Flashing 3CP dealers, bankroll management.

Ok so Im in Vegas for the first time, and discovered two dealers at one venue who flash 100% of the time. I can nearly always identify the exact card, and I can always identify paint/nonpaint. The spread is $5-200 so what should I be buying in with, and how should I be sizing my bets based on that bankroll? I Pm'ed the Wiz who reffered me to the Kelly, but to be honest I am a little fuzzy from last nights party after Sam bust out in 9th, so can anyone break it down into a fairly easy to remember formula.

Thanks

Don't worry about the spread as you'll be flat betting. As for your buy-in, if you're betting $50 Ante, $5,000 should be plenty. How much do you want to make? Set win and loss goals as even with this edge you can take a beating in no time.

Using the following strategy (copied from the WOO 3CP hole card page) you'll have over a 3% advantage if you can identify one card every time.

Here is the strategy if the player can clearly make out the rank of one of the dealer's cards, according to the card exposed.

2 to J: Raise always.
Q: Raise with Q-9-2 or better.
K: Raise with K-9-2 or better.
A: Raise with A-9-2 or better.

If all you know is that the dealer has a face card, then you should raise on Q-J-5 or better.

on the wizard's page, i found 2 quotes that seems contradictory:

"If all you know is the dealer doesn't have a face card, then you should always raise, whether or not you can rule out the card being an ace, which you often can."

"The player should not play at all if he can't distinguish an ace from a 2-10, because the house would have a 2.43% advantage."

Could someone please clarify?

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Quote: andysif

Could someone please clarify?

You are not going to get the same read every hand. Sometimes all you will know is paint or not paint. That is not enough to have an advantage. However, if you get a clean read the vast majority of the time, and paint/non-paint once in a while, then you're still okay. I was trying to advise on how to play when all you know is paint or not paint.

Dan "aka Casino cop" on this thread:
@%$#&* !!

If you mention the casino's name, their management will indeed be contacted. People have an attittude of "wee! Let's cheat a casino and announce it on a gamblers' forum!" Brilliant idea...Industry people monitor this site.

To solve the problem:
1. The Dealer's hand won't be dealt out until all players either play or fold thir hand, to prevent hole carding. A lot of places now do this with the older "high mount" shuffling machines. Hole carding occurs when the dealer moves his hand's packet of cards from a "high-mount" shuffler to his dealing position. The dealer doesn't actually have to remove his packet until after ALL players Play or Fold.

2. Or just install the "flat mount" (low mounted) I-deal machines, which are flush-mounted onto a three-card poker table. The cards are ejected at table-level and are slid flat along the playing table felt to the dealer's position - so there can be no hole-carding. A GOOD and elegant solution on the new machines from Shufflemaster.

Edit: I would also say that getting caught at hole-carding is an outright illegal cheating action in gaming, similar to past-posting on Roulette, or capping and pinching live bets on any table game. This is NOT like card-counting, which while IS technically legal, it allows expulsion from table-game playing or even trasspassing into a casino. Hole-carding is a step up, as is past-posting.

Hole carding, past-posting, or piching or capping bets are bona-fide illegal gaming actions by gaming regulations. As a casino worker, such people when caught are often detained by casino security for arrest and booking, even as a misdemeanor - and the answer of "it was recreational play" is never accepted as a defense, - although it is considered tolerable as such at sites such as this. (Mike, feel free to chime in...)

If you get caught hole-carding on a Blackjack or a poker carnival game in a casino (such as three-Card poker game), and get detained, arrested or booked as a casino cheat, even as a misdemeanor or a "fine payable" offense - both your casino career and your advantage play career are over. Basically - if you have a problem with "regular and clean" gambling without cheating, you may actually be disallowed from that in its entirety, which in my opinion is a good thing.

Quote: Paigowdan

Dan "aka Casino cop" on this thread:
@%$#&* !!

If you mention the casino's name, their management will indeed be contacted. People have an attittude of "wee! Let's cheat a casino and announce it on a gamblers' forum!" Brilliant idea...Industry people monitor this site.

To solve the problem:
1. The Dealer's hand won't be dealt out until all players either play or fold thir hand, to prevent hole carding. A lot of places now do this with the older "high mount" shuffling machines. Hole carding occurs when the dealer moves his hand's packet of cards from a "high-mount" shuffler to his dealing position. The dealer doesn't actually have to remove his packet until after ALL players Play or Fold.

2. Or just install the "flat mount" (low mounted) I-deal machines, which are flush-mounted onto a three-card poker table. The cards are ejected at table-level and are slid flat along the playing table felt to the dealer's position - so there can be no hole-carding. A GOOD and elegant solution on the new machines from Shufflemaster.

3. Train the dealers properly and supervise them diligently.

Quote: TheNightfly

3. Train the dealers properly and supervise them diligently.

They usually get severely reprimanded or fired from their jobs, - along with players getting arrested on misdemeanor charges - all of which are not good things.
I suppose you think that training dealers is easier than training player to follow the rules - or gaming laws - when in a casino? Actually, I agree with that.

Personally, and sometimes, I feel that dealers should be allowed to act much less "in a customer service fashion, " and more in a "Correction's officer/Parole Officer's" function in dealing with many situations at a table game.

Granted, when it comes to casino cheating, we cannot expect every player to act as if he had had some home-training in this ethical regard, especially at a $3 crap table. Certainly not, and I happen to say this as a Las Vegas Crap dealer at a local "house." Quite few are truly saints, and very many are simply table cheats, grinders or shot takers, and a lot of things go on...Hmm....

However, and generally, very few problems - far less really - occur at Three-card Poker or Pai Gow Poker, as there are a few advantage players and cheats on those tables. But hole-carding on 3CP is an occasional casino cheating problem. That's exactly what that is if a player attempts this, regardless of the experience or the abilities of the dealer. It's the actions of a casino cheat that define him as a casino cheat, without regards of anyone else's actions or intent. Sadly, few gamblers understand this, they think "Anything I can get away with MAKES it legal..." More "Hmm...."

Many of the gaming industry's game protection improvements are a direct result of dealer firings - and player expulsions and arrests.

Certainly I cannot suggest here at a gamblers' forum that gamblers act as if they always had ethical bearings - as it directly relates to casino cheating such as hole-carding. This is sometimes condoned here outright - take a look at the thread's title, or at a lot of thread's titles here: "How to cheat the casino recommendation #137....." This area is actually a sub-area within the gaming industry as part of the "cat-and-mouse" aspect of it all.

The answer to your comment of:
"Train the dealers properly and supervise them thoroughly" as your excuse of casino cheating is about as valid as saying that a armed robbery or "hold-up" at a 7-11 convience store is always legal and the fault of the clerk - because it is possible that it can actually happen, and it does. Certainly here in Las Vegas.

Stick up a convience store, and get away with it - it's the clerk's fault - and that makes it legal.
Commit a casino cheating action - and it's the dealers fault, if you're good enough criminal to get away with it, or if the dealer is new. Is that the thinking here? Yes it is!

God forbid people should be held liable for their own criminal behaviour - simply because they try - and can at times - get away with it.

Quote: Paigowdan

"Train the dealers properly and supervise them thoroughly" as your excuse of casino cheating is about as valid as saying that a armed robbery or "hold-up" at a 7-11 convience store is always legal and the fault of the clerk - because it is possible that it can actually happen, and it does. Certainly here in Las Vegas.

Stick up a convience store, and get away with it - it's the clerk's fault - and that makes it legal.
Commit a casino cheating action - and it's the dealers fault, if you're good enough criminal to get away with it, or if the dealer is new. Is that the thinking here? Yes it is!

Holding up a store is never legal. Looking at a hole card a dealer flashes in my face is never illegal. Until you figure that out your just playing the same, sad old tune.

Quote: TheNightfly

Quote: Paigowdan

"Train the dealers properly and supervise them thoroughly" as your excuse of casino cheating is about as valid as saying that a armed robbery or "hold-up" at a 7-11 convience store is always legal and the fault of the clerk - because it is possible that it can actually happen, and it does. Certainly here in Las Vegas.

Stick up a convience store, and get away with it - it's the clerk's fault - and that makes it legal.
Commit a casino cheating action - and it's the dealers fault, if you're good enough criminal to get away with it, or if the dealer is new. Is that the thinking here? Yes it is!

Holding up a store is never legal. Looking at a hole card a dealer flashes in my face is never illegal. Until you figure that out your just playing the same, sad old tune.

Ditto- Dan- you aver that 'hole-carding' is a misdemeanor. I will state that, unless there is collusion between the dealer and the player, there can be no prohibition from the player, who is just using his eyes and his mind, from making a decision to raise or fold based on all the information the casino has made available to him. I am not saying that a casino can't back off a hole carder, just like they do card counters. Dan, you are simply wrong.

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Quote: TheNightfly

Holding up a store is never legal. Looking at a hole card a dealer flashes in my face is never illegal. Until you figure that out your just playing the same, sad old tune.

Wrong, Nightfly, and as a fellow board member, I do not want you to kid yourself, neither the original poster.

And also they (the Casino managers) don't need to say "you used a mirror" to do so. (An innocent and single one-time flash, well yes, you're off scott-free.)
But repeated capture of you doing hole card observation, and changing your play as a result, and taking the money - all caught on surveillance tape, is a definate risk to the perpertrator, and to the dealer, for whatever the reason of his own failure.

The judge and jury will just look at the surveillance footage bending your neck down ever so slightly just to SEE the hole cards, and see your hands take up the winning chips, and make a call on it, and BANG - a criminal record.

So a session of hole-carding caught on surviellance tape, as this thread is about, it is illegal, and you'll have a casino fraud arrest record. Do it twice or more on surveillance film - and take the money from it with your hands scoping up casino chips on tape, there may be:
1. a casino detention by casino security, held for the police;
2. an arrest, and:
3. Your mug shot with either Henderson PD, or Las Vegas Metro.

Both you and the dealer will be "tapped off" the game by casino security.

If you get released with no charges, an arrest record with a mug shot still exists against you.

Every future job application in your life will have to include an explanation as to the effect of "what was I thinking??" if it gets just a $50 fine with a record - in relation to a misdemeanor casino fraud detention. I say this as someone with a gaming license.

A break-in dealer struggling to pay his bills gets fired (and who may have had become a sharp dealer later) now has his gaming career wrecked.

And you can't get a corporate job, in spite of your College degree, because of it. A Pizza Hut Driver now....It's amazing how a minor casino fraud arrest on your record by the Henderson police department or Las Vegas Metro can affect a job application in any industry in your future life. People won't ask "what where you thinking when you did this?", they'll just assume you're a moron or crook not worth hiring back for any job. A lot of people go into casinos without geting arrested or trying to cheat a casino on a table game, why should you be any different? I can tell you stories - actual history and events of

What are you going to say: - "But I saw it as a recommended 'advantage play' action at the WizardofVegas.com??" like it's a great referral for Mike.

Casino fraud actions happen every day in this town. And there is little sympathy is seperating the weeds from the chaffe, they both hit the fire.

Casino cheating is simply illegal, and a hole-carding session caught on surveillance tape constitutes arguable casino cheating proof. Arrests, mug shots, and lawyers are all invovled, and deservedly so. If you get away with it, don't enjoy the jollies. If you get caught, you will pay.

If the dealer flashed it on purpose (acting as an agent with you in this - which may be claimed), he'll get arrested too, otherwise he'll be fired from his job as just a moron. But that's him.

If you think this is far-fetched, then take a look at the "dice-sliding" thread here at this forum, involving the Wynn Casino and a couple of Argentinian dice cheats. See what a stink and mess that caused all inmvolved.
There are at least as many "little stinks" that don't make the papers, but have effect in peoples lives.

I've written about a couple of Las Vegas incidents that involved "minor" casino cheating incidents and arrests (one by some college kids from San Diego capping bets on a break-in dealer at a Stations property for "shits and giggles") who were later arrested because casino manager called Metro (police) after surviellance caught them. Imagine being an MBA student at UCSD studying to be a banker - with a casino fraud arrest on your record because you were goofing off at the Wild West Gambling hall, and were capping $3 Blackjack bets as a lark, a joke?? Nobody has any problem when a casino does cheating, which is unacceptable, but when players cheat, why is it condoned?

The point I am trying to make is that once we "okay" any sort of minor casino fraud (and hole-carding and past-posting are both clear examples), then not only are we possibly operating against the spirit of gambling, we are SOMETIMES CLEARLY acting against gaming laws - and are ALWAYS operating against gaming ethics of which only a miniscule minorty understands, - regardless of immense "calculator" math abilities on the outside of it sees - as well as ethics in general.

The fact that it is frequently condoned here is a bit disgraceful, in the sense that casino house cheating (or even innocent mistakes by dealers) never makes the "mistaken" money the house's money, in argument or in reality, but when players cheat, it is simply "okay - and legal - if it is not caught, and an outrage if it is stopped." In this regard, any "cheated" money that advanatges the player is simply glorious - and the schemes to cheat are discussed here openly on how to do it successfully approved without dissent, but any action to protect the gambling hall that provides us all this in the first place as considered nefarious, greedy, and with comtempt, no matter how fair or reasonable.

I DO however hope that some board members here an see that hole carding is casino cheating like past-posting, plain and simple, without regard to innocent dealer mistakes, but in regard to nefarious gambler action - or in clean gambler's response who does not want any dirty money. If a gambler says "don't pay the table, it's not right, the real result that the dealer did not bust or lose, he has a 20" is met with outrage and not acceptance of the real gambling result. And if the dealer incorrectly pays the table, people are totally silent unless it were the other way around. And they will say, "Ah...that is the way it is supposed to be..." unless it is the other way around, "you gotta pay it back."

This is really the sad old tune, and every gambling hall worker knows this.
Every gambler refuses to know it also, and in the same breath.

Dan- there are people here who admit they hole card. The Wiz has posted a strategy to make it an advantage play. My guess is it is being done by thousands, maybe tens of thousands, every day. Can you please refer me to ONE person convicted of hole carding? One case in the public domain? I am NOT talking about a person who colluded with the dealer, nor am I talking about a person who used an external device (mirror, card marker, etc) Just name ONE person convicted of SEEING a card in the casino and making a decision based on that knowledge. I'm only asking for ONE.....

Guys we seem to be drifting off-topic. This wasnt really about the legality of hole carding or ethics.
The fact is, I will take the oppurtunity if it presents its self, Im not stealing chips out of the tray, or past posting. I am just using the information available to me. I asked for a copy of the rule card, and I kept it. No where on the rule card did it say I couldn't use the provided information to make a decision. Should they get silly and try and prosecute me, I will present the card as exhibit 1A. I cant possibly see how it will stand up in court.

I got the help I needed, $5k Roll and $50 flat betting. Thanks for the help.

I'm interested to learn arrest without prosecution can be used against you in the future in the US.

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Quote: Paigowdan

If you get released with no charges, an arrest record with a mug shot still exists against you.

If you weren't charged, then you weren't arrested. And using the record or the mug shot against you in the future really would be illegal.

To all of you all here at this forum (and this needs to be said):

1. Hole carding at three card poker at any modern casino is simply an assinine pursuit in this day and age, when real casino gambling needs to occur, casino players especially included; it's not a career, and it is not a hobby. It is a moronic pursuit, and an embarrassment to the attempter, especially when caught: there is nothing on a personal history quite like a "misdemeanor and petty casino fraud arrest;"

2. Such a recommendation at open casino cheating should be an embarrassment to this forum, and to the attempted perpetrator. Sadly it is not. It's not that James Bond wouldn't do this (and he would not); it's that some clown would try this as the casino version of "Jack Ass: Casino cheating at Three Card Poker."

3. Try it if you want: ANY recommendation to carry out any sort of illegal or nefarious gambling activity at any regulated U.S. casino should not be condoned, especially at a U.S. based casino forum. But what the hell: let us know how it goes, will ya?

Quote: Paigowdan

Nobody has any problem when a casino does cheating

That's because we know the casino cheats all of the time and have come to expect it.

Quote: kp

That's because we know the casino cheats all of the time and have come to expect it.

You are taking about the players in terms of "casino player cheats," aren't you, certainly?
Take a look at this thread's title: "How to cheat the casinos at three card poker..." basically.

Quote: thecesspit

I'm interested to learn arrest without prosecution can be used against you in the future in the US.

It's called a background check.
People don't get arrested by accident in a casino, that's the assumption. In fact, people don't get arrested by accident at all.
The arrest and police records - with or without any further trial court action or final conviction - get reviewed.
It is looked at.

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Quote: Paigowdan

It's called a background check.
People don't get arrested by accident in a casino, that's the assumption. In fact, people don't get arrested by accident at all.
The arrest and police records - with or without any further trial court action or final conviction - get reviewed.
It is looked at.

Now you're changing your words. Before it was that the person wasn't charged. Now it's that they're not convicted. Either way, convictions are all that matters in a background check. Otherwise, you run the risk of penalizing an innocent person for police error.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's called a background check.
People don't get arrested by accident in a casino, that's the assumption. In fact, people don't get arrested by accident at all.

That's a very naive view. People can be wrongfully arrested. It happens.

Anyways, I can't comment on the US or various states in the US.

All I DO know is that a background check in the UK and Canada can only reveal unspent convictions, outstanding warrants and pending charges. I was only noting out loud that the law is different (obviously) in the US. There's some differences between the UK and Canada (naturally). I know about them as I've been through a few background checks, and obliquely worked on the background check systems in the UK.

Unspent convictions are one in which the person has either been formally convicted, or the person has accepted a formal, written warning. Warnings seem to be relatively common for minor, first time offences.

If someone was hole carding in the UK, and it was deemed a criminal matter, the arrest would NOT be on their background check, unless charges were successfully convicted. I'll leave the US lawyers to note what would happen in the US.

A few thoughts:

If for some reason the casino flips ALL of its cards over in a 3CP poker game and makes it legal to do so, why wouldn't we as the player change our strategy?

The same is true for holecarding. No, we're not supposed to see the card, but if we do, why are we not entitled to adjust our strategy henceforth? It's up to the casino to fix its game to provide itself with the true edge. We're not using any mechanical device. We're following the rules at the table. There is no rule that says "thou shalt not holecard". It's an unwritten rule, like counting. Now, if we're bending down too low, straighten us up or back us off. If the dealer is telling us what the holecard is, fire him. If someone is sitting behind the table using binoculars to figure out the holecard and then telling us via a signal, then arrest us.

It's up to the casino to prevent the ability for the player to holecard. If we're sitting at a table and happen to see the holecard (or make an attempt to see the holecard via careful observation, reflection in a pyramid, a slight stoop) why would we the player get penalized?

Dan has made a statement that he refuses to give any evidence for. He is sounding more like Jerry Logan with each longwinded rant. Dan- provide some evidence that a casino has ARRESTED someone for hole carding when collusion or a foreign device was not involved. If you cannot then please stop besmirching those that don't close their eyes and brains while in a casino.

Dan's Great Walls' of Text, stopped being worth reading a while ago, as they're always full of brain-washed rhetoric, more and the same, never a smidge of free-thought.

Quote: Paigowdan

You are taking about the players in terms of "casino player cheats," aren't you, certainly?
Take a look at this thread's title: "How to cheat the casinos at three card poker..." basically.

We were. But then you mentioned how nobody has a problem when the casino is the one doing the cheating. I was just saying that we don't bother mentioning how the casino is continuity cheating the player as we have grown accustomed to it.

To be fair, the casino doesn't cheat the player. They are supposed to play by the rules, and the great majority of the Brick and Mortar casinos do. It's not fair to say that the casino is cheating the player when it is in fact simply following the rules that it has set and giving them a house advantage at every turn. It is providing entertainment to the player in turn for a house advantage (theoretically). It's not cheating.

But we've been here before.

Back to the thread at hand, which is to ask the question of how much bankroll to bring when you can holecard, and the answer is simple: the same as if you can't. You can't increase your ante before the cards are dealt, so you can only bet on the play. And there's variance involved in seeing the holecard - quite a bit of it. And seeing paint doesn't really help you that much to overcome the edge.

Quote: Paigowdan

Dan "aka Casino cop" on this thread:
If you get caught hole-carding on a Blackjack or a poker carnival game in a casino (such as three-Card poker game), and get detained, arrested or booked as a casino cheat, even as a misdemeanor or a "fine payable" offense - both your casino career and your advantage play career are over.

Note well: If you get arrested and booked and detained for doing something completely legal like hole-carding, you MAY get a $500,000 jury judgement in your favor.

Boy,
I really stirred the pot. Didn't necessarily mean to, just wanted to present another point of view, one involving law, ethics, and casino behavior, in that maybe:

1. You should consider what the ground rules may indeed be concerning that some forms of Advantage Play (AP), as it may indeed involve outright cheating, including past-posting, hole-carding, etc., which are considered both cheating AND illegal. Note that as an exception that card counting IS considered BOTH cheating AND completely legal. Doesn't mean that card counting gives you the right to carry it out at a casino just because you want to and read about it here at WizardofVegas. It DOES mean that you do have the right to NOT get arrested for that, - although expulsion from a casino and placement on a casino exclusion list are options that casinos have against card counters.

However, past-posting, hole-carding, and capping and pinching bets are both illegal and cheating - plain and simple, end of story - and YES, Johnny, you can get a mug shot and an arrest record for that could kill corporate or government career advancement, and no amount of "Dan! I hate that you are saying that here!" will change that simple fact, even if your wish-fulfillment dream of casino take-down fantasy bubble is burst.

2. You should consider playing by the rules of the house when you do play at a casino. Most gamblers DO play by the rules of the house, though many have a innocent problem as to where the cheating line really is, including many views at this board. We witness attitudes of "Hey Guys! Let's go casino cheating today, via hole-carding! - YIPPIE!!! Let's give THIS thing a SHOT!" are often presented here, and are clearly misguided and condoned.

All because I said, of all things, - you shouldn't go to the casino with criminal or nefarious intent, even if you are innocently ignorant or where that line is, or are misguided or just unaware of it. I am sure there are many people who post here quite innocently ask, "what's the best way to cheat a casino via x, y, or z method? Please help me." - thinking it is like really cool, dude. Sometimes that is what this board is about, and is sad to see. And this is not a "if I may say" position, it is an "I am saying this" position.

For the record:
Note 1: I clearly said card counting is completely legal. Doesn't mean it's completely acceptable to a casino operation, and the casino house does set the rules as to what is in bounds and out of bounds, whether or not you think this is a personal outrage from your point of view as a player. If you're wrongfully arrested for card counting, you may deserve a $500,000 cash award. Fine with me if that's the case, that doesn't break my heart, it makes it sing when justice is done, - and getting an arrest record for card counting is wrong. But yes, I also feel that card counting itself is ethically wrong in Blackjack only, even if it is legal. Card counting at Poker and Bridge is beautiful, and SHOULD be done, for that matter, IMO.

Note 2: other casino actions are patently "on the books" as illegal by gaming laws, including past-posting, deliberate attempts at hole-carding, capping and pinching bets, marking cards, etc. You may get an arrest record for it if caught, even if it gives you your "gambling jollies." Not that you'll be convicted of manslaughter like Dr. Conrad Murray (who obviously thought that shooting up Michael Jackson with Propofol as a sleeping aid is ethically and professionally responsible), but that you may have a minor arrest record for casino cheating that could affect your professional job-interview life, even if you think it is ethically dandy and really kewl, as many here do.

I would just like to make clear that despite whatever Dan says, according to the Nevada Supreme Court neither card counting nor hole carding is illegal or prosecutable:

"In contrast, consider the gaming patrons who are specially gifted and can increase the odds in their favor by "card counting." Or perhaps the patron who notices and takes advantage of a dealer's habit of play that will occasionally provide an unintended view of the dealer's cards. Unquestionably, neither category of patron would be subject to prosecution under the statute, although casino management may take measures to deny them the right to play. In both cases, the players simply exploit what their skills and the play of the game will afford them. Any yet, they are altering the usual criteria, i.e., the characteristic complex or standard of play that determines the frequency of payment." Lyons v. State, 118 Nev. 317, 322 (1989).

A person is guilty of cheating only if they "[alter] the physical charateristics of the game or [violate] a defined and established rule of play." Skipper v. State, 110 Nev. 1031, 1035 (1994).

You're not stirring the pot Dan. You're just dredging up the same old bunk that you have in the past.

If you are capable of answering these 2 questions with a simple "yes" or "no" answer please do. I'm not asking for your views on anything or your personal opinion of what you would do or think should be done in this particular situation (I, along with most regular members here are well aware of how you feel about things) - just a simple "yes" or "no will suffice.

If I'm playing 3CP and through no effort on my part (beyond simply sitting up straight in my chair and looking at the cards as they come out of the machine) I view the bottom cards of the dealer's packet:

1. Am I breaking any law that would be recognized by the Nevada penal code?
2. If I adjust my play based upon this information am I breaking any law recognized by the Nevada penal code?

I understand that you are probably not aware of every law on the books so if you don't respond I'll not hold it against you - but if you do have answers to these questions, please keep them to a simple "yes" or "no".

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1. NO, 2. NO. Dan, No.

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Night Fly,
I will be happy to directly answer your questions in good faith.
Firstly, let me say that I am not dredging up old bunk, I am bringing up valid ethical points on gambling that need thought and discussion - and disagreement is allowed and is fine.
Secondly, everyone here knows "who feels what about what;" in that regard, we all know that I view any cheats (including casino cheats) as unethical and morally challenged people, plain and simple. This view upsets people because, well, a lot of them would just love to get away with some easy and ill gotten gains if given the chance, and indeed seek out such skill sets here at this board at times, as their idea of "what gambling is about."

They further rationalize that they are not bad people; simply put, the point of view that they are morally questionable for embodying this behavior is disturbing to them, as we'd all love to think we are all lovely people when we're not. We're human, we cheat, we seek the "free lunch," we honestly care about ourselves more than others, and we rationalize and justify to ourselves that we can't be unethical people when in fact we can be, but choose not to see it or hear it.

I state this plainly, and if you want to say that "cheating is justifiable because the casinos and gaming people are "evil," "deserve it," or that "their mistake outside of fair play is my valid gain when it in MY favor, but an outrage if a dealer makes a mistake in the house's favor, even if corrected," then you may state that too - and you have.

Now I will answer concretely, giving you a final answer in a Yes/No/Maybe (when not certain), plus an explanation of the casino scenario :
1. if a dealer flashes a hole card through NO effort on your part, and you refuse to use that info to help yourself (as you would not have gotten that advantage in "fair play" and so you refuse it,) then you're of high moral character, especially if you notify the dealer of the problem, to stop the problem. Your Simple Answer here: NO (And to FrGamble, this is what I would believe "Jesus would do," and in that regard, Jesus would not count cards.)

2. If a dealer flashes a hole card through NO effort on your part, and you use that info to take easy money, I believe that you are not committing a legal crime, but a moral failing where, if it doesn't bother you, you let that part go and just take the money. This person may be less of a saint and more of a dirtbag as a person in some people's eyes, but hey, who cares, I got some easy, dirty money for dinner, WTF. Into the pocket the chips go, for a later visit to the cage.Your simple answer here: MAYBE, if you adjust play, but not certain. There is more:

3. If a dealer doesn't quite flash a hole card unless you take some additional personal action to use this info, to seek a gain (such as using a mirror ring to glimpse the hole card, or having a scout behind the table at a better vantage point, or clearly adjusting your position to get the right angle, or using a mini-camera, or marking the cards, etc.) then yes, you are breaking the law. Your Simple answer here: Yes.

There are many scenarios with variations that examine ethical querstions at many ".edu" philosophy sites that are fascinating to watch, but I have not come across gaming-specific discussions, so what we do here is the closest I've seen to this stuff, and I am thankful for it, actually. Some of the discussions involve "if you had to throw one person in front of a moving car in order to save ten peoples lives, is that a moral action?" and the classroom debates it, with variations of the scenarios, and with people really showing their true colors. Fascinating. We've had discussions here along the lines of "if the dealer makes a mistake which is not how the cards or game would have procedurally played out, - does that make the money Mine?" and the general consensus is: "Yes, but ONLY if it is in the player's favor; If in the house's favor, it is an outrage, and all the evil casino people must die, even if corrected when pointed out..." etc.

In any case, this thread was to deliberately started to seek illicit advantage of a particular and known dealer who makes this mistake in his procedure, for personal gain and advantage. No mention of the ethics - Zero - was considered until yours truly came along to screw up the party. No mention of helping the dealer advance in his skills was discussed. No mention of notifying the casino about fixing a problem was attempted. Just "How can I get my hands on some easy cash" at the expense of a casino business was the thrust of the thread, or at least how it was started.

Without splitting hairs on the penal code, such an attempt is ethically and spiritually bankrupt, with a bold Period, End Of Story on that. It is seeking info from the public in the confines of a gamblers discussion forum on how to cheat a casino, and also risks the job of a break-in dealer when he needs to advance his skills AND needs his salary to live, but that was not even brought up. Let's be honest. Somebody is going to notice that and point that out. The fact that I am usually alone is both a matter of sadness and personal pride. I don't fit in here well, but that's okay. It's like being a monk in a den of thieves. But then of course being a Las Vegas crap dealer at a local joint is like being a monk in a den of shot-takers. Dealers and floormen and shift managers have different views of gamblers' ethics than do the gamblers. And I love that phrase: "Gamblers' ethics." Just precious.

Quote: UCivan

1. NO, 2. NO. Dan, No.

I speak for myself. See above post.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

THE ANSWER TO NIGHTFLY'S QUESTIONS IS NO! And its no in any other state in the union in ANY commercial casino. Did I say that loud enough?

No, you did not...let's keep this going.
1. I've always stated that card counting is legal, let's be clear on that. Ethically questionable, so whaaat.
2. The quote Teddys gave us refers to counting, and again we know that's legal.
3. Hole carding is a different matter. Have your lawyer call a lawyer.
4. A part of me actually WANTS some hole-carding/cheating to occur, if only to punish the fellow casino operators who are so damn sloppy in their procedures that they need some punishment to shape up, - in order to get them to do their game protection end of the job. Some dealers may get fired, some "players" may get a minor arrest, some casino executives may get demoted or fired, all as part of the business advancement process in a Darwinian sense. In this regard, the d]rtbag cheaters provide a "positive and needed business education" to those casino operators who need to get their house in order. They also keep lawyers, policemen, surviellance crews, etc in job security, as well as provide casino openings for new break-in dealers who might be more on the ball.

Got to admit, the cheaters are a part of the whole freaking eco-system of the gaming industry, and a part of me has got to love it, too.

Quote: Paigowdan

The fact that I am usually alone is both a matter of sadness and personal pride. I don't fit in here well, but that's okay. It's like being a monk in a den of thieves.

Actually, Dan, I think most people here welcome your opinion and thoughts. You just have a clear bias to the casino side of things. Perfectly understandable, since you get your paycheck from them and have so much invested in the industry through your game.

Quote:

2. The quote Teddys gave us refers to counting, and again we know that's legal.

Please get your knowledge of the law correct. My quote refers to hole carding as well as card counting. I think it is important for casino personnel to know this. Otherwise you could expose yourself to liability.

If the hole card I see is an Ace, and I have King high, I'm folding. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with this. I'm playing legally, and the casino has displayed a card to me that helps me with my strategy. I'm in a casino, and every game has an edge against me. The casino attempts to butter me up with booze, hot waitresses, lack of clocks, noise, and so on. That is legal, but not necessarily ethical.

The casino doesn't tell me how to play the game and doesn't tell me what the most skillful play is. In 3 card, most players don't know a q-6-4 is the breaking point. Most players don't know that seeing low cards around you means that the dealer is more likely to high cards, and vice versa. The casno doesn't tell me that the pairs plus bet is stupid and that there's a full-pay pay table up the street. It's up to me to edumacate myself on the game -- otherwise the house edge is well over the percentage claimed. You want to make the game fair? Tell the players what the optimum play is and let them decide for themselves. Do the same for all of the casino games. I dare a craps dealer to tell a player making the hardways bet to say, "you know we keep 11.1 / 9.9 cents of every dollar you bet there." That would be ethical.

I got rebuked from another dealer at let it ride because the player who was knew was having the dealer return bets even though he was dealt a pair of tens. When I told the player to stay, the dealer told me that I couldn't talk.

If I'm using a mirror; if I have an accomplice tell me the hole cards; if I mark cards -- by all means arrest me. Anything else is up to the casino to improve its conditions. I'm operating within the rules, and while what I am doing may not be ethical, what the casino does also is not ethical.

But I get it, Dan, you're representing the industry. There's a cheat method out there -- holecarding three card -- and there's a dealer at a casino who's doing it habitually. The dealer will get strongly rebuked once the pit or the eye in the sky notices it. That is the right course of action.

But this is the Wizard of Vegas - a forum used to discuss gambling, well, in Vegas. There are lots of threads on gambling systems, blackjack counting, roulette bias, dice influencing -- all ways to reduce the house advantage through legitimate and illegitimate means. As gamblers, we're just trying to reduce the edge, to expand our entertainment dollar.

Quote: boymimbo

If the hole card I see is an Ace, and I have King high, I'm folding. There is nothing morally or ethically wrong with this.

A point can be made that you would have flat-out played that hand out with a King and lost, - had you not seen the dealer's bottom card of his card packet, regardless of, and especially because of the mitigating factor of the dealer's mistake that you (aha! - ruthlessly!) capitalized on for your own benefit.

Quote: boymimbo

I'm playing legally, and the casino has displayed a card to me that helps me with my strategy.

Read: That helped me cheat because I did not point out the dealer's mistake, and because I'll' just take the easy cash if I get a peek. Shoot - a dealer's mistake makes the money mine, although I'd bitch like hell with guns blazing if MY cards were peeked in a poker game to another's advantage!!

Quote: boymimbo

I'm in a casino, and every game has an edge against me.

It's supposed to: you pay your bus fare on a bus, not demanding a free ride, nor do you use a counterfeit bus pass. You also pay for a restaurant meal, not running out of the restaurant without paying when finished. You don't complain about the bill for your action or service in these cases, or in any other case of service or entertainment, but you cry like hell about the house edge even though the casino is THE ONLY SHOT of walking with their money in legal play. Can you imagine going to a brothel, and after a great session with some anonymous beauty, she then pays YOU a huge jackpot for having had some action??!! Well, that's the chance the casino or gambling hall offers the gambler: some good action AND a chance to leave with more money than you even came in with. About 40% of the time (2 out of 5 times) I leave a casino with more money I came in with, and 60% I have a loss. But 100% of the time I leave a restaurant, a Strip show or performance, a strip club, or a movie with a monetary loss every time. I NEVER say "I left a loser tonight" if I didn't like the meal or the show, even though I LOSE money EVERY TIME I go to a restaurant or a show, or to a strip club, especially. (However, you cannot complain about the service at a brothel, as the proof is in the sauce........)
But anyway, a Casino IS supposed to have a house edge on its games, just as a restaurant or movie house or brothel charges a house admission price. And he beauty of the casino is that the shorter you stay, the lower the admission price; nothing is fairer than "pay as you go." Plus if you hit a streak on Roulette or Blackjack, or a straight flush in poker, you're leaving with cash PLUS having had better action that was even more enjoyable. For Christ sakes you do not need to espouse cheating or complain about the house edge, just compare the casino to other entertainment venues to see its value. Actually you do see it exactly this way on some level, - because you all are casino patrons and gambling board members here.

Quote: boymimbo

The casino attempts to butter me up with booze, hot waitresses, lack of clocks, noise, and so on. That is legal, but not necessarily ethical.

Yes, it IS ethical for the following THREE reasons:
1. If the casino didn't offer beverage service, you'd really bitch here at this forum (in the hotel/casino review pages), "Damn! This casino is CHEAP! They don't even offer beverage service!!!!"
2. If the casino offered beverage service, and charged you per drink, you'd bitch: "Damn! This Casino is CHEAP! They CHARGE me for drinks when I'm giving them action! You'd think they cover this service as a free courtesy to us players!!!"
3. Now, since most casino DO offer FREE beverage service for all table players and slot players, you'd also bitch: DAMN! This casino is CHEAP! Free beverage service for their patrons??!! They're jusy trying to get us drunk so that we will LOSE our money! Aha! THAT'S the ticket...I KNEW it, how EVIL it is! This conspiracy - (even though you can order diet Pepsi, coffee and bottle water!!) They STILL have some nerve!"
So no matter WHAT beverage service offering that a casino operator may provide its customers - and as a courtesy to their wishes and demands mind you, we are still "predatory gambing operators" - and this is coming from our own clientele !!
Which one is it??!!

Quote: boymimbo

The casino doesn't tell me how to play the game and doesn't tell me what the most skillful play is.

True in the sense that the casino dealer doesn't tell you how to play your hand, or play your hand for you, as you play it yourself, - but the casino house or its dealer NEVER CAN act as an AGENT FOR YOU OR AGAINST in the play of the hand on a live table, or in how YOU wish to play your hand - as you the player play YOUR hand as you see fit. Clearly that would be a "Gaming level conflict of interest" IF such a thing were to happen at a casino.
But in one regard you are wrong. Most casinos give the courtesy to re-set fouled Pai Gow hands, and to review and replay Blackjack hands, and so give the player the better win-or-push result on an innocent mistake if it occurs on a card-based casino game. On Blackjack and most card games, many undeserved "Mulligans" are indeed awarded or given back to a player, especialy on a first request. However, on dice and Roulette games, the "game hand" results will remain as they were called by the operating dealer (Stickman on crap games, and "croupier" on Roulette), and protests may be filed by the player on those games to the florman ("inspector") or to the pit boss, shift manager, or even casino manager.

Quote: boymimbo

In 3 card, most players don't know a q-6-4 is the breaking point.

True, many players don't know this, but also many do. Most players play a QJx or better, and fold a Q-10-x or lower, and therefore lose 0.0000006748291, or about ten cents cents per session. WTF.
However, Q-6-4 is NOT the breaking point. The breaking point is ANY hand a gambler sees fit to play or fold on three card poker when he consideres his bankroll, or when he decides to play his hand as he sees fit. The Dealer qualifies with ANY Q hand in three card poker, including Q-3-2 off-suit, while the player may PLAY or FOLD any hand he sees fit. The hand Q-6-4 in three card poker is the "mathematical median" that you should fold when playing in the player's position. Most players play QJx, and fold any qxx or less.

Quote: boymoron

Most players don't know that seeing low cards around you means that the dealer is more likely to high cards, and vice versa. The casno doesn't tell me that the pairs plus bet is stupid and that there's a full-pay pay table up the street.

Why should they? All bets made are stupid. For that matter, they can call you stupid just for walking into a f*cking casino. Lord knows, every dealer is thinking that when you walk into the place. Every casino employee says that to himself five days a week when clocking in to work, so we're no diffrent. In fact, everybody says that to themselves when they clock into work. As a matter of fact, everybody who has a job hates themselves for having that job, unless they work for Amway. And Up the street is no different.

Quote: boymimbo

It's up to me to edumacate myself on the game -- otherwise the house edge is well over the percentage claimed. You want to make the game fair? Tell the players what the optimum play is and let them decide for themselves. Do the same for all of the casino games. I dare a craps dealer to tell a player making the hardways bet to say, "you know we keep 11.1 / 9.9 cents of every dollar you bet there." That would be ethical.

A casino game is fair if the main table game bet is less than 4%, and slots return 96%. The house takes its reasonable enterance fee to operate the property, and is paid to put up with you. The crap dealer, the floorman, the pit boss, and the security guard will inform you what is or is not ethical.

Quote: boymimbo

I got rebuked from another dealer at let it ride because the player who was knew was having the dealer return bets even though he was dealt a pair of tens. When I told the player to stay, the dealer told me that I couldn't talk.

That dealer is a moron. ignore him.

Quote: boymimbo

If I'm using a mirror; if I have an accomplice tell me the hole cards; if I mark cards -- by all means arrest me. Anything else is up to the casino to improve its conditions. I'm operating within the rules, and while what I am doing may not be ethical, what the casino does also is not ethical.

Says who? You? Oh.
What the casino does is ethical, or else they'd be out of business.
What we do at this forum is bitch and whine.
You want to really improve the casinos? Become a casino executive.
Start by getting an MBA in gaming and Hospitality while paying for it as a casino dealer.
Work your way up through the industry like the rest if us had.
Implement your changes at casinos throughout the nation.
Or moan about what you want here at this forum.

Quote: boymimbo

But I get it, Dan, you're representing the industry.

Yes, indeed. I even changed the industry by getting my game out across the U.S.
Made a mark.
And also made a tiny mark here, too.
Boymimbo, what have you done in this industry?

Quote: boymimbo

There's a cheat method out there -- holecarding three card -- and there's a dealer at a casino who's doing it habitually. The dealer will get strongly rebuked once the pit or the eye in the sky notices it. That is the right course of action.

Yes it is. It is part of the process.

Quote: boymimbo

But this is the Wizard of Vegas - a forum used to discuss gambling, well, in Vegas. There are lots of threads on gambling systems, blackjack counting, roulette bias, dice influencing -- all ways to reduce the house advantage through legitimate and illegitimate means. As gamblers, we're just trying to reduce the edge, to expand our entertainment dollar.

Yes, you are trying to MAXIMIZE you gambling DOLLAR AND EXPERIENCE!
As an industry guy, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE this POINT OF VIEW!.
That is exactly spot on.
But promoting cheating at Three Card Poker for a few extra pennies, and getting a struggling new dealer fired from his job advances no one, now does it?
1. If the edge is appropriate, and it is, then don't try to reduce it, especially by cheating, and just continue to play without bitching.
2. If the house edge is inappropriate or too high, then call, contact, and work with casino executives; if there is a serious problem, the Administrator of this board (Mike Shackleford) will help on ANY worthy idea or thrust, and you can PM him - or even ME.
3. To be honest, I have seen very few GOOD new table game ideas, and this is an area I work in on a daily basis. But I have also seen an industry that is working very well, and expanding vey quickly with fine success, and with very little for casino players to gripe about. The gaming industry as The table games are good, the slots are generally very good, the casinos now offer much better restaurants, movie theaters, bowling, and an assortment of other non-gambling activities.

In this day and age, I just no longer feel there is a need anymore to try to be a casiono advantage player, and certainly not any sort of casino cheat - as if the casino operators are an evil empire or the people's enemies when the casino is just an alternative to the cinema or a show or dirt-bike riding, what have you. Why this thinking on trying to get a cheating casino edge? Do we spend our time trying to get into the cinema complex for free Either spend your entertainment money at a casino, or go to the cineplex, or go play golf or something.

Dan, that was quite a tear!!!

First off, the price of drinks doesn't affect how much I drink at a casino. My Canadian casinos do charge for alcohol and I support this practice because it reduces (in general) the drunks on the floors making bad gambling decisions. Some casinos also have clocks in them to tell people the time. There's one casino in British Columbia where the time is displayed on every slot machine between each spin. This is to counter problem gambling. Generally, I don't drink when gambling, and I really think that free alcohol at a casino is wrong. When I go bowling, golfing, or to the cinema, do I get free drinks? No - instead, i usually pay a premium, and it's the same at Canadian casinos.

The casino is not ethical at all in my opinion, though it is operating within regulations set out by the government (and therefore by extension the government is unethical as well). There is a best way to play a table game, and you are not told what that way is. Even in Pai Gow, you get ONE opportunity to reset a FOULED hand -- you don't get an opportunity to fix a non-fouled hand played obviously the wrong way (ie QQAK875, the player inadvertently puts up the A8 instead of the AK). In three card, most people fold on QJ or less -- do you tell them that it's the wrong strategy?

It's not up to me to point out the casino's mistake. Does the casino point out their mistakes to the player?

96% on slot machines? Where? The edge on most strip slots is on the order of 93%, 10%+ for penny slots.

Quote: PaiGowDan

All bets made are stupid. For that matter, they can call you stupid just for walking into a f*cking casino. Lord knows, every dealer is thinking that when you walk into the place. Every casino employee says that to himself five days a week when clocking in to work, so we're no different. In fact, everybody says that to themselves when they clock into work. As a matter of fact, everybody who has a job hates themselves for having that job, unless they work for Amway. And Up the street is no different.

There are many smart bets out there. But there are far more dumb ones out there. And a very smart bet is an advantage bet. And I don't hate myself for having my job -- why is that a matter of fact???

-The edge in 3 card at 7.28% on pairs plus is a sucker bet. It's 1/2 of the main game.
-I'm not cheating when I see a hole card with my naked eye and change my play. I also feel that i am not cheating when I find a dealer who is constantly displaying their hole card. I am taking advantage of the house mistake and will assume that the mistake will be corrected. And moving from a 3% HA to a 3% PA is not pennies. On a $25 table, it's $45 / hour earnings or a $90/hour swing.

So you can tell me to f*** off and do something else. But until casinos start telling me when a play is wrong, put some clocks on the wall, start charging for drinks, display the HE on its slot machines, and cut off play when patrons are inebriated, I'm going to play for whatever advantage I can without breaking the law. And holecarding using your own naked eyes is not breaking the law.

Quote: Paigowdan

As a matter of fact, everybody who has a job hates themselves for having that job, unless they work for Amway.

You really, really need a different job in a different line of work (maybe Amway?). It may be too late as the kool-aid may have already poisoned your soul as well as your brain.

Quote: Paigowdan

What the casino does is ethical, or else they'd be out of business.

I think between the kool-aid and rose colored glasses you actually believe this. Maybe by believing is the only way to keep a shred of your soul while working in such a den of thieves.

Dan, I assume you're a decent guy and you're not trying to be the next Jerry Logan. I know I've learned a lot from some of your really valuable posts.

That said, you're being silly here with these huge blocks of text.

Re: the legality of hole carding, it's clearly legal and you're acting in bad faith to suggest otherwise at this point. People may have a .1% chance of being detained or even arrested, but the chance drops to zero of being charged, much less convicted. Point taken that people who hole card may be detained, good for them to know, but they shouldn't be tricked into thinking what they're doing is illegal.

Re: the morality of hole carding, it falls on a spectrum of player advantage from opportunities the casino provides. That might be playing craps versus slots, it might be learning basic strategy, it might be card counting, and it might be hole carding. I think you've gone off the reservation though if you think hole carding is similar to pass-posting bets, which isn't an advantage play, but rather akin to just grabbing money out of the cashier's tray.

I don't want this to be pile on Dan day today, despite a kind of vicious attack he unleashed on me.

I see his point of view: play the games offerred at the edge that the house offers them. The games are fair -- don't take advantage of them. Taking advantage of games that wasn't designed to be taken advantage of only hurts the industry. Fair enough.

And PGD believes that the casino is operating ethically. And there's where I see a huge difference.

Quote: boymimbo

And PGD believes that the casino is operating ethically. And there's where I see a huge difference.

I agree. The casinos do not care about being ethical unless something would make the 11:00 news. They don't even care about being legal unless the fine is too big or it would jeopardize their license. They take all the cheap shots they can, and get away with it, and where they can't get away with it they use their political muscle to get the laws changed in their favor.

Quote: sunrise089

Dan, I assume you're a decent guy and you're not trying to be the next Jerry Logan. I know I've learned a lot from some of your really valuable posts.

That said, you're being silly here with these huge blocks of text.
Re: the legality of hole carding, it's clearly legal and you're acting in bad faith to suggest otherwise at this point. People may have a .1% chance of being detained or even arrested, but the chance drops to zero of being charged, much less convicted. Point taken that people who hole card may be detained, good for them to know, but they shouldn't be tricked into thinking what they're doing is illegal.

A Good experiment is to find out: Pick a casino, go there to hole-card, and see if you make easy money with absolutely no problem.
What happens if you're wrong, that casino cheating such as hole-carding gets you a record?
Do you say "Dang, I thought I couldn't get into trouble! Opps!"
Now that's a silly way to think...

Quote: sunrise089

Re: the morality of hole carding, it falls on a spectrum of player advantage from opportunities the casino provides. That might be playing craps versus slots, it might be learning basic strategy, it might be card counting, and it might be hole carding. I think you've gone off the reservation though if you think hole carding is similar to pass-posting bets, which isn't an advantage play, but rather akin to just grabbing money out of the cashier's tray.

No, I have not gone off the reservation: hole-carding is considered plain ol' casino cheating just like past-posting and card-marking. I will say that to consider "cheating method A" to be "morally superior" or a "more ethical form of cheating" than "cheating method B," is a rationalization or defense mechanism that people use to justify well, their cheating.

Quote: boymimbo

I don't want this to be pile on Dan day today, despite a kind of vicious attack he unleashed on me.

I see his point of view: play the games offerred at the edge that the house offers them. The games are fair -- don't take advantage of them. Taking advantage of games that wasn't designed to be taken advantage of only hurts the industry. Fair enough.

And PGD believes that the casino is operating ethically. And there's where I see a huge difference.

I never said the gaming industry is composed of saints, or that "casinos ARE ethical.
I said:
1. Casino cheats are NOT ethical.
2. Cheating is not ethical, regardless of who does it. Many players honestly feel that cheating IS ethical if done by the players, but NOT by the casinos. This is bullshit, all cheating is unethical and most of it is illegal.

Quote: kp

I agree. The casinos do not care about being ethical unless something would make the 11:00 news.

I generally think casinos run responsible business models that exclude cheating, and use only approved games. Do you suppose kp thinks some players are not ethical, and it's a two-way street, that all sides deserve to go under the microscope?

Quote: kp

They don't even care about being legal unless the fine is too big or it would jeopardize their license. They take all the cheap shots they can, and get away with it, and where they can't get away with it they use their political muscle to get the laws changed in their favor.

I haven't found this to be the case: I see fair games, and dealers who don't cheat, and some players who take all the cheap shots they can, and get away with it.

Dan,

I'm not going to do a huge back and forth here, but I respect your brief and quick replies to my thoughts. My only further replies, and then I'll shut up:

"Pick a casino, go there to hole-card, and see if you make easy money with absolutely no problem." - One point you have is 100% valid - If people think they will make huge money doing this, and if they really really value having free access to casinos, they may want to reconsider. It probably isn't worth being banned for a small gain if being banned would be really costly to you. Other than that though I think this is a red herring. Whether I win or not has NOTHING to do with whether hole carding is legal or cheating. I won't make easy money with no problems playing slots either, right? And the record thing...the thread has made it clear the only record you might get is with a casino, if you're caught, which you probably won't be. As I said above each person has to make that call on their own.

"hole-carding is considered plain ol' casino cheating" - To you. Possibly to the casinos. Possibly to some players, not others. The key though: NOT to the police or courts. Saying someone is making excuses for immoral behavior doesn't really make sense if most people don't see the behavior as immoral in the first place.