Joined: Feb 17, 2012
• Posts: 370
July 27th, 2013 at 6:13:50 PM permalink
I just played a few hands of "Moving On Up" video poker at Red Rock.

In this game you can pay 15 coins to play two lines or 30 coins to play 3.

You deal, hold and draw the bottom line then the resulting hand is moved up to the next line where you can change the held cards and draw again. That resulting hand is moved up to the third line if that's what you're playing, where you can hold and draw again.

Interestingly, on the two line version, Jacks or Better was 6/5 but the Deuces Wild was the same as NSU but with 11 for the straight flush instead of 10.

It was unclear to me whether or not all cards seen and perhaps discarded on the lower lines, or just those cards moved up, are removed from subsequent decks.

Has this game been analyzed yet? I've never seen it before and don't see it listed on wizardofodds.
gpac1377
Joined: Apr 7, 2013
• Posts: 676
July 28th, 2013 at 9:00:20 AM permalink
I've seen it. As I recall, the Jacks or Better paid 6 for a flush, and 5 for a straight. The full house paid something like 12, and actually I think there was a 12/7/5 schedule at the highest denomination.

Assuming I wasn't hallucinating, I think it's clever that they've found a way to offer spectacular-looking pay schedules, while presumably returning less than 100%.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 21936
July 28th, 2013 at 12:11:38 PM permalink
I've seen this game at the Peppermill in Reno. It would be a monster to analyze, due to the enormous number of combinations.

Single draw = 3,986,646,103,440 combinations
Double draw = 3,391,312,267,521,100,000 combinations
Triple draw = 1,478,262,843,475,640,000,000,000 combinations

I've cracked double draw years ago, but without getting paid after the first draw, and it took about a month of computer time to cut through one pay table.

I've asked IGT for just the pay tables and returns, which they usually provide, but sometimes they are slow in getting me this information, including this time.

For now I just have some pictures, rules, and examples on my Movin On Up page.

By the way, every time I get started to do anything with this game I can't the theme song to the Jeffersons out of my head.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
gpac1377
Joined: Apr 7, 2013
• Posts: 676
July 28th, 2013 at 12:47:20 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

By the way, every time I get started to do anything with this game I can't the theme song to the Jeffersons out of my head.

I have the same disability :(

Peppermill's pay schedule for 5-cent coins is equivalent to Red Rock for dollars, as I recall. That's something I hate about Stations and Boyd casinos: if you want to play anything fun (i.e., low-denomination, multi-line), the pay schedules are reliably brutal.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 21936
July 28th, 2013 at 2:43:24 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

I have the same disability :(

Did you finally get your piece of the pie?

Quote:

Peppermill's pay schedule for 5-cent coins is equivalent to Red Rock for dollars, as I recall. That's something I hate about Stations and Boyd casinos: if you want to play anything fun (i.e., low-denomination, multi-line), the pay schedules are reliably brutal.

Yep. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think either one will sometimes accidentally roll out a new game with a liberal pay table.

With this one, especially on the Triple Draw, you could safely put out a 100% game and make money because player error percentages will be so high.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
gpac1377
Joined: Apr 7, 2013
• Posts: 676
July 28th, 2013 at 4:27:47 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Did you finally get your piece of the pie?

Since this is a math site, I should make a "pi" reference, but I got nothin. For what it's worth, I do live in a penthouse apartment ... on the 2nd floor of a 2-story building.

Did someone say "100% game"? I think the new games with difficult strategies should be the best hope for such possibilities in the future. Right now the casinos are happy to offer 98% schedules that return maybe 94% to unskilled players, but if they ever decide to target a broader, more value-conscious clientele, they may be forced to bump up the returns to avoid slaughtering the less capable players.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
• Posts: 6261
July 28th, 2013 at 4:36:47 PM permalink
Quote: gpac1377

Did someone say "100% game"? I think the new games with difficult strategies should be the best hope for such possibilities in the future. Right now the casinos are happy to offer 98% schedules that return maybe 94% to unskilled players, but if they ever decide to target a broader, more value-conscious clientele, they may be forced to bump up the returns to avoid slaughtering the less capable players.

People still play 7/5 DDB Ultimate X by the droves at Hollywood St. Louis, so I'm not expecting that anytime soon. :-\
IAchance5
Joined: May 28, 2010
• Posts: 165
July 28th, 2013 at 5:52:08 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

People still play 7/5 DDB Ultimate X by the droves at Hollywood St. Louis, so I'm not expecting that anytime soon. :-\

What's the payback % on that game?
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
• Posts: 6261
July 28th, 2013 at 6:16:17 PM permalink
96.10%/96.15%/96.22% for 3/5/10 play, respectively. Considering how people actually play the game (quite non-optimally), I wouldn't be shocked if the game held 8% or more.
gpac1377
Joined: Apr 7, 2013
• Posts: 676
July 28th, 2013 at 7:02:38 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

96.10%/96.15%/96.22% for 3/5/10 play, respectively. Considering how people actually play the game (quite non-optimally), I wouldn't be shocked if the game held 8% or more.

That sounds plausible, especially if they routinely abandon multipliers.

So imagine you're an ordinary degenerate, and you choose Ultimate X for nickels, 10 play, at a speed of 500 games per hour. Your hourly coin-in is \$2,500, and at an 8% loss rate, you'll spew \$200 per hour. With variance of course.

Playing nickels.

I can't even comprehend that.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."