AC Mini Trip

Hi everyone, I'm a long time lurker, but this is my first post. Since I'm getting more serious about my blackjack playing I figured it was time. I've played basic strategy for years and done fairly well, but have now started to up my game, which I'm learning is not as easy as mastering BS.

When we go to AC our favorite place to stay is the Tropicana. We don't normally go to AC this time of year but when they offered us a free room for 2 nights we just couldn't resist a pre-Christmas getaway. We headed down Monday morning and arrived about noon. We got a nice corner room in the Havana tower with a great view of the ocean, sadly it was a bit too cold and windy to enjoy any beach going (or boardwalk going for that matter).

I'm a fairly low roller and prefer the $10 tables which means BJ pays 3:2, 8 decks, H17, DAS, No RSA, Split up to 4 hands. Not great rules, but this is AC. After a nice lunch at "A Dam Good Sports Bar" (1/2 off coupon) we headed to the casino. Before any BJ I wanted to see if Mission146's Slot play was "in play". See this thread for details. The play works nicely, but only came up a few times during our 2 day stay. We were up $5.00 though, which including accidentally spinning (and losing) when I didn't want to. All and all a nice diversion to and from the BJ tables with little or no down side.

First session:
Played at a newly felted table with the BUST IT side bet. I never play the side bets, but this one is especially annoying and disruptive. This side game is new at the Trop and the dealers are clearly not yet entirely comfortable with it. Meaning the game loses its flow. Ugghhh. The count was in my favor so I had a fairly large bet out and lost a double and a couple of other hands. Spent the rest of the session fighting my way back and finally left up $20.

Second Session:
Picked the "Dealer Match" table this time. I find this side bet nice as it smoothly slows the game down a bit to allow me to catch my breath as it were... Anyway, the count went up quickly and I was soon up $100 which I actually took off the table. Things leveled out after that and I ended the session just up that $100. An interesting thing occurred mid way in the session. The count on the current shoe was neutral and a young guy came over and bought in for $200 asking for greens. I think to myself, that's not a lot of chips, and then he makes matters worse by betting 50! He wins the first bet, plays 50 again, gets a 6 and 4, doubles, pulls a J, and wins. Plays one more hand (loses) and leaves up $100! The Pit didn't seem to like this at all and proceeded to take the cards out of the discard tray and count them. When he gets done he shrugs saying something like, "No, he didn't jump in at a good count"...
(trip up $120)

We had a nice, but slow, dinner at Ri Ra's, an Irish Pub place right in the Trop. We like this place and enjoyed a nice 2 course meal. We both had the Guinness Stew, yum!, but unlike other times we've been there the service left a little something to be desired. We eventually actually walked our check up to the front so we could make it to the show on time.

We headed to the Tropicana's Christmas Spectacular (also comped as part of our stay). It was a pretty good show, a couple of the singers were quite good and the dancing was fun. The place as just about filled to capacity on a Monday night. The afternoon show also seemed to bring a good number of people in.

Third Session:
I used to be a very flat better just playing BS, now with good counts I up my bet (of course). I'm not at all used to this with real money and I find that makes keeping the count harder. Not sure why, its money I can afford to lose and I know I'm betting with an advantage, yet there is something about putting out bets bigger than my normal $10 or $20 that shakes me. I guess I need more practice in real situations. Of course losing a big bet double wasn't helping my confidence any! However, it was a fun table with one player playing 2 hands and making 5 dollar match the dealer bets on every hand. He would point out when others weren't also making the bet and they had matches. He never seemed to notice all the times we didn't match though! Ended the session down $75
(trip up $45)

Tuesday
Forth Session:
Ughh - Here is where things went bad. Even with a neutral and good count I quickly lost my initial buy-in and bought some more chips. The dealer was making everything! Sadly I ended up losing $200 that session.
(trip down $155)

Time for a lunch break at Chickie's and Pete's. We had a nice table by the window overlooking the boardwalk and ocean. Service and food was both good. Most of the meal was paid for on comp dollars (my wife plays slots!). She got a free bracelet too!

Fifth Session:
Sat at table with no side game, yes they still offer those, with only one other player. He was quite drunk, but a fun happy drunk. His antics certainly made it harder to concentrate on the count. He told me he was having a horrible blackjack day but was up 7 or 8 hundred on Roulette. Well, his bad blackjack day continued. He had one big win where he split 8's to 4 hands with 3 doubles and won them all. But he lost all that and more before he was done. Sigh... It wasn't all his fault, the dealer got very hot making 21 4 out of 5 hands with a 20 on the other! Ended the session down $125
(trip down $280)

We thought about trying the buffet for dinner, but at $27.95 it just didn't seem cost effective. In hindsight, I should have asked the Pit for a comp (heck I was down almost $300 at that point) and the worse they could say is no. So we wandered around a bit and ended up that the "A Dam Good Sports Bar" again (1/2 off again). The food is always pretty good there.

Sixth Session:
Started this session at the BUST IT table. When the relief dealer came in she was clearly not thinking straight and was having trouble paying/collecting the BUST IT bets. It made the game very unenjoyable for me so when a spot opened up on the table next door (Match the dealer), I moved over there. It was still a troubling set where I lost my initial buy in and bought more chips. Fortunately the cards moved to my favor and ended up even for this fairly long session. Of note was the drunk girl playing "some game" with her green chips on 2 spots. The dealer warned her not to spill her drink, but sure enough it soon went on the table. I say "some game" because I'm not sure she was playing BJ, but she was having fun but lost most all of her chips.
(trip down $280)

Seventh Session:
Another session with no side bets. The dealer up card was a 10 or A on 9 of the first 10 hands, yikes, he was flipping over Ts as well. I was down a quick $50, without the count moving much. When that shoe was over I had the cut card, so gave it to a young woman who was not playing but just sitting with her boyfriend. She seemed to enjoy that and this shoe as much better. I wonder if that's an AP play? :-) That couple leaves and this brings another couple with a guy who is teaching his girlfriend how to play. Not sure what he is teaching her as his play is less than spectacular, but they were having a good time, including another drink on the table --- ooopsss 2 in one day! It was a fun table with a dealer who at first seemed a little stiff, but loosened up as we joked and laughed. Again, I found it hard to keep the count with this much joking around, I need to practice on that.
(trip down $180)

Eigth (and final) Session:
We like to wait until after the morning commute to start our 3 hour drive home so after a quick croissant and coffee from Starbucks it was off to the tables for one more quickie! And a quickie it was! There was 5 or 6 dealers standing at their tables with absolutely no one playing (this was about 8:00AM). I picked one (not the BUST IT table) and sat down. The dealer shuffled, I lost the first hand, then went on a role getting lots of great cards, the count was neutral to going bad, but that meant lost of high cards were coming out and within 10 minutes I was up $100. Time to leave, as those low cards had to be coming soon.
(trip down $80 - final)

The Tropicana is very nice though they could use some more "mid-level" restaurants. They have several up scale, and lots of "bar food" but nothing much in between. We often walk the boardwalk to some other places to eat, but the weather this time of year sort of prohibited that. We don't normally go this time of year. But it was still a good trip.

The Christmas show certainly brings people in to the casino. A couple of hours prior to the shows (3:30 and 7PM) the floor is bustling with people and players. Of course after the show as well. Monday was really quite packed with 8 $10 tables open and mostly full. There are 4 $25 tables which were also fairly busy. Tuesday was a little less crowded, though the weather north of AC may have had some negative affect on that. We will certainly return again but will wait until warmer weather so we can enjoy other activities than just those at the Tropicana.

Quote: bj4fun

Third Session:
I used to be a very flat better just playing BS, now with good counts I up my bet (of course). I'm not at all used to this with real money and I find that makes keeping the count harder. Not sure why, its money I can afford to lose and I know I'm betting with an advantage, yet there is something about putting out bets bigger than my normal $10 or $20 that shakes me. I guess I need more practice in real situations.

It was the same for me when I started out, and I still sweat sometimes with a big bet out there. Practice at home is important, but as you have figured out, "there ain't nothing like the real thing." The best way to go, IMO, is to up your stakes gradually, as you get comfortable. When I started counting, a $50 max bet would throw me for a loop and I'd lose the count I was so nervous. Now a hundred bucks is nothing, but I still cross my "comfort zone" once more than $300 gets on the felt. You just keep working up your stakes as you get comfortable with the lower stakes.

Quote: bj4fun

Again, I found it hard to keep the count with this much joking around, I need to practice on that.

When I practice at home, I ask my girlfriend to keep talking with me, I turn the TV on, listen to a podcast, etc. Anything you can do to up the distraction level while you practice is good.

Welcome to the wonderful world of hobbyist low-level card counting :)

Welcome, fellow blackjack player. You've done fairly well with basic strategy. What is your definition of fairly well? What count are you using? I have to ask, do you know the basic strategy for H17 vs S17?

You are playing a game that is mediocre at best and I am being generous with that description. You didn't mention that there is no surrender and that puts the house edge at 0.59109%. I'll refrain from giving you my bankroll lecture for now but you are counting so you need a counter's bankroll. You also need a large betting spread and must avoid playing in negative counts.

AC is known for counting down the discards but doing it this quickly sounds strange. Was something else going on? They like to use intimidation and I've seen that and worse many times. Was it the floor or the pit boss?

RiRa makes nice shepherd's pie. And Guiness tastes great.

Basic strategy for H17 is to not play ;-)

Kidding... (kind of)

Quote: AcesAndEights

It was the same for me when I started out, and I still sweat sometimes with a big bet out there. Practice at home is important, but as you have figured out, "there ain't nothing like the real thing." The best way to go, IMO, is to up your stakes gradually, as you get comfortable. When I started counting, a $50 max bet would throw me for a loop and I'd lose the count I was so nervous. Now a hundred bucks is nothing, but I still cross my "comfort zone" once more than $300 gets on the felt. You just keep working up your stakes as you get comfortable with the lower stakes.

Yeah I really didn't expect that but it definitely made a difference. But even by the 2nd day it was getting more "familiar" I guess.

Quote: 1BB

Welcome, fellow blackjack player. You've done fairly well with basic strategy. What is your definition of fairly well? What count are you using? I have to ask, do you know the basic strategy for H17 vs S17?

You are playing a game that is mediocre at best and I am being generous with that description. You didn't mention that there is no surrender and that puts the house edge at 0.59109%. I'll refrain from giving you my bankroll lecture for now but you are counting so you need a counter's bankroll. You also need a large betting spread and must avoid playing in negative counts.

AC is known for counting down the discards but doing it this quickly sounds strange. Was something else going on? They like to use intimidation and I've seen that and worse many times. Was it the floor or the pit boss?

Thanks 1BB - By fairly well I mean that I would often come home a winner and not have any huge losses. But frankly mostly flat betting was getting boring. And not know if the time was right to press a bet or not seemed to be against my conservative nature. Now even knowing the time is right increasing my bets may be too exciting :-) I'm starting with KO. I dabbled with Hi/Lo but found the conversions to difficult. Yes I know the differences between H17 and S17 BS.

Yes, sadly there is no surrender, with the quality of play I saw this week, AC could offer surrender and increase their profits! I know AC is not the greatest game around and PA is close with better rules, but for a mini-vacation my wife likes AC.

I didn't notice anything else going on, and at least he confirmed my count that nothing special was going on right then. I think the guy just got lucky, but it did seems strange to by in for only $200 and then bet $50 a hand! Certainly not a big enough bankroll there. I believe it was the floor and not the pit boss. On a previous trip, just flat betting, I sat down mid shoe and play 7 hands, lost the first won the next 6 and walked away up $100. I wonder if they counted those cards...

Great first post bj4fun....what you are going through in trying to up your game from recreational BS player to an AP counter, is what I've been trying to do the last 9-10 years. I had all the same issues you are experiencing. I could count great at home even with the TV on and other distractions. But in the casino I'd lose the count all the time...overly chatty dealers and/or other players were my big weakness. Still, with time I got better, and now it's almost automatic. I'm sure you do this already, but learn to cancel the high and low cards so a hand with say a 10,4... Is a nothing and you move on. It's counting 101 stuff...but it really makes a basic count easier.

One other thing as a beginning counter. You didn't say what count you are using, but I ignored the True Count at first and just concentrated on keeping a straight Hi-Lo count number. Obviously, I paid attention to the cards remaining in general terms. So a +15 at the beginning of a shoe is not as meaningful as a +15 with one deck to go before the cut card. But I never converted it to a TC number. It was just too hard for me in real life, and the extra EV just isin't worth it for a new counter. You gotta walk before you can run. Good Luck and keep at it. I'm still in AC a lot maybe we'll catch up sometime.

Quote: vendman1

Great first post bj4fun....what you are going through in trying to up your game from recreational BS player to an AP counter, is what I've been trying to do the last 9-10 years. I had all the same issues you are experiencing. I could count great at home even with the TV on and other distractions. But in the casino I'd lose the count all the time...overly chatty dealers and/or other players were my big weakness. Still, with time I got better, and now it's almost automatic. I'm sure you do this already, but learn to cancel the high and low cards so a hand with say a 10,4... Is a nothing and you move on. It's counting 101 stuff...but it really makes a basic count easier.

One other thing as a beginning counter. You didn't say what count you are using, but I ignored the True Count at first and just concentrated on keeping a straight Hi-Lo count number. Obviously, I paid attention to the cards remaining in general terms. So a +15 at the beginning of a shoe is not as meaningful as a +15 with one deck to go before the cut card. But I never converted it to a TC number. It was just too hard for me in real life, and the extra EV just isin't worth it for a new counter. You gotta walk before you can run. Good Luck and keep at it. I'm still in AC a lot maybe we'll catch up sometime.

I have been experiencing this as well. I just started counting 60 days ago so I am a complete newb but this is what I find happening to me.

me to myself, "Sweet, the count is +15, lets go 6x my bet."
"dealt 20 vs 6. EXCELLENT, dealer flips over 5. Crap count is high here comes a 10. Draws a 7 and I win. Happy dance time."

5 seconds later, "oh shit, what is the count now. :-("

Quote: bj4fun

Thanks 1BB - By fairly well I mean that I would often come home a winner and not have any huge losses. But frankly mostly flat betting was getting boring. And not know if the time was right to press a bet or not seemed to be against my conservative nature. Now even knowing the time is right increasing my bets may be too exciting :-) I'm starting with KO. I dabbled with Hi/Lo but found the conversions to difficult. Yes I know the differences between H17 and S17 BS.

Yes, sadly there is no surrender, with the quality of play I saw this week, AC could offer surrender and increase their profits! I know AC is not the greatest game around and PA is close with better rules, but for a mini-vacation my wife likes AC.

I didn't notice anything else going on, and at least he confirmed my count that nothing special was going on right then. I think the guy just got lucky, but it did seems strange to by in for only $200 and then bet $50 a hand! Certainly not a big enough bankroll there. I believe it was the floor and not the pit boss. On a previous trip, just flat betting, I sat down mid shoe and play 7 hands, lost the first won the next 6 and walked away up $100. I wonder if they counted those cards...

Flat betting may be boring but that's what we have to do, especially in shoe games, and you can lose quite a few "waiting bets" when the count hovers around zero. Worse than that, you can easily lose several max bets in a row after that +4 or +5 finally materializes. Boring doesn't sound so bad then.

I don't use unbalanced counts but the experts agree that KO will get you the money. There are different versions for those who want to experiment. In the meantime, lets try to find you some low limit S17 games in Atlantic City.

Resorts has three or four tables at $10 minimums most mornings. The Atlantic Club has an entire pit of six deck at $15 but they don't open until noon and they quickly go to $25 as traffic increases. Sometimes, the Borg's S17 pit will have some $15 tables. I think Trump had a couple at $10 but I haven't checked in a while.

Unfortunately, as you know, there is no surrender in this town.

Similar thing happened to me recently.

I was dealt 5-6 vs 6 and doubled to draw another 5. Dealer flips over a 7, draws a 10 for 23. She takes all my chips! "I won that." "I had 21." I did get paid but I was steaming and lost track.

Color coming in...

Quote: 1BB

Flat betting may be boring but that's what we have to do, especially in shoe games, and you can lose quite a few "waiting bets" when the count hovers around zero. Worse than that, you can easily lose several max bets in a row after that +4 or +5 finally materializes. Boring doesn't sound so bad then.

I don't use unbalanced counts but the experts agree that KO will get you the money. There are different versions for those who want to experiment. In the meantime, lets try to find you some low limit S17 games in Atlantic City.

Resorts has three or four tables at $10 minimums most mornings. The Atlantic Club has an entire pit of six deck at $15 but they don't open until noon and they quickly go to $25 as traffic increases. Sometimes, the Borg's S17 pit will have some $15 tables. I think Trump had a couple at $10 but I haven't checked in a while.

Unfortunately, as you know, there is no surrender in this town.

I can vouch for the Atl. Clubs $15 pit at S17...it's kinda tucked away in a niche right off the main floor. There are usually a mix of $15 and $25 tables at S17...but they will go all $25 tables if the traffic permits. 1BB is right they don't open that area till at least noon sometimes more like 1pm before it actually gets going. I was there right before Thanksgiving. It was a good experience. The Atl Club is making an effort to keep and win new gamblers...very generous comps in my limited experience there. Worth checking out.

Quote: Dicenor33

nice shepherd's pie.

Do you know what "shepherd's pie" really refers to? I used to occasionally sit in with a band with the name "Shepherd's Pie." The Irish singer in the band insisted the band name be changed (it was, to "The Sheps").

Pray tell, I am on tenterhooks awaiting your answer :-)

Quote: chickenman

Pray tell, I am on tenterhooks awaiting your answer :-)

Definitions #4 & #5 are roughly consistent with what our singer explained to us.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shepherd%27s%20pie

Quote: teliot

Do you know what "shepherd's pie" really refers to?

You seem to be saying that the name started out as a joke, but if so it has survived at great irony. A venerable dish now for many a cookbook and menu, unless I am very much mistaken.

We all know what a cow pie is.

Yep, urban dictionary strikes again!

Quote: GWAE

I have been experiencing this as well. I just started counting 60 days ago so I am a complete newb but this is what I find happening to me.

me to myself, "Sweet, the count is +15, lets go 6x my bet."
"dealt 20 vs 6. EXCELLENT, dealer flips over 5. Crap count is high here comes a 10. Draws a 7 and I win. Happy dance time."

5 seconds later, "oh shit, what is the count now. :-("

Yeah - I hear ya - I find myself keeping the "hand count" with big bets out there rather than just the count. Although, I did have a dealer try to take my hand without paying on a 5 card 21!

Quote: 1BB

Flat betting may be boring but that's what we have to do, especially in shoe games, and you can lose quite a few "waiting bets" when the count hovers around zero. Worse than that, you can easily lose several max bets in a row after that +4 or +5 finally materializes. Boring doesn't sound so bad then.

I don't use unbalanced counts but the experts agree that KO will get you the money. There are different versions for those who want to experiment. In the meantime, lets try to find you some low limit S17 games in Atlantic City.

Resorts has three or four tables at $10 minimums most mornings. The Atlantic Club has an entire pit of six deck at $15 but they don't open until noon and they quickly go to $25 as traffic increases. Sometimes, the Borg's S17 pit will have some $15 tables. I think Trump had a couple at $10 but I haven't checked in a while.

Unfortunately, as you know, there is no surrender in this town.

Thanks 1BB, I did want to get down to the Atlantic Club to check it out, but as I said the weather just wasn't cooperating. I suspect my next trip will be to PA or CT where the rules are somewhat better.

By the way I didn't mention penetration in my original post. It varied greatly. All the shoes have the double notches, and some dealers were using the first (back) notch which was quite good (maybe 1.5 decks). Others were somewhere in the middle (about 2 decks) and others weren't even using the notches at all and seemed to be only 65 to 70%, sigh...

Quote: vendman1

I can vouch for the Atl. Clubs $15 pit at S17...it's kinda tucked away in a niche right off the main floor. There are usually a mix of $15 and $25 tables at S17...but they will go all $25 tables if the traffic permits. 1BB is right they don't open that area till at least noon sometimes more like 1pm before it actually gets going. I was there right before Thanksgiving. It was a good experience. The Atl Club is making an effort to keep and win new gamblers...very generous comps in my limited experience there. Worth checking out.

Definitely have to check this out on my next trip.

Quote: bj4fun

Thanks 1BB, I did want to get down to the Atlantic Club to check it out, but as I said the weather just wasn't cooperating. I suspect my next trip will be to PA or CT where the rules are somewhat better.

By the way I didn't mention penetration in my original post. It varied greatly. All the shoes have the double notches, and some dealers were using the first (back) notch which was quite good (maybe 1.5 decks). Others were somewhere in the middle (about 2 decks) and others weren't even using the notches at all and seemed to be only 65 to 70%, sigh...

I'm based in Connecticut and will be able to answer your blackjack questions as well as any you may have about Rhode Island's casino, Twin River. (Ever since someone thought CT was Charles Town I write out Connecticut).