Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 10th, 2012 at 3:14:32 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Someone correct me. I believe there was (is?) some sort of variant of Pai Gow Poker in which the Joker was considered higher than an Ace, such that if you were comparing the Ace and a Joker, the Joker would win. I suppose it's theoretically possible the coding was done in this fashion. A Flush with a Joker, automatically considered to be higher than a flush without a Joker, regardless of how many Aces are in the flush.

Personally, I think Dan is right, and that the coding wasn't done entire correctly, and that the response was generated by someone who doesn't understand Pai Gow Poker.


Thanks, konceptum!
There was an obscure variant called mini-Pai Gow by Gaming Entertainment, where you got dealt six cards, and formed a ONE-card low side. In cases where a single Ace faced the Joker on the one-card low side, the copy was given to the side that had the joker if it were the player, otherwise if aces tied, then that side was ignored, and only the high hand detemined the outcome. See: Good Riddance. (Gaming Entertainment, Inc. is currently on tour with Spinal Tap.)

The Bovada rep who responded either:
1. Did not wish to acknowledge the bug, or;
2. Honestly believes you can have a pair of suited Aces in a flush with the joker, not thoroughly understanding the game;
3. Officially adopted this rule instead of fixing the computer programming bug, as an easy way out. This'll have no real impact on the game house-edge-wise, but simply tolerates a daffy, non-standard glitch instead of spending the time and money in fixing it.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
98Clubs
98Clubs
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January 11th, 2012 at 4:48:52 PM permalink
Quote:

A review of the screenshot that you have submitted to us indicates that the result was a push as both hand ranking is a flush. Your hand is better as you have a Joker within your ranking. As per our game rules a Joker can only be used to complete straights or flushes; otherwise it counts as an ace.



Your initial *win* was considered to a push. Because you had the Joker, you were declared the winner of a tie-breaker to the general rank-of-hand (Flush without regard to sequence) somewhere in Bovada's House Way Rules. Note that the House can therefore invoke this ruling. I would like to know the effect of this ruling, if any, upon the Player.

In other words a Joker-high Flush (or Straight where the Straight is considered Ace-high) wins.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 11th, 2012 at 5:29:22 PM permalink
Ultimately, the house makes all the rules, - even if it is against convention.
The casinos run the casinos, not the players.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 12th, 2012 at 10:26:22 AM permalink
I think that if you had a flush that went Joker - King - Queen - Ten - Nine in spades while the bank had A - K - Q- J - 9 in Clubs, the dealer would win.

My point is that there is no rule stating that you can't have the same card in your hand. The joker is used to complete a straight. That's fine, the joker must represent a card in that straight, obviously. If you have five aces, what suit does the joker represent? In that case, the joker is an Ace of something - you have a duplicate card.

My thought is that in a flush, the Joker is ALWAYS an Ace, even if you have another Ace in your hand. That makes a flush with Ace - Joker stronger than another flush with Ace-King.

Show me the rule where i'm wrong.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 12th, 2012 at 11:04:08 AM permalink
Boy:
In your example, the dealer would lose because the Joker would be used as a Jack of Spades, making a Straight Flush.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 12th, 2012 at 11:48:41 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

I think that if you had a flush that went Joker - King - Queen - Ten - Nine in spades while the bank had A - K - Q- J - 9 in Clubs, the dealer would win.

My point is that there is no rule stating that you can't have the same card in your hand.


Certainly so in multi-deck games. but in single deck games, the convention is that there are no suited pairs.
Quote: boymimbo

The joker is used to complete a straight.


Exactly. Or a flush, or a straight flush, or a fifth ace - of no declared suit.
Quote: boymimbo

That's fine, the joker must represent a card in that straight, obviously.


No it doesn't, - and that's the point, unless it copies or faces off against another hand - as the real card 'x' is that card, and the joker just forms a complete poker element by plugging the highest available slot of the straight or flush. You can't use it to duplicate the ace of a flush if that slot is already used by the real ace. It is just a "plug" to complete the straight or the flush, with the straight or flush being a five-card long poker element, not "card x." If it's at the top of the straight, it is a 9-high straight, for example, and if it is at the top of a flush that doesn't already have the ace, it is an Ace-high flush, for example. It plugs the highest gap available to form that particular poker element. And true - this poker element may indeed copy the needed card elsewhere in the deck, even in hands facing each other - where it simply copies.
Quote: Boymimbo

If you have five aces, what suit does the joker represent? In that case, the joker is an Ace of something - you have a duplicate card.


No, it is an ace of "no declared suit," - and no copy of it can occur, certainly not in a hand of five aces, as it is the fifth ace.

Quote: boymimbo

My thought is that in a flush, the Joker is ALWAYS an Ace, even if you have another Ace in your hand. That makes a flush with Ace - Joker stronger than another flush with Ace-King.


No; it fills the highest available gap in the flush or straight, else it is an ace of no suit, even with other aces when it does NOT otherwise complete a straight or a flush; it cannot overlap another card within the same poker element it is used in. it is not always "an ace" or card 'x' - and that's the point. Players try to argue this and expect to get a hand decision and payment from it, and the floorman tells them "no." The Hand AKQ<joker>10 does NOT beat a natural AKQJ10, not in any casino - except for Bovada.



Quote: Boymimbo

Show me the rule where i'm wrong.


The rule in Pai Gow Poker that it is used "to complete a straight or a flush, else (or) it is an Ace" is everywhere; this is one example. The problem is that the "else" keeps getting dropped here and there in practice - so that it is BOTH a plug for a straight or flush AND simultaneously can be duplicating Ace in the same straight or flush when the ace is already present in that poker element. It cannot; it is the highest available slot of the straight or flush, otherwise it is a fifth ace of NO declared suit. [what, you're going to claim that your five aces also has a suited pair of aces??]
This is like asking, "show me the proof my cat is not an alien from Mars" - as proof that he is.
But the "completes a straight or flush ELSE an ace" declaration means "not both, unless the ace slot IS available."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
charliepatrick
charliepatrick
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January 12th, 2012 at 2:15:31 PM permalink
In UK the rules state--
Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules%20of%20casino%20games%20in%20great%20britain%20-%20june%202011.pdf

13.9 The Joker can be used to complete a Straight, a Flush or a Straight Flush but is otherwise
treated as an Ace.

Thus unless it creates a straight flush, it seems as if you could have two Aces in the suit.
(Interestingly I have only seen Pai Gow tiles and not Pai Gow poker cards in the UK.)
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 12th, 2012 at 3:18:21 PM permalink
I had a thought that may throw a new monkey-wrench into this.

Why is a wheel the second highest straight?

Because when the two hands are the same type, the cards are evaluated individually.

By that reasoning, the Bovada hand ranking was correct. Similarly, I would expect Bovada's scoring to rank ANY straight or flush with the bug higher than a king high straight or flush, and to continue to evaluate all cards individually when against an ace high straight or flush.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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January 12th, 2012 at 4:38:54 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

In UK the rules state--

Quote: http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/rules%20of%20casino%20games%20in%20great%20britain%20-%20june%202011.pdf

13.9 The Joker can be used to complete a Straight, a Flush or a Straight Flush but is otherwise
treated as an Ace.

Thus unless it creates a straight flush, it seems as if you could have two Aces in the suit.
(Interestingly I have only seen Pai Gow tiles and not Pai Gow poker cards in the UK.)


When it pairs with another ace, it turns a singleton ace into a pair of unsuited aces, a pair of aces into unsuited trip aces, etc...
When a part of a flush, it loses it's ace characteristic, unless the ace slot is available in that forming flush, else it plugs the highest available (open) flush spot. you get Ah-Kh-7H-4h plus the joker, the joker takes the slot where the queen of hearts would have been, and it is now an AKQ74 heart flush.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
FinsRule
FinsRule
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January 12th, 2012 at 5:46:02 PM permalink
Quote: konceptum

Someone correct me. I believe there was (is?) some sort of variant of Pai Gow Poker in which the Joker was considered higher than an Ace, such that if you were comparing the Ace and a Joker, the Joker would win. I suppose it's theoretically possible the coding was done in this fashion. A Flush with a Joker, automatically considered to be higher than a flush without a Joker, regardless of how many Aces are in the flush.

Personally, I think Dan is right, and that the coding wasn't done entire correctly, and that the response was generated by someone who doesn't understand Pai Gow Poker.



In mini pai gow, a joker beats an ace in the low hand.

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