Having to show ID at check in
source: https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/circa-las-vegas-downtown/
Obviously this is bad news for any card counters hoping to fly under the casino's radar.
My question: how many other Las Vegas casinos require that you show ID at the time of entry?
Any of the strip casinos?
Quote: MrVI read elsewhere that {Unlike most resorts in Vegas, Circa is a 21-and-up establishment so be prepared to show ID before you even walk in the door."
source: https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/circa-las-vegas-downtown/
Obviously this is bad news for any card counters hoping to fly under the casino's radar.
My question: how many other Las Vegas casinos require that you show ID at the time of entry?
Any of the strip casinos?
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Reports that Circa is carding everybody at the front entrance are absolutely true (go down to where it says "Wednesday" in the first post).
As a card counter, if you keep your sessions short, it takes care of many issues. They have to determine that you are indeed counting and a threat before they take any action, regardless of if they know who you are or not. Short sessions and playing limits tolerated takes care of much of that. That is really all I want to say about it at this point.
Not sure if they still do it.
Quote: ChumpChangeNYS casinos had to check IDs while people walked in wearing masks and they had to lower their mask for the camera and get their temperature checked. The NYS Governor had 50% occupancy limits, then things got worse and he had to lower them to 25% limits last year. All those plastic barriers that came down earlier this year should come back up too. With Omicron cases coming on strong in many states this coming week, I'd say they'd be wise to bring all that back immediately.
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That temperature check is kind of useless. I was hired to deal a home game once where they checked everyone, dealers and players. Because I screwed up the time I got there way early and sat in my car for almost an hour waiting, then chatted with my dealer crew a few minutes. They took my reading. 91F! According to one of our resident docs on this site that is the kind of reading the famous Dr. Cyril Whect records for his patients. (embellishment mine)
About 10 years ago I got carded walking into our local casino, I was about age 42. It was mid morning IIRC. The woman was serious! So I just pull our my ID with a smile and think, "one of us is getting a surprise in 5 seconds and it will not be me!" She gives an "OMG!" and thanks me.
But back to sort of on point, I am surprised they would scan ID as people entered. A casino that does that is not a casino I am going to want to patronize and many other people will feel the same. That is the kind of customer service the TSA gives, and for what good reason?
What's interesting though, was that if he paid that much attention to me, why didn't he remember that I never showed ID before that night?
Anyway, then this black girl who was with me and the girl I was dating started telling the bouncer that it was just a racial thing that he wasn't letting us all in, even though she was the only African American in my party, but it worked - the bouncer backed down and even apologized to me later.
So that ID scanner you had at your clubs doesn't work for people who simply re-create the re-entry stamp.
I have had a few casinos scan ID at the door and yes they are using it to ID AP's. In my case, a new pic of myself as I got scanned was uploaded to OSN.
So, yeah, I just sent team members who weren't flagged in their database.
Quote: darkozThe AP scan check doesn't work if you just hire a new person who isn't in their database.
I have had a few casinos scan ID at the door and yes they are using it to ID AP's. In my case, a new pic of myself as I got scanned was uploaded to OSN.
So, yeah, I just sent team members who weren't flagged in their database.
Not an attack on you personally, Darkoz, but I don't care for your 'model' of running teams at all. You hire, use of and then dispose of team members. Disposable team members. In short, you are 'using people'. I guess there can be an argument that is the way life works, but I just don't care for that model.
There were a number of blackjack teams that were doing this as well 10 years ago or so. Any hope that these unsuspecting players have of ever playing again on their own are gone, because their identity and face have been used up making the team managers rich.
I much more admire teams that really treat their players as partners and devise ways for everyone to benefit and achieve longevity together. I equate what you do to a "sweatshop" for advantage players that are being taken advantage of.
Sure, use a huge spread, play for hours or sometimes during slow times and you may draw some mild heat, but in general these places offer mediocre to crappy games, 8 decks with very mediocre Penetration and have a "do your best" attitude and if "your best" falls outside their comfort levels then they will take action. That's just my experience. Other's may vary.
I really think the Iding at only Circa is just about keeping some track of just who is in the brand new property, wanting to minimize the Fremont street "thugary.
Quote: mcallister3200I’ve also seen no evidence they are using it for that purpose but I have seen initial entry OSN photos that are absolutely from the D, the carpet is a dead giveaway.
So you have access to OSN do ya? LOL.
Quote: kewljQuote: mcallister3200I’ve also seen no evidence they are using it for that purpose but I have seen initial entry OSN photos that are absolutely from the D, the carpet is a dead giveaway.
So you have access to OSN do ya? LOL.
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Used to, before some IT moron with no discretion advertised their flaw to them in an attempt to get hired.
Quote: kewljQuote: darkozThe AP scan check doesn't work if you just hire a new person who isn't in their database.
I have had a few casinos scan ID at the door and yes they are using it to ID AP's. In my case, a new pic of myself as I got scanned was uploaded to OSN.
So, yeah, I just sent team members who weren't flagged in their database.
Not an attack on you personally, Darkoz, but I don't care for your 'model' of running teams at all. You hire, use of and then dispose of team members. Disposable team members. In short, you are 'using people'. I guess there can be an argument that is the way life works, but I just don't care for that model.
There were a number of blackjack teams that were doing this as well 10 years ago or so. Any hope that these unsuspecting players have of ever playing again on their own are gone, because their identity and face have been used up making the team managers rich.
I much more admire teams that really treat their players as partners and devise ways for everyone to benefit and achieve longevity together. I equate what you do to a "sweatshop" for advantage players that are being taken advantage of.
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I certainly don't "dispose" of team members. I have operations at some point or other in five states and perhaps two dozen casinos. I shuffle my people where necessary.
At one point I even paid for airfare and hotel for my crew to hit a particularly far away location.
Most of my team members have been with me for five to eight years. They are all aware of the AP war. I explain their right to get up and leave if surrounded by security and reasonable answers to certain questions ("someone's players card was in the machine. They just came back and retrieved it") etc.
I also pay them extremely high. As much as $400 an hour and warn them to not go spend crazy as an operation can always end on short notice.
No one is being mislead.
Quote: darkozI also pay them extremely high. As much as $400 an hour and warn them to not go spend crazy as an operation can always end on short notice.
That $400 an hour: how often do they see that sort of pay day, and what must they do the justify receiving it?
What is their typical hourly pay?
Quote: MrVQuote: darkozI also pay them extremely high. As much as $400 an hour and warn them to not go spend crazy as an operation can always end on short notice.
That $400 an hour: how often do they see that sort of pay day, and what must they do the justify receiving it?
What is their typical hourly pay?
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Between two and five hours a week.
Everyone on my team is about going in and getting out as quickly as possible.
They don't officially get paid hourly. I give them tasks and they get paid by the task. So if they want to take all day that's on them. Generally the tasks can be done such that they make the equivalent of $400 an hour.
One glance at the length and circuity of your explanation on what should be a simple wages calculation seems to affirm this.
Quote: MDawgDarkOz, isn't it possible that given the imprecision in assigning yourself "$20,000. a week" that you're relegating this same free wheeling, Marx Brothers approach to assuming that your underlings are taking in $400. an hour?
One glance at the length and circuity of your explanation on what should be a simple wages calculation seems to affirm this.
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No. It's pretty accurate.
Between your accounting on your play and mine there is some freewheeling with numbers. It's not me doing the freewheeling!
The problem with my $20,000 a week but not every week claim is people somehow feel a weekly income should be for every week of the year.
Here we have $400 an hour up for contention. Are you suggesting that because people only work 2-3 hours a week it's not really $400 an hour? It has to be divided by 40 hours a week (even though they really only worked 2-5) hours.
Here comes your fancy math again I suppose.
So, yes, they make $400 an hour. But not every hour!
Quote: darkozQuote: MDawgDarkOz, isn't it possible that given the imprecision in assigning yourself "$20,000. a week" that you're relegating this same free wheeling, Marx Brothers approach to assuming that your underlings are taking in $400. an hour?
One glance at the length and circuity of your explanation on what should be a simple wages calculation seems to affirm this.
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No. It's pretty accurate.
Between your accounting on your play and mine there is some freewheeling with numbers. It's not me doing the freewheeling!
The problem with my $20,000 a week but not every week claim is people somehow feel a weekly income should be for every week of the year.
Here we have $400 an hour up for contention. Are you suggesting that because people only work 2-3 hours a week it's not really $400 an hour? It has to be divided by 40 hours a week (even though they really only worked 2-5) hours.
Here comes your fancy math again I suppose.
So, yes, they make $400 an hour. But not every hour!
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I have a friend who is a cook. He makes $360 an hour. Not every hour or even most hours. But that one hour a week where he cashes his paycheck- That hour he makes $360 . The other 45 hours don't matter.
Quote: billryanSo you make $20,000 a week, but not every week, or even most weeks, and your people make $400 an hour, but not every hour or even most hours.
I have a friend who is a cook. He makes $360 an hour. Not every hour or even most hours. But that one hour a week where he cashes his paycheck- That hour he makes $360 . The other 45 hours don't matter.
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It's obvious there are very jealous people on this forum.
Since a weekly amount is too obtuse for most people let's do it annually.
The last two years I made mid six figure incomes.
I did not work every week of the year. But when I did have weeks I worked those weeks (approximately $20,000 per week) added up to a mid six figure salary as such is claimed on my IRS return.
Now don't ask me if I have made four to five million in the last decade because guess what? For the last decade I made mid six figures a year. But not every year!
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Now you say you make mid-six figures. You've already lost one zero off your income in a flash.
I'm reminded of a scene in That Girl. Marla did an acting job and said it was her first five-figure paycheck. - $582.57.
Quote: billryanJealous? Perhaps. I'd say concerned with the truth, but whatever works for you.
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Now you say you make mid-six figures. You've already lost one zero off your income in a flash.
I'm reminded of a scene in That Girl. Marla did an acting job and said it was her first five-figure paycheck. - $582.57.
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Are you mathematically dense?
$20,000 x 52 weeks is $1,040,000.
Since I have always stated that I don't make $20,000 every week (and I didn't mean taking off work just two weeks of the year) how did I lose a zero?
You know what. I don't think your problem is with math. It's reading comprehension. If I say not every week you can't comprehend what that means
I feel sad for you but hey that's why I make mid six figures and you sell comics for a few pennies profit.
Nitpicking each other's part time gigs probably isn't germane or helpful.
Quote: darkozQuote: billryanJealous? Perhaps. I'd say concerned with the truth, but whatever works for you.
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Now you say you make mid-six figures. You've already lost one zero off your income in a flash.
I'm reminded of a scene in That Girl. Marla did an acting job and said it was her first five-figure paycheck. - $582.57.
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Are you mathematically dense?
$20,000 x 52 weeks is $1,040,000.
Since I have always stated that I don't make $20,000 every week (and I didn't mean taking off work just two weeks of the year) how did I lose a zero?
You know what. I don't think your problem is with math. It's reading comprehension. If I say not every week you can't comprehend what that means
I feel sad for you but hey that's why I make mid six figures and you sell comics for a few pennies profit.
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Then you walked it back to some weeks.
$20,000 a week is a seven figure income. Now you say mid-six figures. You are the one who dropped the extra zero. No one else.
Am I supposed to be impressed you claim to make six figures a year hustling casinos? Heck, Marcus Clarke does better playing one day a week.
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Quote: billryanQuote: darkozQuote: billryanJealous? Perhaps. I'd say concerned with the truth, but whatever works for you.
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Now you say you make mid-six figures. You've already lost one zero off your income in a flash.
I'm reminded of a scene in That Girl. Marla did an acting job and said it was her first five-figure paycheck. - $582.57.
link to original post
Are you mathematically dense?
$20,000 x 52 weeks is $1,040,000.
Since I have always stated that I don't make $20,000 every week (and I didn't mean taking off work just two weeks of the year) how did I lose a zero?
You know what. I don't think your problem is with math. It's reading comprehension. If I say not every week you can't comprehend what that means
I feel sad for you but hey that's why I make mid six figures and you sell comics for a few pennies profit.
You claimed you made $20,000 a week. Then you walked it back to some weeks.
$20,000 a week is a seven figure income. Now you say mid-six figures. You are the one who dropped the extra zero. No one else.
Am I supposed to be impressed you claim to make six figures a year hustling casinos? Heck, Marcus Clarke does better playing one day a week.
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If you believe Marcus Clarke makes more in one day playing negative expectations Baccarat using system play then nuff said about your search for truthfulness.
Quote: billryanI find MC's tales to be every bit as believable as yours.
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Which says a lot more about you than me.
And then what if he has nothing for them for 3 or 4 days and then sends them out again on a similar play? This is where $400 an hour becomes misleading. So someone unsuspecting, like MrV reads, peaks his interest and says hell, I could spare 3 or 4 hours a week to make $1200-$1500.
And I am not picking on Darkoz,this happens with all kinds of advantage play. It happens with blackjack and card counters, where the standard is to say what EV is for 100 rounds played and call that an hour. Well guess what, if you are not playing heads up or at most one other player, you are not getting 100 rounds per hour...especially now with all the side bets. So if it takes a player an hour and a half to 2 hours to get 100 rounds, is it fair to use the 100 rounds per hour and say I make XXX an hour? And in this day and age when blackjack players play a lot of hit and run, moving around from table to table, casino to casino you have to count that time.
For this reason, when talking about results, I say what my EV is per round or what I have averaged per year for a number of years.
I think most people understand that APing isn't like a traditional 40 hour a week job, Some grinder type AP's play 20, 30, even 40 hours. Others play or average as few as 5. But you have to count everything that goes into that, travel time, prep, scouting. You just can't count that hour at the table or machine, when it took 4 hours total to get that hour of play in.
I am not saying Darkoz is being intentionally misleading, but I don't think being as clear as he should be.
There’s no reason to think these are full time employees. And it isn’t misleading to say I picked up a side gig for a couple hours a week that pays about $400 per hour. I don’t know how else you would say it in normal, straightforward conversation.
Quote: kewljHere is where the problem lies. Darkoz says his players make $400 and hour....sometimes, but not every hour. So let's say he sends someone on a play. They travel and hour to get there. Have to spend an hour scouting or waiting for a machine. Play an hour. And drive an hour home. For which they are paid $400. Is that $400 an hour? Or is that $100 an hour (4 hours for $400)?
And then what if he has nothing for them for 3 or 4 days and then sends them out again on a similar play? This is where $400 an hour becomes misleading. So someone unsuspecting, like MrV reads, peaks his interest and says hell, I could spare 3 or 4 hours a week to make $1200-$1500.
And I am not picking on Darkoz,this happens with all kinds of advantage play. It happens with blackjack and card counters, where the standard is to say what EV is for 100 rounds played and call that an hour. Well guess what, if you are not playing heads up or at most one other player, you are not getting 100 rounds per hour...especially now with all the side bets. So if it takes a player an hour and a half to 2 hours to get 100 rounds, is it fair to use the 100 rounds per hour and say I make XXX an hour? And in this day and age when blackjack players play a lot of hit and run, moving around from table to table, casino to casino you have to count that time.
For this reason, when talking about results, I say what my EV is per round or what I have averaged per year for a number of years.
I think most people understand that APing isn't like a traditional 40 hour a week job, Some grinder type AP's play 20, 30, even 40 hours. Others play or average as few as 5. But you have to count everything that goes into that, travel time, prep, scouting. You just can't count that hour at the table or machine, when it took 4 hours total to get that hour of play in.
I am not saying Darkoz is being intentionally misleading, but I don't think being as clear as he should be.
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I agree with most of what you say but I really don't get the AP ideal of factoring in travel time. No other job I am aware of does that.
McDonald's employees make $10 an hour? But takes them an hour each direction to get to their job. So they make less than $10 an hour now because they actually spend 10 hours a day working (8 hours at the job and two hours traveling)?
I have a pinball repair man who comes for my machines at my house. He gets paid $150 an hour but lives an hour away. He doesn't charge me $450 for a visit because he feels he should be paid for traveling to and from work. And I am certain he doesn't tell his friends that for me he only gets paid $50 an hour after traveling time.
As for waiting for a machine or a play it's rare in my line of AP. My business is using Freeplay from players cards. Good at most slot machines. For my pickups, it's usually an in and out affair.
Different offers for different properties. Sometimes there comes a week where there are no offers.
That's the week I don't make $20,000!
Since offers are usually sent out on monthly schedules my workers usually know days they need to work for an entire month.
And of course sometimes there are other forces. For example I have had an entire operation shut down by a casino because they caught on and turned off the offers from the cards. It takes a few months to set up cards in a different location.
That's more weeks I am not making $20,000 a week.
And when Covid shut down the casinos there was another five months I didn't make $20,000 a week.
Quote: darkozQuote: kewljHere is where the problem lies. Darkoz says his players make $400 and hour....sometimes, but not every hour. So let's say he sends someone on a play. They travel and hour to get there. Have to spend an hour scouting or waiting for a machine. Play an hour. And drive an hour home. For which they are paid $400. Is that $400 an hour? Or is that $100 an hour (4 hours for $400)?
And then what if he has nothing for them for 3 or 4 days and then sends them out again on a similar play? This is where $400 an hour becomes misleading. So someone unsuspecting, like MrV reads, peaks his interest and says hell, I could spare 3 or 4 hours a week to make $1200-$1500.
And I am not picking on Darkoz,this happens with all kinds of advantage play. It happens with blackjack and card counters, where the standard is to say what EV is for 100 rounds played and call that an hour. Well guess what, if you are not playing heads up or at most one other player, you are not getting 100 rounds per hour...especially now with all the side bets. So if it takes a player an hour and a half to 2 hours to get 100 rounds, is it fair to use the 100 rounds per hour and say I make XXX an hour? And in this day and age when blackjack players play a lot of hit and run, moving around from table to table, casino to casino you have to count that time.
For this reason, when talking about results, I say what my EV is per round or what I have averaged per year for a number of years.
I think most people understand that APing isn't like a traditional 40 hour a week job, Some grinder type AP's play 20, 30, even 40 hours. Others play or average as few as 5. But you have to count everything that goes into that, travel time, prep, scouting. You just can't count that hour at the table or machine, when it took 4 hours total to get that hour of play in.
I am not saying Darkoz is being intentionally misleading, but I don't think being as clear as he should be.
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I agree with most of what you say but I really don't get the AP ideal of factoring in travel time. No other job I am aware of does that.
McDonald's employees make $10 an hour? But takes them an hour each direction to get to their job. So they make less than $10 an hour now because they actually spend 10 hours a day working (8 hours at the job and two hours traveling)?
I have a pinball repair man who comes for my machines at my house. He gets paid $150 an hour but lives an hour away. He doesn't charge me $450 for a visit because he feels he should be paid for traveling to and from work. And I am certain he doesn't tell his friends that for me he only gets paid $50 an hour after traveling time.
As for waiting for a machine or a play it's rare in my line of AP. My business is using Freeplay from players cards. Good at most slot machines. For my pickups, it's usually an in and out affair.
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APing is different than all other "job's". YOU know that. I don't know why you are fighting me.
I try to average between 250-300 rounds of blackjack for each day that I play. Now the standard for blackjack is to call 100 rounds of play an hour. This goes back to Stanford Wong's book, "Professional Blackjack", where he established "benchmarks" to make comparisons, apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, and 100 rounds in an hour was one of them. But like I said, if you play a game with 2 other players or more you are not getting 100 hours today, with all the side bets.
So somedays I may get a couple heads up games and hit 250 rounds in (2) 30-minute sessions. Another day it may take me 5 hours and 5-6 casinos (plus travel time between) to get 250 rounds. Add in 45 minutes for lunch.
So let's say my EV is $1 a round just for convenience and ease. (it is more than that an varies by game) so if I get my 250 rounds in 2 30-minute sessions, I could say I make $250/hour. But on the day that it took 5 hours, plus lunch break, I spent 5 hours getting that $250 in EV or $50 an hour. So which is fair?
Now I am sure my blackjack examples are more extreme than your machine play, but there is other time, travel BEWTEEN games, waiting for a game, ect. You just can't count the time sitting at the machine. I think that is misleading. And I think we just saw an example of someone who WAS mislead in MrV. I am not saying you are scamming anyone or anything, but be a little more honest with what is happening. You could say something like "I send someone out on a play that takes and hour and will use 3 hours of their time and they make $400".
Quote: kewljQuote: darkozQuote: kewljHere is where the problem lies. Darkoz says his players make $400 and hour....sometimes, but not every hour. So let's say he sends someone on a play. They travel and hour to get there. Have to spend an hour scouting or waiting for a machine. Play an hour. And drive an hour home. For which they are paid $400. Is that $400 an hour? Or is that $100 an hour (4 hours for $400)?
And then what if he has nothing for them for 3 or 4 days and then sends them out again on a similar play? This is where $400 an hour becomes misleading. So someone unsuspecting, like MrV reads, peaks his interest and says hell, I could spare 3 or 4 hours a week to make $1200-$1500.
And I am not picking on Darkoz,this happens with all kinds of advantage play. It happens with blackjack and card counters, where the standard is to say what EV is for 100 rounds played and call that an hour. Well guess what, if you are not playing heads up or at most one other player, you are not getting 100 rounds per hour...especially now with all the side bets. So if it takes a player an hour and a half to 2 hours to get 100 rounds, is it fair to use the 100 rounds per hour and say I make XXX an hour? And in this day and age when blackjack players play a lot of hit and run, moving around from table to table, casino to casino you have to count that time.
For this reason, when talking about results, I say what my EV is per round or what I have averaged per year for a number of years.
I think most people understand that APing isn't like a traditional 40 hour a week job, Some grinder type AP's play 20, 30, even 40 hours. Others play or average as few as 5. But you have to count everything that goes into that, travel time, prep, scouting. You just can't count that hour at the table or machine, when it took 4 hours total to get that hour of play in.
I am not saying Darkoz is being intentionally misleading, but I don't think being as clear as he should be.
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I agree with most of what you say but I really don't get the AP ideal of factoring in travel time. No other job I am aware of does that.
McDonald's employees make $10 an hour? But takes them an hour each direction to get to their job. So they make less than $10 an hour now because they actually spend 10 hours a day working (8 hours at the job and two hours traveling)?
I have a pinball repair man who comes for my machines at my house. He gets paid $150 an hour but lives an hour away. He doesn't charge me $450 for a visit because he feels he should be paid for traveling to and from work. And I am certain he doesn't tell his friends that for me he only gets paid $50 an hour after traveling time.
As for waiting for a machine or a play it's rare in my line of AP. My business is using Freeplay from players cards. Good at most slot machines. For my pickups, it's usually an in and out affair.
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APing is different than all other "job's". YOU know that. I don't know why you are fighting me.
I try to average between 250-300 rounds of blackjack for each day that I play. Now the standard for blackjack is to call 100 rounds of play an hour. This goes back to Stanford Wong's book, "Professional Blackjack", where he established "benchmarks" to make comparisons, apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, and 100 rounds in an hour was one of them. But like I said, if you play a game with 2 other players or more you are not getting 100 hours today, with all the side bets.
So somedays I may get a couple heads up games and hit 250 rounds in (2) 30-minute sessions. Another day it may take me 5 hours and 5-6 casinos (plus travel time between) to get 250 rounds. Add in 45 minutes for lunch.
So let's say my EV is $1 a round just for convenience and ease. (it is more than that an varies by game) so if I get my 250 rounds in 2 30-minute sessions, I could say I make $250/hour. But on the day that it took 5 hours, plus lunch break, I spent 5 hours getting that $250 in EV or $50 an hour. So which is fair?
Now I am sure my blackjack examples are more extreme than your machine play, but there is other time, travel BEWTEEN games, waiting for a game, ect. You just can't count the time sitting at the machine. I think that is misleading. And I think we just saw an example of someone who WAS mislead in MrV. I am not saying you are scamming anyone or anything, but be a little more honest with what is happening. You could say something like "I send someone out on a play that takes and hour and will use 3 hours of their time and they make $400".
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I'm sorry but I just don't see why AP is different when making calculation of hours.
If scouting time is what you are referring to versus playing time, then yes I agree but then scouting time would be considered work time in any other field as well.
I used to work in the motion picture business. Sometimes you would need to scout for a location to shoot a scene. Trust me if I scouted for three hours I got paid for that.
Freeplay machine play is not so oriented.
I tell a worker to go to the casino on Wednesday with twenty players cards each with $400 freeplay. Gamble at max (usually $5 no more per spin) until the freeplay is turned into cash, cash out bring me my money.
After a few visits workers know what machines are good to play and they have their favorites.
What is there to scout? They arrive, they play, they leave.
I have one worker who lives an hour from her designated pickup casino. That casino is near to a hair stylist she likes. So she travels to get her hair done, then works for me, she may pickup some shopping at a local Kmart and then goes home. When they travel, they are on their own time and I really don't see why that's misleading.
What about a boxer, who gets paid 50 million for a fight that last 2 rounds? That would be 6 minutes. is it fair to say he makes 500 million and hour.
Now, you may very well have players that make $400 for an hour. But if they are not working somewhat regularly and those hour opportunities are infrequent, just saying $400 and hour is misleading. Someone reads $400 an hour and they are thinking I can spare a few hours a week and make a few thousand. Is that really what you are trying to convey?
Bottom line, Advantage play, both table play and machines is a very unique way to make money. People tend to think in terms of more traditional occupations, and you could try a little harder to make it clear what players REALLY make.
Quote: mcallister3200Or, on the other hand, just not talk so much about it.
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But how else does one establish credibility here?
Quote: mcallister3200Or, on the other hand, just not talk so much about it.
What would you have him do, just sit around drinking tea out of the Boston Harbor? :)
He can talk about it. I encourage and enjoy reading other AP's experiences, as much as anyone can share. I even have no problem with the money aspect of it. I obviously share what kind of money I make (average), much to the dismay of some, because I don't think I can share my experiences as a mid level type card counter without sharing what kind of money we are talking about.
But you have to make that clear, not mislead by cherry picking. I ended my year on a very specific lucrative play of counting a side bet, that my brother and I made 91k in 16 days before it was shutdown. That is not normal. It is not the normal traditional card counting that I do and I have never made 45k in 16 days before. So I would never make a statement that I make 45k in half a month's play. That would be misleading.
I don't doubt that darkoz may have players that make $400 some hours. But to say $400 an hour implies much more regular basis than I believe it is.
He had a past statement that is controversial as well. $20,000 a week, I believe. While it is possible, they have had lucrative plays that the players made $20k in a week, I don't for a second believe that is a regular thing. You read 20k a week and I immediately think a million a year (52 weeks a year). Is there really anybody working for darkoz that has made a million dollars a year?
Quote: kewljQuote: mcallister3200Or, on the other hand, just not talk so much about it.
What would you have him do, just sit around drinking tea out of the Boston Harbor? :)
He can talk about it. I encourage and enjoy reading other AP's experiences, as much as anyone can share. I even have no problem with the money aspect of it. I obviously share what kind of money I make (average), much to the dismay of some, because I don't think I can share my experiences as a mid level type card counter without sharing what kind of money we are talking about.
But you have to make that clear, not mislead by cherry picking. I ended my year on a very specific lucrative play of counting a side bet, that my brother and I made 91k in 16 days before it was shutdown. That is not normal. It is not the normal traditional card counting that I do and I have never made 45k in 16 days before. So I would never make a statement that I make 45k in half a month's play. That would be misleading.
I don't doubt that darkoz may have players that make $400 some hours. But to say $400 an hour implies much more regular basis than I believe it is.
he had a past statement that is controversial as well. $20,000 a week, I believe. While it is possible, they have had lucrative plays that the players made $20k in a week, I don't for a second believe that is a regular thing. You read 20k a week and I immediately think a million a year (52 weeks a year). Is there really anybody working for darkoz that has made a million dollars a year?
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There is simply no valid purpose to it other than to stroke owns own ego.
Quote: kewljOk, let me try it this way. Tom Brady makes 26 million dollars a year. He plays 17 games (this year) that last 3 hours for which he is on the field less than half that time, accounting for halftime. So let's say an hour and a half a game or 25.5 hours for the season. Is it fair to say he makes a million dollars an hour? Or do you have to add in all the time spent practicing, pre-season, even off-season?
What about a boxer, who gets paid 50 million for a fight that last 2 rounds? That would be 6 minutes. is it fair to say he makes 500 million and hour.
Now, you may very well have players that make $400 for an hour. But if they are not working somewhat regularly and those hour opportunities are infrequent, just saying $400 and hour is misleading. Someone reads $400 an hour and they are thinking I can spare a few hours a week and make a few thousand. Is that really what you are trying to convey?
Bottom line, Advantage play, both table play and machines is a very unique way to make money. People tend to think in terms of more traditional occupations, and you could try a little harder to make it clear what players REALLY make.
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You really are stretching to compare my AP with boxers and football players which require long perhaps lifetime preparation.
Here is an example of what to expect from me when you are just starting to work for me. There will be more to come later if you graduate to further operations (not an easy task as it involves me trusting you).
Go to a certain Casino. Stand on line at players sign up. Get me a casino card. Two copies please in case one gets damaged. Hand me copies with pins.
Wait for me to check they work at kiosk.
You get paid $400. And the actual work probably took less than fifteen minutes much less an hour.
Now if you want to say that person needed to get a proper ID at the DOV and needed to learn how to follow instructions in grade school and had to learn to speak proper English in the first grade for me to give him instructions so he didn't really make $400 in less than an hour when he got me those players cards go right ahead.
They are not going to track a suspected card counter on camera back to the time they came in and then go through the scanner to get the persons information, unless they really pushed the boundaries. Doing that would be a lot of work, Stevens is generally player friendly, and once a card counter has left the building, they generally just don't care about them too much.
Quote: kewlj
So let's say my EV is $1 a round just for convenience and ease. (it is more than that an varies by game) so if I get my 250 rounds in 2 30-minute sessions, I could say I make $250/hour. But on the day that it took 5 hours, plus lunch break, I spent 5 hours getting that $250 in EV or $50 an hour. So which is fair?
The most "fair" thing would be for you to understand why you even care to express and discuss your income? Then if there is any question on what is most "fair", provide more information, rather than trying to guess. Why spend all this energy trying to decide how to reduce income into one rate of time, instead of just using multiple rates? What would be so hard about saying "blackjack earnings average $125 per hour and $250 per day; and total lifetime earnings are $425,000". Seems a lot easier and a lot better than "Earnings could be anywhere between $50 and $250 per hour depending on what is considered an hour of work"
i would have assumed travel time to/from the job doesnt count.Quote: kewljHere is where the problem lies. Darkoz says his players make $400 and hour....sometimes, but not every hour.
So let's say he sends someone on a play. They travel and hour to get there. Have to spend an hour scouting or waiting for a machine. Play an hour. And drive an hour home. For which they are paid $400. Is that $400 an hour? Or is that $100 an hour (4 hours for $400)?
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i know i dont count my time to/from work when i calculate my hourly pay.
but i would count time scouting or wait time for the machine since you are now on the 'jobsite'.
ok, i get your point.Quote: kewljI don't doubt that darkoz may have players that make $400 some hours. But to say $400 an hour implies much more regular basis than I believe it is.
He had a past statement that is controversial as well. $20,000 a week, I believe. While it is possible, they have had lucrative plays that the players made $20k in a week, I don't for a second believe that is a regular thing. You read 20k a week and I immediately think a million a year (52 weeks a year). Is there really anybody working for darkoz that has made a million dollars a year?
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You think the employee $400/hr and his own $20k/week is more the exception than the norm.
I believe the $400/hr rate for his employees is the norm based on this post:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/trip-reports/36763-having-to-show-id-at-check-in/#post834809
i am assuming if only working a short time per week and you don't count travel time to/from jobsite, which DarkOz has said for both.
Why don't you believe him?
As for his $20k/wk, I didn't take it as a regular thing since he stated that he made mid-6 figures last year.
Doing the math, if he made $20k/wk a majority of the time then he made very little per week for the other 25 weeks of the year.
And since he said his main income is weekly freeplay, i doubt he makes very little for most of those 25weeks thus he can't be making $20k/wk a majority of the time.
Quote: 100xOddsi would have assumed travel time to/from the job doesnt count.
i know i dont count my time to/from work when i calculate my hourly pay.
but i would count time scouting or wait time for the machine since you are now on the 'jobsite'.
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In the non-gambling world, sometimes travel time to the site is billed, sometimes to and from is billed, sometimes travel is not billed.
I'm not sure of the scheduling requirements (I may have missed it), but if it's just "show up at your convenience before (date) and do the thing", I think that billing for travel time would not be appropriate.
I know that 3 lifetimes ago, we billed for travel time and expense on rush jobs, but rolled the travel into the job rate if we had some reasonable flexibility.
