FYI. AC Can Now Ban AP Players.
January 2nd, 2012 at 1:36:47 PM
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Quote: KeyserI don't think Mr. Jjj liked the answer.
(lol).....you should talk. You answer maybe one of every 30 questions, 80% of your answers are LIES and when you do answer, its like three months later.
Ken
January 2nd, 2012 at 1:44:44 PM
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And we allow this punk kid to post on this board because?
January 2nd, 2012 at 1:55:55 PM
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Quote: KeyserAnd we allow this punk kid to post on this board because?
I think perhaps Keyser just does not like the answer. (Sound familiar?)
The *TRUTH* being (here or any board), I'm the ONLY person that consistently calls you on your BS claims. Shut me up and you would be a God in the roulette community. Nope, not on my watch. BTW, 6 days remaining. tic toc goes the clock.
Ken
January 2nd, 2012 at 3:46:32 PM
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Perhaps you can point to a claim that is BS?
January 3rd, 2012 at 4:59:35 AM
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Quote: KeyserPerhaps you can point to a claim that is BS?
That New Jersey law has changed on casinos' "banning" bettors. As the discussion in August demonstrated, the salient example of Don Johnson only went so far as to show that he had been "turned away" by Resorts and the Taj, not banned. In such a case, it is more than understandable to those of us here that a casino would shy away from offering a 20 percent rebate to any bettor, notably in this instance such a high roller.
No doubt that the state's easing of its regulations has changed quite a few conditions on the gambling floor. But the Uston case continues to prevail as the law until such time as, say, an advantage player who thinks he was illegally banned brings a case. So far as can be determined, no one has done that. If that new policy has been effect for some time, this natural question arises, "Why hasn't anyone challenged it?"
January 3rd, 2012 at 9:22:10 AM
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...double post
January 3rd, 2012 at 12:18:27 PM
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Quote: KeyserIt's really quite simple.Take a stroll down the AC coast and ask the dealers and pit if the casino has been banning some gamblers.
And you'll find out they won't tell you squat. I've
asked this question in Vegas many times and in
local casinos, and gotten either vague or no answer
at all. What I have been told is its none of my business,
or they're not allowed to give out that kind of info for
fear of losing their jobs.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 3rd, 2012 at 6:26:39 PM
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Quote: KeyserIt's really quite simple. Take a stroll down the AC coast and ask the dealers and pit if the casino has been banning some gamblers.
I have done that with some figures whom I knew fairly well and others I don't. Not one has even mentioned rumors.
But the fundamental fact remains that if any of the aggrieved parties felt that they had a leg to stand on they would take a more public action, through regulators, through court cases, through the press or, you might daresay, through forums like this one. After all, they would have nothing to lose, especially ensconced in the cloak of anonymity in a place like this.
January 3rd, 2012 at 6:26:48 PM
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double post
January 3rd, 2012 at 10:29:56 PM
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double
January 5th, 2012 at 6:34:04 AM
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And although 8,600 people will now grumble about possibly being 86'ed in Atlantic City, in fact not even 86 players will actually be affected by this. Right now the casinos have more to lose than to gain by backing someone off big time.Quote: KeyserThis means they can now 86 you if they don't like your action.
Besides,,, I think this "advantage player" stuff is somewhat like a Controlled Shooter in craps. Lots of talk. Little actual existence.
January 8th, 2012 at 1:40:13 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffAnd although 8,600 people will now grumble about possibly being 86'ed in Atlantic City, in fact not even 86 players will actually be affected by this. Right now the casinos have more to lose than to gain by backing someone off big time.
Besides,,, I think this "advantage player" stuff is somewhat like a Controlled Shooter in craps. Lots of talk. Little actual existence.
"Lots of talk. Little actual existence" >>> I agree 100%. Great in theory, nothing more.
Ken
January 8th, 2012 at 11:45:01 AM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 8th, 2012 at 11:49:28 AM
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Quote: FleastiffBesides,,, I think this "advantage player" stuff is somewhat like a Controlled Shooter in craps. Lots of talk. Little actual existence.
You know, that's what Steve Wynn use to think as well. The Argentinian Dice crew took him for a ride - costing him over 700k.
"What is a dice slide? Source: http://www.worldgameprotection.com/the-catwalk/casino-ology/BOSVIEW/Anatomy-of-the-Dice-Slide-Everything-You-Need-to-Know/
Most gaming people still believe a dice slide scam consists of a cheater sliding two dice down the length of the table, always face up and never turning or rotating. This is not true. First, a “throw” in this matter would be easily identifiable, not only by the casino employees but by the other players at the table. The dice cheater does not want the “slide” to look obvious and wants to conduct the sleight-of-hand-scam without detection. Second, based on properties of physics, a die that slides with absolutely no horizontal rotation, travels across the felt layout in a very unstable manner, and will have a tendency to “trip” or turn over. The more the die rotates or “spins”, the more likely it will maintain its level glide down the table and if it hits an object such as chips or the point marker (puck), the die won’t tip over.
From my experience, the dice slide must have an element of deception while at the same time providing the cheater with a high degree of outcome accuracy. In almost all cases, the cheaters attempt to control only one die. The second die, bouncing and hopping randomly, transfers some of the attention away from the die that is not. In addition, the more successful slides incorporate a slight-of-hand manipulation to “spin” the die. The die is spun by the cheater through a ‘finger snapping” method. This creates spin which greatly increases the die’s stability while sliding down the layout. It adds an element of deception to the die’s appearance as well." For more, continue reading
http://www.worldgameprotection.com/the-catwalk/casino-ology/BOSVIEW/Anatomy-of-the-Dice-Slide-Everything-You-Need-to-Know/
January 8th, 2012 at 11:49:36 AM
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double post
January 8th, 2012 at 12:11:18 PM
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Your quoted article says that dice sliding is cheating. Your first sentence, by implication, suggests that a dice slider is an advantage player. By transitivity, you believe that advantage play is cheating. Do you actually think that? If not, where do you draw the line between illegal cheating and legal advantage play?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 8th, 2012 at 12:38:26 PM
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For starters, the team wasn't really "sliding" the dice. They were using a controlled type of throw. Had they actually been sliding the dice, they would have likely been prosecuted. Even though the team was arrested, the charges were later dropped and they were not found guilty of cheating. Therefore, I do not consider them to be "cheaters". The Wynn is now attempting to get the money back in a civil suit. To me, this entire thing smells like bad faith on the part of the Wynn. I also believe that they have slandered the players by calling them "dice sliders".
Cheaters and AP players are not the same. AP players operate within the law. Cheaters do not.
Cheaters and AP players are not the same. AP players operate within the law. Cheaters do not.
January 8th, 2012 at 2:05:51 PM
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The accounts I've read said that the shooter was indeed using a slide -- one die tumbles, the other die rotates rapidly around the Z (vertical) axis, so it spins and skids down the table but the upward face remains upward the whole time. In fact, the Bill Zender article you quoted characterizes team's actions as sliding. Zender is a well-regarded game protection expert -- why do you dispute his characterization?
Regardless of what you want to call the throw they used, is it your opinion that it is cheating?
Regardless of what you want to call the throw they used, is it your opinion that it is cheating?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 8th, 2012 at 2:06:34 PM
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A couple of curious excerpts from Zender's essay:
"Giving policy and procedure concessions to high rolling customer is an invitation for a serious loss."
Yes, we can spell Don Johnson's 20 percent.
-----
"One big question I hear from executives is “Is sliding the dice illegal?” Yes, it is! However, it’s not a simple yes or no answer. Certain elements must be in place before it’s considered cheating in the State of Nevada. In 1994, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled in the case of Skipper vs. the State of Nevada. A lower court had convicted Hubert Skipper of cheating at dice. Skipper’s attorney appealed based on the State Supreme Court’s rule on handle popping in slot machines. His argument was that the casino requires a player to throw the dice down the table and also has the ability to call “no roll” if the throw is not considered a valid roll. Given this option, the casino should have simply “no rolled” Skipper instead of arresting him.
The Nevada Supreme Court reviewed the case and came up with the following finding upholding the lower court decision that dice sliding was cheating:
While playing craps at two different gaming establishments in Reno, Skipper was videotaped throwing the dice in a manner that is colloquially referred to as “dice sliding.” As the term implies, dice sliding occurs when one or both of the dice slides down the table without tumbling or otherwise altering the number(s) preselected by the gambler to face upward. Dice sliding is a difficult manipulation because it requires both dexterity of the fingers and the aid of an inattentive or collaborating craps dealer or, as here, an accomplice who is able to obscure the dealer's view of play. The surveillance tapes admitted into evidence show that this person’s occasional attempts to slide a die (some of which were successful) were preceded by changes in his betting pattern and manner of throw. Additionally, Skipper refrained from such attempts whenever the floor boss was watching the game. More importantly, the tapes show that this person’s method of play was aided by a confederate who sought to block the dealer's view of the sliding die.
The game of craps understandably involves players who throw the dice in accordance with the rules of play. The rules of play require the “roll” of the dice, thus resulting in the dice either tumbling or bouncing off the end of the table as a result of the player's throw. The evidence adduced at trial indicated that craps dealers are trained to call a “no roll” unless the dice are thrown in the manner described. Thus players who may accidently slide the dice simply have their play nullified by the dealer's call. Skipper, however, sought to prevent the dealer from detecting and invalidating his method of play by utilizing a confederate to obscure the dealer's vision. In effect, Skipper was blindfolding the dealer while placing the dice on the table in a winning combination. This method of altering the elements of chance clearly constitutes cheating. Innocent players would not engage in this type of deceptive, manipulated play.
-------------
The video is at youtube.
"Giving policy and procedure concessions to high rolling customer is an invitation for a serious loss."
Yes, we can spell Don Johnson's 20 percent.
-----
"One big question I hear from executives is “Is sliding the dice illegal?” Yes, it is! However, it’s not a simple yes or no answer. Certain elements must be in place before it’s considered cheating in the State of Nevada. In 1994, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled in the case of Skipper vs. the State of Nevada. A lower court had convicted Hubert Skipper of cheating at dice. Skipper’s attorney appealed based on the State Supreme Court’s rule on handle popping in slot machines. His argument was that the casino requires a player to throw the dice down the table and also has the ability to call “no roll” if the throw is not considered a valid roll. Given this option, the casino should have simply “no rolled” Skipper instead of arresting him.
The Nevada Supreme Court reviewed the case and came up with the following finding upholding the lower court decision that dice sliding was cheating:
While playing craps at two different gaming establishments in Reno, Skipper was videotaped throwing the dice in a manner that is colloquially referred to as “dice sliding.” As the term implies, dice sliding occurs when one or both of the dice slides down the table without tumbling or otherwise altering the number(s) preselected by the gambler to face upward. Dice sliding is a difficult manipulation because it requires both dexterity of the fingers and the aid of an inattentive or collaborating craps dealer or, as here, an accomplice who is able to obscure the dealer's view of play. The surveillance tapes admitted into evidence show that this person’s occasional attempts to slide a die (some of which were successful) were preceded by changes in his betting pattern and manner of throw. Additionally, Skipper refrained from such attempts whenever the floor boss was watching the game. More importantly, the tapes show that this person’s method of play was aided by a confederate who sought to block the dealer's view of the sliding die.
The game of craps understandably involves players who throw the dice in accordance with the rules of play. The rules of play require the “roll” of the dice, thus resulting in the dice either tumbling or bouncing off the end of the table as a result of the player's throw. The evidence adduced at trial indicated that craps dealers are trained to call a “no roll” unless the dice are thrown in the manner described. Thus players who may accidently slide the dice simply have their play nullified by the dealer's call. Skipper, however, sought to prevent the dealer from detecting and invalidating his method of play by utilizing a confederate to obscure the dealer's vision. In effect, Skipper was blindfolding the dealer while placing the dice on the table in a winning combination. This method of altering the elements of chance clearly constitutes cheating. Innocent players would not engage in this type of deceptive, manipulated play.
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The video is at youtube.
January 8th, 2012 at 2:22:46 PM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI do too and I AM an AP. I would say for every one of me, there are at least 100,000 typical losing gamblers. Very few of us out there.
There it is again. This is the part where I'm suppose to bow down or something. (lol)
Ken
January 8th, 2012 at 2:25:02 PM
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That's a really interesting legal conclusion. What would the conclusion re: cheating be for:
a) A shooter who is intentionally trying to slide the dice, and is predominantly successful (a la Skipper), but who is not using an accomplice?
b) A shooter who is intentionally trying to slide the dice, but is predominantly unsuccessful?
c) A shooter who is intentionally trying to control the dice via another technique (not sliding) but who is predominantly unsuccessful?
You see where I'm going with this -- just about everyone who plays dice falls under category (c)...
To me, it's a slippery slope between the NV Supreme Court decision that "sliding with an accomplice is illegal" and "everyone who sets the dice and attempts to control them is a felon". Is the legal conclusion necessarily that everyone who sets the dice in attempt to control them is "attempting to cheat"? It's certainly not the practical conclusion, nor the facts on the ground -- so how/where do you draw the line?
a) A shooter who is intentionally trying to slide the dice, and is predominantly successful (a la Skipper), but who is not using an accomplice?
b) A shooter who is intentionally trying to slide the dice, but is predominantly unsuccessful?
c) A shooter who is intentionally trying to control the dice via another technique (not sliding) but who is predominantly unsuccessful?
You see where I'm going with this -- just about everyone who plays dice falls under category (c)...
Quote: NRS 465.088
Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive (this includes "cheating").
...
2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he or she personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.
To me, it's a slippery slope between the NV Supreme Court decision that "sliding with an accomplice is illegal" and "everyone who sets the dice and attempts to control them is a felon". Is the legal conclusion necessarily that everyone who sets the dice in attempt to control them is "attempting to cheat"? It's certainly not the practical conclusion, nor the facts on the ground -- so how/where do you draw the line?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 8th, 2012 at 2:32:15 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
January 8th, 2012 at 3:16:54 PM
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There's been no study that concludes that a person is actually able to control the dice through setting and "controlled throwing", which is a legal throw. The casino will happily let people think that they are controlling the dice bet, knowing that they have the legal right to back off anyone who is playing at an advantage (just like counters) and to prosecute blatant cheating (like the sliders).
Sliding, which has the effect of definitely setting a die, is absolutely illegal. You can simply bet a six number hops bet (6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-6) and pick up $10 for each $6 bet because the result of one die is known. Controlling the dice through setting and hitting the back wall has not at all been shown to be accurate enough to overcome the house advantage.
Think of sliding as always being able to pull an Ace or Face Card in blackjack. With an ace, you have a 50% house advantage. With a face card, you have a 14% advantage. if you were somehow able to make sure that your first card was an ace or face every time, the casino would prosecute you. Sliding's the same thing. The "skill" of counting is about the same as the "skill" of dice controlling. Casinos allow it because most people can't do either well, and have the power to back off those who are too skillful, and prosecute those going 'over the line'.
Sliding, which has the effect of definitely setting a die, is absolutely illegal. You can simply bet a six number hops bet (6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 6-6) and pick up $10 for each $6 bet because the result of one die is known. Controlling the dice through setting and hitting the back wall has not at all been shown to be accurate enough to overcome the house advantage.
Think of sliding as always being able to pull an Ace or Face Card in blackjack. With an ace, you have a 50% house advantage. With a face card, you have a 14% advantage. if you were somehow able to make sure that your first card was an ace or face every time, the casino would prosecute you. Sliding's the same thing. The "skill" of counting is about the same as the "skill" of dice controlling. Casinos allow it because most people can't do either well, and have the power to back off those who are too skillful, and prosecute those going 'over the line'.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 8th, 2012 at 3:21:44 PM
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Dice control.
A bias wheel.
Fantasy land sure is fun.
Ken
A bias wheel.
Fantasy land sure is fun.
Ken
January 8th, 2012 at 4:08:31 PM
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The Argentinean team was investigated after gaming reviewed the tapes and they were not charged with a crime. Dice setters are still allowed to openly set the dice at most tables around the US.
Dice control is most certainly not illegally and it's absurd to argue otherwise. Again, as I've said several times in the past, this case is really about bad faith on the part of the Wynn. Times are tough, and the new game at Caesars Palace and the Wynn is to dispute the larger wins to reduce casino losses. The practice is truly disgusting. More people need to be made aware of these predatory gambling practices.
-Keyser
Dice control is most certainly not illegally and it's absurd to argue otherwise. Again, as I've said several times in the past, this case is really about bad faith on the part of the Wynn. Times are tough, and the new game at Caesars Palace and the Wynn is to dispute the larger wins to reduce casino losses. The practice is truly disgusting. More people need to be made aware of these predatory gambling practices.
-Keyser
January 8th, 2012 at 4:55:45 PM
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Quote: KeyserTimes are tough, and the new game at Caesars Palace and the Wynn is to dispute the larger wins to reduce casino losses. The practice is truly disgusting. More people need to be made aware of these predatory gambling practices.
More and more casinos are controlling profits by
customer profiling. They even call it profiling. If
they can control non profit players by cutting off
their comps, and tie up big wins of high stakes
players, they're more than willing to do it. Its all
about bottom line now, the gloves are off. They
have the gambling commissions in every state
behind them, what do they have to lose.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 8th, 2012 at 5:15:18 PM
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Quote: KeyserThe Argentinean team was investigated after gaming reviewed the tapes and they were not charged with a crime. Dice setters are still allowed to openly set the dice at most tables around the US.
Dice control is most certainly not illegally and it's absurd to argue otherwise. Again, as I've said several times in the past, this case is really about bad faith on the part of the Wynn. Times are tough, and the new game at Caesars Palace and the Wynn is to dispute the larger wins to reduce casino losses. The practice is truly disgusting. More people need to be made aware of these predatory gambling practices.
-Keyser
Dice setting is okay at most places, that is not a problem so as long as dice are not manipulated after release, and have an uncontrolled (airborn) travel to the back wall.
Wynn was acting questionably if they "okayed" open dice sliding to happen, then complained after allowing it. This destroyed their position in others' eyes, apparently.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
January 8th, 2012 at 5:36:11 PM
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There's something else that I need to point out to people. When someone is banned from a casino, the banned person's name is NOT added to some kind of state list. No such list exists. Many people confuse the "excluded, wanted, or denied list" with what they believe to be some kind of "banning" list. I believe this is also what confused Sancho near the beginning of the thread.
Regarding gaming commission investigations. When there is a casino/patron dispute, the dispute is NOT made public. If the casino chooses to appeal the decision of the gaming officer, this too is not published. It's only when the full commission hears the dispute that you may find a listing of it on the gaming controls website. Attorneys advice their clients not to disclose the dispute to the press because it can piss off the gaming officials.
These days, there appears to be more large wins that are being disputed by the casinos. By exploiting the casino/patron dispute process, casinos can delay paying out the wins for an extended period of time, potential forcing the player to settle for something less by using such delay tactics with their attorneys. Unfortunately such disputes are not published on the state website or made available to the general public in any manner. I believe that they should be made public. I'd like to see someone like the LV Bear pursue it. I would like to see him disclose what appears to be the "bad faith". Only because of personnel experience with the process, gaming attorneys, and other gambler's have I become aware of these predatory gaming practices.
-Keyser
Regarding gaming commission investigations. When there is a casino/patron dispute, the dispute is NOT made public. If the casino chooses to appeal the decision of the gaming officer, this too is not published. It's only when the full commission hears the dispute that you may find a listing of it on the gaming controls website. Attorneys advice their clients not to disclose the dispute to the press because it can piss off the gaming officials.
These days, there appears to be more large wins that are being disputed by the casinos. By exploiting the casino/patron dispute process, casinos can delay paying out the wins for an extended period of time, potential forcing the player to settle for something less by using such delay tactics with their attorneys. Unfortunately such disputes are not published on the state website or made available to the general public in any manner. I believe that they should be made public. I'd like to see someone like the LV Bear pursue it. I would like to see him disclose what appears to be the "bad faith". Only because of personnel experience with the process, gaming attorneys, and other gambler's have I become aware of these predatory gaming practices.
-Keyser
January 8th, 2012 at 6:31:26 PM
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How casinos register every player they banned and the cause of the ban?
I supose the player is not allowed to enter any same connected casino.
They must take pics and check IDs and inform others of the predatory activity.
I guess many players are banned for misbehaving too, such us being drunk, violence against machines or being rude to any person of the pit.
The trick seems to remain unknown.
APs use different techniques to get what they want.
Their main plan for them is to stay the longer before being detected.
I supose the player is not allowed to enter any same connected casino.
They must take pics and check IDs and inform others of the predatory activity.
I guess many players are banned for misbehaving too, such us being drunk, violence against machines or being rude to any person of the pit.
The trick seems to remain unknown.
APs use different techniques to get what they want.
Their main plan for them is to stay the longer before being detected.
January 8th, 2012 at 6:43:08 PM
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Quote: ybotHow casinos register every player they banned and the cause of the ban?
I supose the player is not allowed to enter any same connected casino.
They must take pics and check IDs and inform others of the predatory activity.
I guess many players are banned for misbehaving too, such us being drunk, violence against machines or being rude to any person of the pit.
The trick seems to remain unknown.
APs use different techniques to get what they want.
Their main plan for them is to stay the longer before being detected.
Casinos are not required to state a reason for banning a player. They are also not required to notify anyone. Not all casinos ban a patron from every casino within the chain of casinos. For example, if you are banned from one MGM property it does not mean that you are banned from all MGM properties. However, if you are banned from one Caesar's/Harrah's property then you are banned from all their properties.
January 8th, 2012 at 7:32:04 PM
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Quote: boymimbo"controlled throwing" ... is a legal throw.
...
Sliding ... is absolutely illegal.
The law in Nevada is very explicit: "attempting to alter the criteria which determine the frequency of payment in a game is a felony".
A shooter picks up the dice, manipulates them in his or her hand, and releases them toward the far side of the table. Are you suggesting the legality of this action depends on the specific manipulation and release? There is nothing in the law that remotely hinges on such a distinction.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 8th, 2012 at 7:47:52 PM
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MathExtremist,
If the team was actually breaking the law, then gaming officials would have filed charges against them. After having viewed the recorded action of the players, no charges were filed.
Maybe you should contact gaming and inform them that they are in error.
If the team was actually breaking the law, then gaming officials would have filed charges against them. After having viewed the recorded action of the players, no charges were filed.
Maybe you should contact gaming and inform them that they are in error.
January 8th, 2012 at 7:57:04 PM
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I'm not as bold as you -- I don't pretend to know what the proper legal conclusion is. However, on October 12, 2011, I sent the following email to Clark County ADA Chris Owens dainfo (at) ccdanv.com:
I never received a reply.
Quote: my letter
Dear Mr. Owens,
I am writing in response to the recent incidence of dice sliding in craps reported at the Wynn Las Vegas casino. I have a question as to how to interpret certain provisions of NRS 465. Specifically, NRS 465.015 says:
1. “Cheat” means to alter the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:
(a) The result of a game;
(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;
I am curious as to whether there has been any caselaw or other statutory interpretation of the meaning of the word "alter" in that statute. In a first interpretation, "alter" means to physically change, such as by replacing fair dice in a craps game with toppers or loads -- and as such, a skilled method of throwing fair dice (such as sliding) would not be cheating under this statute. In a second interpretation, "alter" means to change the end results -- and as such, any skilled method of throwing the dice which results in a different probability distribution than standard dice would be cheating, even if done with fair dice. For example, a successful dice slide with one die staying face up on the number six would change the probability distribution from the standard odds (p(2) = 1/36, p(3) = 2/36, etc.) to one where the probability of numbers 7 through 12 is 1/6 each and the probability of numbers 2 through 6 is zero. I want to know if that would be "altering" per the meaning of NRS 465.015, specifically since the dice probabilities are what "determine ... (b) the ... frequency of payment" in the game of casino craps.
In short, I'd like to know your office's position on whether dice sliding or any other technique for skilfully influencing the results of fair dice (as there are several others) is "cheating", and therefore a felony to execute (or attempt) under NRS 465.
Thank you sincerely for your time.
I never received a reply.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 9th, 2012 at 4:38:25 AM
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Quote: KeyserWhen someone is banned from a casino, the banned person's name is NOT added to some kind of state list. No such list exists. Many people confuse the "excluded, wanted, or denied list" with what they believe to be some kind of "banning" list. I believe this is also what confused Sancho near the beginning of the thread.
So "excluded" does not mean "banned" in your parlance. How unusual!
Quote:These days, there appears to be more large wins that are being disputed by the casinos.
How in the world the poster could know this or even guess at it is beyond imagination.
Quote:Such disputes are not published on the state website or made available to the general public in any manner.
If they are contested in court, they certainly are public record.
January 9th, 2012 at 6:24:47 AM
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The action of dice slidind may be a skill but it needs a big distraction of the pit.
It´s hard to accomplish without pit´s help or innaction.
Dice sliding is at the bounderies of legal and ilegal.
Game Commision acts as they were almighty god, then, not guilty players have their names in the websites as cheaters.
I guess slandered players have the right to sue GC but as everything in life they must wait for their best time to do it.
It´s hard to accomplish without pit´s help or innaction.
Dice sliding is at the bounderies of legal and ilegal.
Game Commision acts as they were almighty god, then, not guilty players have their names in the websites as cheaters.
I guess slandered players have the right to sue GC but as everything in life they must wait for their best time to do it.
January 9th, 2012 at 9:47:09 AM
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Quote: SanchoSo "excluded" does not mean "banned" in your parlance. How unusual!
Sancho,
Of course those people on that list are not allowed in the casinos. Those are people that are banned from ALL of the state's casinos. However the people that are banned by the casinos for card counting, etc. do not appear on those lists. I amazed that you believe otherwise.
Quote: SanchoHow in the world the poster could know this or even guess at it is beyond imagination.
Because I've been in such a situation. I've spoken with gaming attorneys regarding the situation and I've been through the process. I also have acquaintances that have also been through the process or that have worked with parties involved in a dispute.
Quote: SanchoIf they are contested in court, they certainly are public record.
In court, yes. However casino/patron disputes are NOT heard in court.
The process basically works like this: The first to hear a dispute is the gaming officer on duty. He then provides his ruling within I believe 24/48 hours or so. If the casino/patron choose to appeal that decision then it is heard by another a small group. They have 45 days to offer a response in writing. This is NOT a public court room. At these levels, there is no record that the public can go and view. This information is kept private out of public view. Only if the dispute is heard by the full gaming commission will you find record of it on the gaming control website.
The process lasts months and can progress through three administrative layers.
I can understand why you were confused, since the process is rather complicated, and because very few people have any experience with it.
-Keyser
January 10th, 2012 at 11:32:04 AM
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Quote: KeyserIt's really quite simple.
Take a stroll down the AC coast and ask the dealers and pit if the casino has been banning some gamblers.
I did just that this morning. I started with Trump Plaza where you were banned. I asked the pit manager, two pit bosses and several dealers. They were unanimous in saying,"Absolutely not!".
Before I could even finish the question,the pit manager referred to The Wizard of Vegas and said that they have this particular thread on their bulletin boards to read whenever they need a good laugh. The only thing this proves is that casino personnel are reading gambling websites but we already knew that.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
January 10th, 2012 at 1:14:15 PM
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Quote: 1BBI did just that this morning. I started with Trump Plaza where you were banned. I asked the pit manager, two pit bosses and several dealers. They were unanimous in saying,"Absolutely not!".
I told you thats what they'd say. No matter what
occurred they'll tell you nothing happened. Casinos
are very secretive about what they do, keeping
the public ignorant is part of their job. They want
to keep up the charade that they love winners,
when the exact opposite is true.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 10th, 2012 at 1:56:20 PM
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Now THAT'S funny.Quote: 1BBIBefore I could even finish the question,the pit manager referred to The Wizard of Vegas and said that they have this particular thread on their bulletin boards to read whenever they need a good laugh.
But I wonder if they read some of the other AC stuff too.
For example, my extreme disapointment (and that of other players) that the Poker Snack Bar at Taj has closed.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
January 10th, 2012 at 2:02:52 PM
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I'm referring strictly to Don Johnson's case involving BJ and the news. You can look up his articles in the same places that I found them.
January 10th, 2012 at 2:10:40 PM
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Why are casinos any different than any other private company? If I get caught shoplifting in Sears (like when i did at age 13), they told me that i was "blackballed" from all Sears stores. Sears doesn't have to disclose that list to anyone. i was never prosecuted by the police. Why do we hold casinos to standards as if we have the right to enter their property.
When we go onto their premises, we do so at their terms and according to the law. For example, the casino can't prevent you from entering based on your gender, race, sexual preference, etc. The law has rules for fair gaming so that games are fair to the player. The casino has the law to prevent and prosecute cheating. All is fair.
There is of course a gray area of what "cheating" is. It's kind of like rape. If you have sex with a woman against her will, it's rape. However, she has the choice to attempt to prosecute, and might not, if the sex turned out to be good. That is, if you embark on a cheating endeavor, and lose, well, it's better for the casino to keep your money and not charge you. My guess is that dice influence "is" cheating, but the casinos make money from it so they turn a blind eye. I guess the same would be true for insider trading too. If you get stock advice from the inside, act on it, and lose, I doubt the SEC would come after you even if they knew.
When we go onto their premises, we do so at their terms and according to the law. For example, the casino can't prevent you from entering based on your gender, race, sexual preference, etc. The law has rules for fair gaming so that games are fair to the player. The casino has the law to prevent and prosecute cheating. All is fair.
There is of course a gray area of what "cheating" is. It's kind of like rape. If you have sex with a woman against her will, it's rape. However, she has the choice to attempt to prosecute, and might not, if the sex turned out to be good. That is, if you embark on a cheating endeavor, and lose, well, it's better for the casino to keep your money and not charge you. My guess is that dice influence "is" cheating, but the casinos make money from it so they turn a blind eye. I guess the same would be true for insider trading too. If you get stock advice from the inside, act on it, and lose, I doubt the SEC would come after you even if they knew.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 10th, 2012 at 3:24:34 PM
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That's a very poor metaphor.
I'm pretty sure the reason some rapes aren't reported is "because the sex turned out to be good".
I'm pretty sure the reason some rapes aren't reported is "because the sex turned out to be good".
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
January 10th, 2012 at 4:38:48 PM
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Quote: KeyserI suggest you return and talk to more people. I also don't believe the part about the Wizard's comments.
Talk to who? They will NOT say anything, even if
they knew. They could lose their jobs. They have
no idea who's asking the question, but they do
know its none of your business. Casinos won't even
admit to having a blacklist, it makes them look bad.
And why wouldn't they be reading this forum. They're
in the business, what do you think they read, gardening
tips?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 11th, 2012 at 8:17:34 AM
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Agreed, it was a poor metaphor.
Mike is pretty famous out there. The gambling industry is going to read certain forums to get the public mood.
Mike is pretty famous out there. The gambling industry is going to read certain forums to get the public mood.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
January 11th, 2012 at 10:56:06 AM
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Quote: KeyserI suggest you return and talk to more people. I also don't believe the part about the Wizard's comments.
Who else should I talk to? You are reluctant to provide any details. All we know is that you were banned from Trump Plaza in July for winning too much money at a game other than cards.
It took six months to get that much out of you and you never mentioned it in this thread which you started in August.
Casinos are regularly on gambling sites especially when they are specifically mentioned. I had to remind the crew at Trump Plaza that it was a poster making the claim and not the Wizard himself.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
January 11th, 2012 at 11:59:34 AM
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Quote: 1BBAll we know is that you were banned from Trump Plaza in July for winning too much money at a game other than cards.
Its roulette, Keyser only plays roulette. This whole
thing is silly. I asked about people being banned at
Vegas casinos for BJ for years, all I ever got were
vague non answers. The pit is never at liberty to
talk about what goes on behind the scenes, the
fact that Keyser thinks they will is very strange.
Nobody knows nuttin, just ask em.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
January 30th, 2012 at 7:39:25 PM
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January 30th, 2012 at 7:42:54 PM
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Quote: swflblackjacI know a player who recently won $20k at Harrah's AC. He went to Resorts, and within 20 minutes of arrival, a gentleman approached him telling him they didn't welcome his action. When he told the gentleman that he couldn't do that, he responded "Yes, we can, and we do not welcome your action here."
And did he play anyway, or do you mean that the casino actually refused him access?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
January 30th, 2012 at 8:21:11 PM
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January 30th, 2012 at 8:57:45 PM
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Quote: swflblackjacHe was actually refused access to a game. He politely tried to play, but they again mentioned that they did not welcome his action.
That's very interesting. Has he spoken to an attorney regarding this casino's conduct in light of Uston v. Resorts?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
