"Moving On Up" VP analysis?
July 27th, 2013 at 6:13:50 PM
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I just played a few hands of "Moving On Up" video poker at Red Rock.
In this game you can pay 15 coins to play two lines or 30 coins to play 3.
You deal, hold and draw the bottom line then the resulting hand is moved up to the next line where you can change the held cards and draw again. That resulting hand is moved up to the third line if that's what you're playing, where you can hold and draw again.
Interestingly, on the two line version, Jacks or Better was 6/5 but the Deuces Wild was the same as NSU but with 11 for the straight flush instead of 10.
It was unclear to me whether or not all cards seen and perhaps discarded on the lower lines, or just those cards moved up, are removed from subsequent decks.
Has this game been analyzed yet? I've never seen it before and don't see it listed on wizardofodds.
In this game you can pay 15 coins to play two lines or 30 coins to play 3.
You deal, hold and draw the bottom line then the resulting hand is moved up to the next line where you can change the held cards and draw again. That resulting hand is moved up to the third line if that's what you're playing, where you can hold and draw again.
Interestingly, on the two line version, Jacks or Better was 6/5 but the Deuces Wild was the same as NSU but with 11 for the straight flush instead of 10.
It was unclear to me whether or not all cards seen and perhaps discarded on the lower lines, or just those cards moved up, are removed from subsequent decks.
Has this game been analyzed yet? I've never seen it before and don't see it listed on wizardofodds.
July 28th, 2013 at 9:00:20 AM
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I've seen it. As I recall, the Jacks or Better paid 6 for a flush, and 5 for a straight. The full house paid something like 12, and actually I think there was a 12/7/5 schedule at the highest denomination.
Assuming I wasn't hallucinating, I think it's clever that they've found a way to offer spectacular-looking pay schedules, while presumably returning less than 100%.
Assuming I wasn't hallucinating, I think it's clever that they've found a way to offer spectacular-looking pay schedules, while presumably returning less than 100%.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
July 28th, 2013 at 12:11:38 PM
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I've seen this game at the Peppermill in Reno. It would be a monster to analyze, due to the enormous number of combinations.
Single draw = 3,986,646,103,440 combinations
Double draw = 3,391,312,267,521,100,000 combinations
Triple draw = 1,478,262,843,475,640,000,000,000 combinations
I've cracked double draw years ago, but without getting paid after the first draw, and it took about a month of computer time to cut through one pay table.
I've asked IGT for just the pay tables and returns, which they usually provide, but sometimes they are slow in getting me this information, including this time.
For now I just have some pictures, rules, and examples on my Movin On Up page.
By the way, every time I get started to do anything with this game I can't the theme song to the Jeffersons out of my head.
Single draw = 3,986,646,103,440 combinations
Double draw = 3,391,312,267,521,100,000 combinations
Triple draw = 1,478,262,843,475,640,000,000,000 combinations
I've cracked double draw years ago, but without getting paid after the first draw, and it took about a month of computer time to cut through one pay table.
I've asked IGT for just the pay tables and returns, which they usually provide, but sometimes they are slow in getting me this information, including this time.
For now I just have some pictures, rules, and examples on my Movin On Up page.
By the way, every time I get started to do anything with this game I can't the theme song to the Jeffersons out of my head.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 28th, 2013 at 12:47:20 PM
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Quote: WizardBy the way, every time I get started to do anything with this game I can't the theme song to the Jeffersons out of my head.
I have the same disability :(
Peppermill's pay schedule for 5-cent coins is equivalent to Red Rock for dollars, as I recall. That's something I hate about Stations and Boyd casinos: if you want to play anything fun (i.e., low-denomination, multi-line), the pay schedules are reliably brutal.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
July 28th, 2013 at 2:43:24 PM
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Quote: gpac1377I have the same disability :(
Did you finally get your piece of the pie?
Quote:Peppermill's pay schedule for 5-cent coins is equivalent to Red Rock for dollars, as I recall. That's something I hate about Stations and Boyd casinos: if you want to play anything fun (i.e., low-denomination, multi-line), the pay schedules are reliably brutal.
Yep. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think either one will sometimes accidentally roll out a new game with a liberal pay table.
With this one, especially on the Triple Draw, you could safely put out a 100% game and make money because player error percentages will be so high.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 28th, 2013 at 4:27:47 PM
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Quote: WizardDid you finally get your piece of the pie?
Since this is a math site, I should make a "pi" reference, but I got nothin. For what it's worth, I do live in a penthouse apartment ... on the 2nd floor of a 2-story building.
Did someone say "100% game"? I think the new games with difficult strategies should be the best hope for such possibilities in the future. Right now the casinos are happy to offer 98% schedules that return maybe 94% to unskilled players, but if they ever decide to target a broader, more value-conscious clientele, they may be forced to bump up the returns to avoid slaughtering the less capable players.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
July 28th, 2013 at 4:36:47 PM
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Quote: gpac1377
Did someone say "100% game"? I think the new games with difficult strategies should be the best hope for such possibilities in the future. Right now the casinos are happy to offer 98% schedules that return maybe 94% to unskilled players, but if they ever decide to target a broader, more value-conscious clientele, they may be forced to bump up the returns to avoid slaughtering the less capable players.
People still play 7/5 DDB Ultimate X by the droves at Hollywood St. Louis, so I'm not expecting that anytime soon. :-\
July 28th, 2013 at 5:52:08 PM
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Quote: tringlomanePeople still play 7/5 DDB Ultimate X by the droves at Hollywood St. Louis, so I'm not expecting that anytime soon. :-\
What's the payback % on that game?
July 28th, 2013 at 6:16:17 PM
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96.10%/96.15%/96.22% for 3/5/10 play, respectively. Considering how people actually play the game (quite non-optimally), I wouldn't be shocked if the game held 8% or more.
July 28th, 2013 at 7:02:38 PM
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Quote: tringlomane96.10%/96.15%/96.22% for 3/5/10 play, respectively. Considering how people actually play the game (quite non-optimally), I wouldn't be shocked if the game held 8% or more.
That sounds plausible, especially if they routinely abandon multipliers.
So imagine you're an ordinary degenerate, and you choose Ultimate X for nickels, 10 play, at a speed of 500 games per hour. Your hourly coin-in is $2,500, and at an 8% loss rate, you'll spew $200 per hour. With variance of course.
Playing nickels.
I can't even comprehend that.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
July 28th, 2013 at 8:01:09 PM
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I did a game I called "Royal Up" and pitched it to IGT many years ago. It was a 3/5 play game where any "Royal Flush Cards" after the first hand would move up to the hand above. This would repeat for each hand. So if you got 2,3,4, or 5 cards to the Royal they would move up and you could try to improve it on the next hand. IF you improved it, the improved hand Royal Cards would move up to the hand above and this repeated.
Of course it was great when you got the Royal on the first hand because all five card would move up to every hand above.
This game was pretty much the opposite of my Ace Invaders game. Sadly, this ones fate was worse than Ace Invaders. :(
Of course it was great when you got the Royal on the first hand because all five card would move up to every hand above.
This game was pretty much the opposite of my Ace Invaders game. Sadly, this ones fate was worse than Ace Invaders. :(
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
July 31st, 2013 at 8:46:43 PM
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I just got the return tables from IGT and added them to my Movin' on Up page. Any comments, corrections, or questions before I announce it to the rest of the world?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
July 31st, 2013 at 8:54:15 PM
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Quote: WizardI just got the return tables from IGT and added them to my Movin' on Up page. Any comments, corrections, or questions before I announce it to the rest of the world?
five is writen twice on Line 2 of double draw
Be careful when you follow the masses, the M is sometimes silent.
July 31st, 2013 at 10:10:08 PM
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Quote: WizardI just got the return tables from IGT and added them to my Movin' on Up page. Any comments, corrections, or questions before I announce it to the rest of the world?
Assuming you are asking for editing....{...} is a delete suggestion.
1.Player makes a 5-credit base wager and a 25-credit fee to enable {to} the Double Draw feature.
2.As in conventional video poker, the player is dealt {a five} five cards from a 52-card deck.
3.The player chooses to hold the cards he wishes to keep and the rest of the cards are replaced from the remaining 47 cards in the deck.
4.The player is paid based {on this hand} on the poker value of this first hand on the draw and his 5-credit base wager.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
July 31st, 2013 at 10:42:42 PM
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What is suggested above and:
(To be consistent with the titles and the game's title display.)
There are two versions of Movin' On Up: Double Play Draw and Triple Play Draw. To avoid confusion, I'll explain them separately.
...
Triple Draw
1. Player makes a 5-credit base wager and a 25-credit fee to enable the Double Triple Draw feature.
(To be consistent with the titles and the game's title display.)
There are two versions of Movin' On Up: Double Play Draw and Triple Play Draw. To avoid confusion, I'll explain them separately.
...
Triple Draw
1. Player makes a 5-credit base wager and a 25-credit fee to enable the Double Triple Draw feature.
August 1st, 2013 at 3:28:27 AM
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Thank you for all the edits above.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 1st, 2013 at 8:48:14 AM
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Thank you Wizard for the info, but I think I'm doubting the appeal of this product to the target audience.
We know the degens will choose Triple Draw rather than Double Draw, because hey, it's an extra chance to win!
And they'll choose Double Double Bonus because ... kickers.
But the DDB pay schedule they'll see will be something like [45]/6/5 (97.09%).
I realize casual players don't fixate on pay schedules, but that's hard to ignore. Of course they could switch over to Jacks or Better for 12/7/[5] (97.71%), but they'll probably never even look there. They'll just quit playing unless they catch a lucky session.
We know the degens will choose Triple Draw rather than Double Draw, because hey, it's an extra chance to win!
And they'll choose Double Double Bonus because ... kickers.
But the DDB pay schedule they'll see will be something like [45]/6/5 (97.09%).
I realize casual players don't fixate on pay schedules, but that's hard to ignore. Of course they could switch over to Jacks or Better for 12/7/[5] (97.71%), but they'll probably never even look there. They'll just quit playing unless they catch a lucky session.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
August 2nd, 2013 at 1:07:27 AM
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I noticed that too gpac. It's a really bad break for this game to have a paytable like that for the most popular video poker variant on the market. Outside of McCarran, it's pretty hard to find 6/5 DDB even on the Strip! Also note that TDB isn't offered for triple draw.
August 2nd, 2013 at 2:10:42 AM
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Quote: tringlomaneAlso note that TDB isn't offered for triple draw.
Probably because with 2 draws, the prize for AWAK would have to be reduced considerably (thereby eliminating TDB's identity) and/or the prizes for lower hands would have to be so crippled that it would resemble a Deuces Wild paytable.
August 10th, 2013 at 6:14:28 PM
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So would the strategy for this game be just to play the regular strategy for whatever the pay schedule?
August 10th, 2013 at 10:13:53 PM
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Quote: bugsylucianoSo would the strategy for this game be just to play the regular strategy for whatever the pay schedule?
Unfortunately, I don't think so because you want to maximize your winnings over all the draws. It may be a decent first approximation though since unlike Multi-Strike Poker, you're guaranteed all your draws.
August 11th, 2013 at 10:21:26 AM
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Quote: tringlomaneUnfortunately, I don't think so because you want to maximize your winnings over all the draws. It may be a decent first approximation though since unlike Multi-Strike Poker, you're guaranteed all your draws.
Yeah but wouldn't that be the same as multi-line video poker? You still use the same strategy even though you have multiple draws.
August 11th, 2013 at 12:02:10 PM
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Quote: bugsylucianoYeah but wouldn't that be the same as multi-line video poker? You still use the same strategy even though you have multiple draws.
I may be talking nonsense here, so keep that in mind, but certainly there would be strategy variations for the second and/or third draws because you need to consider the exposed cards and adjust accordingly. In fact if they offered the game with higher numbers of draws, it would become something of a memory test, wouldn't it?
But what about the strategy for the initial draw? I think it would also change, but I'm probably wrong.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
August 11th, 2013 at 12:55:29 PM
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Quote: bugsylucianoYeah but wouldn't that be the same as multi-line video poker? You still use the same strategy even though you have multiple draws.
Not quite, you're not resetting the deck for every draw in this game like you do in standard multi-line AND you redraw to possibly improved hands after the initial draw.
August 11th, 2013 at 5:47:02 PM
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Quote: tringlomaneNot quite, you're not resetting the deck for every draw in this game like you do in standard multi-line AND you redraw to possibly improved hands after the initial draw.
Ok, I can see how the deck not resetting would make a difference in the strategy. Thanks.
