Calling Baccarat Players

Someone mentioned on another thread that Baccarat is very similar to betting on the flip of a coin and I agree with this statement for the most part.

I have been studying the game to understand what draws people to play Baccarat. It is a "choice" game as opposed to a game played against the dealer, so in that regard it is very different from other card games that dominate the main pit. There are no strategic decisions in the game which seems to make is less popular with "western" players, but clearly the game is gaining more attention as "eastern" players continue to be a bigger part of the US gaming market.

As I don't know too much about eastern gaming culture, I am curious to know from those on the board that play the game or are familiar with the culture/mystique of the game as to what drives its popularity? What features of the game provide the excitement for the players that love the game?

In taking an initial look at the math, I think that there is just under a 19% chance of a hand being dealt a natural 8 or 9 on the first two cards. That means the in roughly 38% of the hands, after the first two cards are dealt for the player and banker hand, the winner is immediately determined and the hand is resolved. That leaves 62% of the time one or both of the hands will draw a third card which appears to be the only excitement or anticipation in the game. Unless you are playing on a big table game and get to handle the cards and squeeze out your result (like many players like to do in Pai Gow Poker).

With the addition of the Dragon Bonus bet, Shufflemaster has introduced a successful sidebet with a 30% hit rate & a maximum payout of 30-1. I had a conversation with a Baccarat player who told me that he knows several players that only get excited playing Bacc if they win their bonus bet. Are bacc players looking for more volatility than the base game provides or, is it like BJ, where hard core players are rarely interested in side bets with a higher house edge but greater volatility? Would a more volatile Bacc side bet with a maximum payout of 100, 500 or 1000 to 1 be something Bacc players would want to play?

Just what exactly makes this game such a draw for players?

It would be easier to explain why crap players love to get 10-1 odds , then piss that edge away on other bets ??

Baccarat is far and away my favorite table game, and has been for years now. I spend far more time at the Baccarat table than I do playing all other casino games combined, and I like a number of different games (especially Asian games).

I like that the game tends to be kind of off by itself and exclusive, usually in its own room or in the high-limit room, or at least roped off. I prefer when it has its own room, with the Las Vegas Hilton being my favorite now that the Stardust is gone. I really like the way the staff pulls out my chair for me, and I like all the pointless ritual. I think that it's fun to squeeze and bend the cards. I like the slow pace of the game, and I really like the "purity" of it in that there are no strategic decisions to be made by the player, so it's pure money-management. Baccarat tournaments can be really interesting for exactly this reason; they tend to come down to who manages their money best. On a related note, I like that they let you take notes, and even give you pens and paper.

Baccarat accounts for a large chunk of the Macau casinos' revenue, being an enormously popular game that everyone plays rather than being the black-chip-minimum game that it often is here (at least for big table). Check out the crowd at the midi Baccarat table in Macau:



They're dressed like the people I see playing carnival games here.

Quote: Paradigm

Are bacc players looking for more volatility than the base game provides or, is it like BJ, where hard core players are rarely interested in side bets with a higher house edge but greater volatility? Would a more volatile Bacc side bet with a maximum payout of 100, 500 or 1000 to 1 be something Bacc players would want to play?

Sometimes hardcore players (myself included) will bet a side bet they know to have lousy odds if they feel like they're on a streak. It's fun when you're right, and there isn't a huge amount of excitement in the game otherwise, so it can be break things up during long sessions. The Tie bet is the same way; everybody knows it's a sucker bet, but when you've got a huge stack of chips on one of the main bets anyway, why not toss just a couple on Tie just in case? Like I said, it can be fun, even if it isn't the most sound betting.

(1) I thought Baccarat was originated from France, picked up by Asian players (and James Bond). It’s still popular in Europe.

(2) I just came back from Macau, eyewitnesses a session of Baccarat at L’Arc. Right after the panel showed:
Player-Banker-Banker-Banker-Banke-Player-Banker-Banke-Banke-Banke-Player,

more than 30 bets (about USD 50,000) were placed on the Banker and none on Player. All 8 bet positions were to the max. And then the Banker won the next, the next for 4 times and then Player won once, like before. The whole cycle of "Player-4x Banker" got repeated one more time. When players expected Banker to win, they bet $5,000, when they expected Player to win they bet HK100 ($15). Within less than 30 minutes, the house must have paid out about $50,000 x 4 x 2 = $400,000. It’s hard to call this game boring!!! Then the dealer changed and the chain broke, everyone lost one time and walked away. It's exciting!!!

Quote: RoyalBJ

(2) I just came back from Macau, eyewitnesses a session of Baccarat at L’Arc. Right after the panel showed:
Player-Banker-Banker-Banker-Banke-Player-Banker-Banke-Banke-Banke-Player,
more than 30 bets (about USD 50,000) were placed on the Banker and none on Player. All 8 bet positions were to the max. And then the Banker won the next, the next for 4 times and then Player won once, like before. The whole cycle of "Player-4x Banker" got repeated one more time. When players expected Banker to win, they bet $5,000, when they expected Player to win they bet HK100 ($15). Within less than 30 minutes, the house must have paid out about $50,000 x 4 x 2 = $400,000. It’s hard to call this game boring!!! Then the dealer changed and the chain broke, everyone lost one time and walked away. It's exciting!!!

I've seen whole shoes with similar patterns. Those are the type of things you hope for. With a table of big bettors, it is easy to clean out the tray and another fill besides.

From the above two quotes I am hearing that "pattern watching/predicting" is a big part of the enjoyment of the game. This sounds similar to Roulette players, except we are talking about patterns of a wheel/ball vs. patterns of the shoe/cards.

I wonder if Baccarat players would get the same type of enjoyment out of Red/Black bets on a roulette wheel if the house edge on roulette was magically reduced to 1% like it is in baccarat? Or is "pattern watching/predicting" device specific for players? That is some people enjoy watching the number patterns as a result of a wheel and a ball and others prefer to watch patterns develop as cards come out of an 8 deck shoe but each individual is fairly devoted to their device of choice.

I think all games get exciting if you had $50K collectively riding on the hand as a table community. There is likely a stronger sense of community at a baccarat table as the players that bet together win or lose together due to community nature of the hands/cards. This is somewhat similar to the sense of community that develops at a craps table for all players betting on the line when a point is rolled.

I have read that there is some etiquette to bet with the big player at the table. Is that "etiquette rule" fairly rigid or is it kind of like the Don't players in craps where they typically stand to one side of the dealer and make their bets from the corner and as long as they don't jump up and down when the 7 hits, they are mostly left alone?

I am definitely going to have to watch more baccarat the next time I am in Vegas to see these nuances play out.

I wish I knew what the hell those people were scribbling. I might be inclined to pay Baccarat more, if it wasn't so damn slow because of the scriblers! On the flip side, making one bet every five minutes is a great way to make the bankroll last a long time.

For what it's worth, Baccarat history displays, similar to Roulette displays, are starting to pop up. I've also stumbled upon one vendor website selling a history display for Craps! What's next? Big 6?

Quote:

if the house edge on roulette was magically reduced to 1%...

What about single zero? That's 2.7%, but people still play double zero.

Don't Craps bettors stand next to the dealer rather than the stick, because that's where the Don't Come box is. Why isn't there another Don't Come box near the stick? Does the field box need to be so big?

>Don't Craps bettors stand next to the dealer rather than the stick, because that's where the Don't Come box is.
Often, though at Terribles one of the dealers borrowed a hooker's straight-edge razor and zapped off the words, leaving just the box.
>Why isn't there another Don't Come box near the stick?
The house discourages good bets or bets that depress other player's enthusism.

> Does the field box need to be so big?
Yes. Large, prominent, easily reachable. After all, its 5.46 or something like that isn't it?

As to Baccarat, I too enjoy the "trappings" of Evening hours, Semi-formal attire, a chandelier, an alcove somewhere, Hot Chick in Evening Gown shill, Handsome Young Man in Evening Dress shill, etc. Now some of this has disappeared of late and I play Mini-Bacc now which is on the casino floor or in the Asian Games section. No shills, no Evening Gowns, no Tuxedos. Alas.

Its similar to a slot machine: except the dealer presses the little red button for you. I don't think the third card possibilities add to the excitement the way an additional reel on a slot might. People playing Mini-Bacc just wait for the results.

Antics and too slow a pace don't interest me. Too much Asian conversation annoys me sometimes. Basically I just like it when I win.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I wish I knew what the hell those people were scribbling. I might be inclined to pay Baccarat more,

The Asians tend to try and make sense of
the 8's and 9's totals as they appear. It
doesn't matter, they're still not any good
at it, they lose a lot. Its like a bad melodramatic
play, with lots of fake emotions and drama
when they win or lose. Its a social event to
them.

Quote: Paradigm

From the above two quotes I am hearing that "pattern watching/predicting" is a big part of the enjoyment of the game. This sounds similar to Roulette players, except we are talking about patterns of a wheel/ball vs. patterns of the shoe/cards.

I wonder if Baccarat players would get the same type of enjoyment out of Red/Black bets on a roulette wheel if the house edge on roulette was magically reduced to 1% like it is in baccarat? Or is "pattern watching/predicting" device specific for players?

You don't know the half of it. There are two major systems for Baccarat pattern prediction. The Western system (can't think what it's called right now) is your standard LED lights showing whether Banker, Player, or Tie won the last two dozen hands or so, similar to Roulette history displays. There is also the Macau system, which is what you hear people who hang out in Baccarat rooms talking about (I think that this is probably the best description available in English), and what those "scribblers" are scribbling. It is incredibly fun to use if you can wrap your head around it. Some casinos show both systems on their Baccarat history displays. Online casinos with live dealers, especially those targeting Far Eastern players, will often have the history displayed using both systems, which is very cool (IMO).

I definitely feel like people who take the prediction system seriously would not feel like it could be adapted to Roulette. Personally, I just use the Macau system for scoring, to keep track of when I've won and lost, and don't honestly expect it to be able to predict the next (or any) hand. I just think that it's fun to use. People who take it seriously will tell you that it has to do with the composition of the shoe and probably wouldn't think it applicable to Roulette spins. I always wonder whether those people missed the ten-minute part of the game where all the cards were being pushed all around on the table, leaving no possibility of the cards ending up in any order other than "random".

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Don't Craps bettors stand next to the dealer rather than the stick, because that's where the Don't Come box is. Why isn't there another Don't Come box near the stick? Does the field box need to be so big?

Check out a northern Nevada layout some time. This is one reason I like playing there.

Thanks Heather, that link was really helpful in understanding those LCD screens that I have never understood.

The fact that each shoe is a separate road map is likely the reason this pattern watching doesn't translate to Roulette. There is no end of shoe at a Roulette table......the wheel has an unlimited number of spins and you won't know when to start a new road map.

Same holds true for Continuous Shuffler Machines.....my guess is they don't use these on baccarat tables as it would take away the pattern watching part of the game for players.

I took a look at Shufflemaster's iScore display and it had all the different Road Format's discussed in your link but it did use Pig for a couple of them (i.e. Little Pig vs. Little Road & Cockroach Pig vs. Cockroach Road).

It also had something called "Asian Dice History". Is that a Sic Bo result tracking display (i.e. like what many Roulette tables have)? Do Sic Bo players look for patterns in dice rolls?

Quote: Paradigm

Same holds true for Continuous Shuffler Machines.....my guess is they don't use these on baccarat tables as it would take away the pattern watching part of the game for players.

And it would eliminate the pointless ritual of the big-table shuffle, which casinos probably already hate because it takes forever and nobody's betting during it, but I feel like the pointless ritual is part of what you're paying for with the higher minimums if you want to play big table Baccarat. And, as I probably mentioned earlier, all the pointless ritual is part of what I like about the game. (Also why online Baccarat is hardly any fun. Not that I don't occasionally play online; I'm just saying that it's a lot less fun. Although Pinnacle will at least let you choose your seat and pass the shoe, which is neat.)

Quote: Paradigm

It also had something called "Asian Dice History". Is that a Sic Bo result tracking display (i.e. like what many Roulette tables have)? Do Sic Bo players look for patterns in dice rolls?

Oh, yes; absolutely. Every Sic bo table I've ever played at has had a history display, as far as I recall. I think I've actually got pictures of a few unusual sequences. I've actually found myself glancing at the Sic bo history display a few times, when I couldn't remember how far along in my Martingale I was. ;) But, yes, people do look for patterns in the Sic bo history, and discuss the implications of unrelated past rolls, just like at the Roulette table.

I know that some of the American Baccarat dealers didn't like having to learn the Chinese annunciator panel method and the symbol for monkey or whatever it is they added. It just shows that the casino will pander to any nonsensical system as long as it keeps people bringing money into the casino and wagering it.

So many orientals simply follow the chip leader even if he is whimsically betting on ties. I often wonder what they are jabbering about but at least they don't end every sentence by gesturing to me and saying "el gringo".

Quote: FleaStiff

So many orientals simply follow the chip leader

'Orientals'? LOL! Thats so politically incorrect, you
can't be serious. Its 'Asians' now, you're Canadian
these days, so we forgive you..

So teddys,

Do you think that following patterns could help you win in the game of Baccarat? Or at least cut your losses. :)

Quote: FleaStiff

So many orientals simply follow the chip leader even if he is whimsically betting on ties. I often wonder what they are jabbering about but at least they don't end every sentence by gesturing to me and saying "el gringo".

If Latinos are calling you "gringo", it's because they want you to understand what they're saying. In any other context, the word would be "gabacho" or "fresa" or "idiota" or "turista" or "blanco" etc. Only gringos call gringos gringos.

Quote: EvenBob

'Orientals'? LOL! Thats so politically incorrect, you
can't be serious. Its 'Asians' now,

Since we've descended into word-definition anyway, I'll note that "Orient" includes Africa while "Asia" does not. They describe slightly different things.

Quote: BacSup

So teddys,

Do you think that following patterns could help you win in the game of Baccarat? Or at least cut your losses. :)

Absolutely not! I don't play a lot, and when I do, I mostly bet on banker. But it is fun to watch a patterned shoe and the big bettors clean up.

Is "Asians" an acceptable term to use......I feel self conscious when I use that term as well. Trying to be politically correct/not wanting to offend anyone, I have use "Eastern" as well. I am always afraid of using the wrong term out of ignorance and offending someone when my intention is to communicate a particular region/nationality/group of folks originating from a similar area/culture.

I always try to be politically correct but sometimes I just don't stand a Chinaman's chance.

So I got a chance to look at some bacc in the Palms Asian Game Pit while on my G2E trip. They game was played at the 7 person table (i.e. not the big table, but bigger than a standard BJ table) that was normal chair height as opposed to bar stool height of BJ tables. Players were able to handle the cards so I am not sure if this version is termed midi or mini baccarat.

Cards were destroyed on every hand, table minimum was $50 I believe, it was a Wednesday night at around 8:30PM and the pit was not particularly busy. The pit wasn't roped off so I stood and watched 5 or so hands. It did offer the Dragon Bonus bet and that seemed to be getting some consistent action.

So technically was this a midi bacc table or a mini bacc table? Is mini bacc played at an even small BJ table with dealer handling all the cards? Seems like I have seen these larger 1/2 bacc tables @ normal chair height (i.e. lower than bar stool height BJ tables) where players were not allowed to touch cards either. So is difference between midi and mini whether or not the players get to handle the cards? Or the size of the table? Or are the terms sometimes interchangeable or ?

Finally, with only one player getting to handle the cards, it seems like the rest of the players at the table were in no better position than they would have been in a dealer dealt game. Since only one player at a 7 player game gets to handle the cards, why is handling the cards such an important feature in the game when the majority of the players at the table don't get to handle the cards?

It is midi-bacc, what you saw at the Palms.

Midi usually includes at least two factors: large low seven-person table and players get to handle the cards.

If you are missing either of those two elements, it may still be called midi-bacc but in fact it should be mini-bacc.

Mini-bacc is traditionally played at a high blackjack table and the dealer handles all the cards.

Midi-bacc is preferable for the player because the pace of play is slower and you lose less. The biggest bettor on either player or banker is allowed to open the cards.

Thanks Teddy's!

Sounds like I have seen mini-bacc (dealer handled all cards) played at the low table before. Believe they called it mini-bacc as well. I like the low tables for baccarat as it sets the game apart (although there are usually one low BJ table in each casino that are wheel chair accessible).

I bet that mini-bacc at a BJ sized high table is like card craps in CA......really distained by ardent craps fans!

Quote: heather

And it would eliminate the pointless ritual of the big-table shuffle, which casinos probably already hate because it takes forever and nobody's betting during it, but I feel like the pointless ritual is part of what you're paying for with the higher minimums if you want to play big table Baccarat.

What exactly is the shuffling ritual? In PA, they have true midi-baccarat but the cards come in pre-shuffled 8-deck bricks, so literally they tear off the security wrapper, cut the brick, and drop it into the shoe. Is the shuffling more complicated than a standard blackjack shuffle?

Quote: FleaStiff

I always try to be politically correct but sometimes I just don't stand a Chinaman's chance.

W. C Fields "I suspect there is an Indonesian in the fuel supply."