Vulturing 'Ultimate X'
Quote: Boney526Why in the world would you guys tell people they can play off their multipliers by betting 5 credits? Not that I ever really do this, because it's usually not worth my time, but I can't figure out why you'd want less AP opportunities...
It is less objectionable to me to find a machine showing last hand multipliers and a bet of 5 per hand than to find a machine showing last hand multipliers and a bet of 1 per hand.
Quote: BozI'm still trying to figure out how 5th place only paid $3800 in a $5000 entry tournament in December 08?
A wonderful illustration of why the lifetime "winnings" of tourney players are almost meaningless.
Quote: Boney526Why in the world would you guys tell people they can play off their multipliers by betting 5 credits? Not that I ever really do this, because it's usually not worth my time, but I can't figure out why you'd want less AP opportunities...
A) To suggest to normal "very heavy" players that leaving multipliers is relatively worthless.
These players play enough to see the "vultures" all the time.
B) Making friends with people who have a negative attitude towards "vultures", and may go out of the way to (1) report "vultures" to security (2) wipe out machines themselves (3) hold machines so you can't search them.
Kind of a "reverse psychology pitch".
Some things I generally do:
1) Try very hard not to search next to a regular player playing 0.25-10.00 UX.
2) Not to annoy any regular players.
Mitchell
Quote: DieterIt is less objectionable to me to find a machine showing last hand multipliers and a bet of 5 per hand than to find a machine showing last hand multipliers and a bet of 1 per hand.
This seems to be a recent epidemic. I am at Caesars ac now and most every machine has 1 credit per game only played to the last multiplier. It could be just people playing out their credits but I don't think that is what it is. Also, local casino high limit machine gets this done. I know who is doing it and it makes me want to punch him in the face.
Quote: mamatA) To suggest to normal "very heavy" players that leaving multipliers is relatively worthless.
These players play enough to see the "vultures" all the time.
B) Making friends with people who have a negative attitude towards "vultures", and may go out of the way to (1) report "vultures" to security (2) wipe out machines themselves (3) hold machines so you can't search them.
Kind of a "reverse psychology pitch".
Some things I generally do:
1) Try very hard not to search next to a regular player playing 0.25-10.00 UX.
2) Not to annoy any regular players.
Mitchell
I've never had a problem with regular players even though they know what I'm doing. It's just best to be friendly and supportive of them as well. Good will goes a long way.
Quote: GWAEThis seems to be a recent epidemic.
I've been seeing it for at least a year out here in the wasteland.
Quote: GWAEThis seems to be a recent epidemic. I am at Caesars ac now and most every machine has 1 credit per game only played to the last multiplier. It could be just people playing out their credits but I don't think that is what it is. Also, local casino high limit machine gets this done. I know who is doing it and it makes me want to punch him in the face.
At least one person, I wrote about it:
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/ultimate-expected-value/
I didn't really want to go to security since I'm not sure of their stance on vulturing and didn't want to draw attention to myself, so I just walked up to the mark, told him he was being hustled, told the hustler what I thought of him, and briefly explained what was happening. He was under the impression that the "creator" worked for the casino, though I don't know if that's something he was told or just assumed. He either didn't understand my warning or didn't buy it, because they were still at it when I walked away.
Quote: ZiggyZamboIt wasn't just offhand comments suggesting the guy's luck had run out - the scammer was actively directing the player on when to do what, going as far as to reach over and change the games/denoms himself after a good dealt hand.
Thirty years ago I remember seeing classified ads in the newspaper advertising people who would come to the craps table with you and train you how to "win".
same old, same old.
One of the worst results for Ultimate X vultures on Triple Play.
Quote: chaunceyb3
One of the worst results for Ultimate X vultures on Triple Play.
Been there, done that.
I had a similar draw the other day on five play needing the Qd. Hit the 3d on the lone 3x I had. 'Twas only nickels though.
Quote: IbeatyouracesMissed the multiplier but I'll take it...
Nice hit! Still waiting for a $1+ quad myself, but I definitely don't hunt enough to be "due" for one. Over quaded at the 50c level too probably with 2 so far.
This was posted on facebook by the casino yesterday...
If a multiplier is left behind I wouldn't think twice about playing 5k on it.Quote: beachbumbabsNice hit, but who's got $50/spin to get that? Not me...
Some people who play have no idea how/why multipliers appear.
One lady who played 10-play $0.25 for hours every day had no clue what "vultures" were doing.
Quote: mamat...One lady who played 10-play $0.25 for hours every day had no clue what "vultures" were doing.
Most of them don't. I get asked all the time. Obviously I lie to them most of the time.
So, I looked at a $1 machine and found nothing. I go to the bathroom and a security guard enters after me. He says, "how's poker?" Never in my life has a random security guy approached me and made conversation like this. I'm not sure if it is a coincidence, or if he was trying to send a message or something.
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I played with my card once or twice, but the return is so small, I quickly decided AxelWolf is right. Not worth even a tiny chance of getting 86ed or having some other problem in a desirable property.
Rather, I sometimes use my card when there are multiple good screens, then play maybe another 10-20 hands with no advantage. That way, there's some kind of record of me as a guy who just likes to sit down and play a few hands of VP once in a while.
Quote: rudeboyoiI was at the cosmopolitan the other night and noticed on two of their machines in the high limit room there was a minimum bet required. Anyone notice this anywhere before? For vulturing purposes it only affected 5-play. Minbet of $7.50 at 25cent and Minbet of $15 at 50cent.
I've seen a pic of ultimate x with a min bet required, but never saw one in person. It might annoy the regular players more than anything. I see many players bet less than max when they are near broke.
I think intent is to keep fleas out of high limit.
Quote: tringlomaneI've seen a pic of ultimate x with a min bet required, but never saw one in person. It might annoy the regular players more than anything. I see many players bet less than max when they are near broke.
Probably mine from Motorcity. I lost all those pictures.
Quote: mamatTwin Pine has min bet $2.50, which requires 10 coins on 5-play .05 (No 3-play .05).
I see many, many people play UX only betting 1-5 coins and not playing all of the lines. Just imagine how much casinos are losing from these people with these min bets.
Quote: IbeatyouracesI see many, many people play UX only betting 1-5 coins and not playing all of the lines. Just imagine how much casinos are losing from these people with these min bets.
Here's one of the regulars betting 4 credits per line...
Quote: IbeatyouracesMissed the multiplier but I'll take it...
I didn't miss the multiplier =D. You still made more though lol. And yes, I'll definitely still take it!
Quote: RomesQuote: IbeatyouracesMissed the multiplier but I'll take it...
I didn't miss the multiplier =D. You still made more though lol. And yes, I'll definitely still take it!
I hit quad fives earlier today and they missed too. Was still nice as I was $45 in the hole at the time.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHere's one of the regulars betting 4 credits per line...
Now that's cringeworthy. Probably shouldn't be surprised with the touch screen use either.
Quote: Sabretom2South Point just put several UX machines at the bar. How does one vulture a bar machine?
It's just a multigame unit put on a bartop. Boyd is putting a good amount of them in lately too. Not nearly as good paytables though.
Quote: DanMahoneySome how I missed the discussion on floppies and the use of touch screen. I personally use both buttons and touch screen depending on bad button and tired arms. What exactly is the problem using touch screen since speed is about the same?
Most people can do buttons faster I think, which means they probably are "more experienced". I could be wrong on that observation though. On machines with bad buttons though, I will revert to the touch screen if I can't/don't want to move machines.
Quote: IbeatyouracesUX is becoming highly popular and in my opinion, the most addictive.
It's been highly popular in St. Louis for quite awhile now. Ultimate X and Super Times Pay has helped keep VP alive, imo. When visiting Vegas, I felt like they were behind until the CET overhaul of their VP machines. Tunica is really behind on Ultimate X. 2 of the 8 casinos (Bally's and Fitzgeralds) still don't have it. One other casino, Resorts, just got All Star IIs last month. Their first ever VP machine that wasn't a Game King in the entire casino.
Quote: tringlomaneIt's been highly popular in St. Louis for quite a while now. Ultimate X and Super Times Pay has helped keep VP alive, imo. When visiting Vegas, I felt like they were behind until the CET overhaul of their VP machines. Tunica is really behind on Ultimate X. 2 of the 8 casinos (Bally's and Fitzgeralds) still don't have it. One other casino, Resorts, just got All Star IIs last month. Their first ever VP machine that wasn't a Game King in the entire casino.
I noticed Harrah's in Vegas had a ton of them. They are painfully slow to look through though. I ended up playing a short session of Double Down Stud. I quit when I doubled on a flush draw and hit with a nice profit.
My mind is mixed on them, though.
I like the pay scale - but when you get that dry run, it really eats up the bank roll. On the plus side, a dealt flush, full house, or even a quad is awesome with one line, let alone many lines.
Quote: tringlomaneIt's been highly popular in St. Louis for quite awhile now. Ultimate X and Super Times Pay has helped keep VP alive, imo. When visiting Vegas, I felt like they were behind until the CET overhaul of their VP machines. Tunica is really behind on Ultimate X. 2 of the 8 casinos (Bally's and Fitzgeralds) still don't have it. One other casino, Resorts, just got All Star IIs last month. Their first ever VP machine that wasn't a Game King in the entire casino.
Trig, I know you're the VP expert across multiple boards.
I played this for the first time recently and love it. After first experience, much more crack like than STP.
For someone knowing strategy for normal DDB/BDX/BP/JOB, which game a) do you normally find the best paytables for and b) have the least deviation from normal VP strategy for the game.
I saw a DDB UX strategy listing and there were enough changes that I wouldn't be close to be playing optimally with standard DDB strategy.
Quote: wezvidzTrig, I know you're the VP expert across multiple boards.
I played this for the first time recently and love it. After first experience, much more crack like than STP.
For someone knowing strategy for normal DDB/BDX/BP/JOB, which game a) do you normally find the best paytables for and b) have the least deviation from normal VP strategy for the game.
I saw a DDB UX strategy listing and there were enough changes that I wouldn't be close to be playing optimally with standard DDB strategy.
Just don't blame me for this "crack" addiction! :P
At far as "best" paytables go, independent multiplier optimal strategy (which can be found on WOO site) looks like this for 3 line:
"Full Pay Games"
9/6 DDB - 99.66%
8/6 BDX - 99.53%
8/6 JoB - 99.24%
7/5 Bonus - 99.17%
Unfortunately, there are only a few places in town that offer these games for quarters. Namely at South Point. But even at bartops! Hard Rock (quarters) and Palms (50c) also should have 9/6 DDB. Stratosphere offers 7/5 Bonus for quarters.
Now...onto the paytables that can actually be found at some of the popular areas of the strip.
9/5 DDB - 98.28%
8/5 BDX - 98.01%
6/5 Bonus - 98.01%
8/5 JoB - 97.77%
Fortunately, basic strategies can be computed for short pay tables via trial-and-error using JB's strategy calculator.
Discussion how is in this thread.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/20663-learning-a-new-game-utx-or-qq/
For the two games 98%+ I have found on the strip, I've already calculated strategies. 6/5 Bonus is nice because you know immediately it's a 98% game. Its strategy is very similar to full pay Bonus.
6/5 Bonus: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-37-c-1-d-0.2454-d-0.9908-d-1.7363-d-2.482-d-3.963-d-5.2-d-5.945-d-13.236-d-20.982-d-40.982-d-25.982-d-400.982/
9/5 DDB: https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/a-1-b-57-c-1-d-0.2457-d-0.9915-d-1.2373-d-2.483-d-3.966-d-4.9575-d-7.449-d-25.491-d-40.491-d-80.491-d-80.491-d-200.491-d-25.491-d-400.491/
7/5 DDB and 8/5 DDB are the same, except you break Aces full.
Now where can you find 6/5 Bonus and 9/5 DDB for quarters or less...
Mirage...6/5 Bonus for 10-play nickels 3-play quarters? and higher
Cosmo...6/5 Bonus for 3/5/10? play nickels and higher....9/5 DDB for 3 play quarters
Several CET properties, 6/5 Bonus for dollars. Harrah's used to have it for nickels, but I didn't get around to double checking after the downgrades this year.
And surprisingly, most games played with "standard VP strategy" costs you a lot less than 1% and bonus is less than 0.5%. A lot lower than I expected before "doing the math". I'm guessing because the 3 to a flush holds sacrifice EV for extra multiplier value in a somewhat "balanced way". More details in this post.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/video-poker/16685-vulturing-ultimate-x/40/#post469146
Quote: Avincowwow, lots of vultures in Vegas as opposed to my local stores....it's painfully obvious when someone is doing it. Counting out loud at the blackjack table is probably less suspicious. Probably best to just avoid this play, amirite?
We saw only one person doing it. It was at Harrah's. They have a bunch of machines.
Quote: teddysThere are a ton of vultures but sometimes you can find stuff. I found a $0.25 ten play with 7x multipliers on every line at a Strip casino last trip.
Remember this one I posted I found at The Palms? Unfortunately only profited $20 :-(
