yea the final fix was not as good. I was talking about the first fix that made it better. I almost forgot about the final Fix. This was very good to. By the time that came there were better things available and it was just a side thing.
vulturing nice progressives etc is honorable and the casinos consider it fair play [I think]
buffalo hunting is despicable and can get you into trouble with casino security
Quote: odiousgambit
vulturing nice progressives etc is honorable and the casinos consider it fair play [I think]
I disagree. Casino's despise seeing people or teams come in to play the progressives when they are high and then leave after they hit. Many teams have been asked to leave for this.
