The Death of Three Card Poker is coming... (???)

As I made my way back to the midwest casinos in Council Bluffs, IA and Kansas City, MO, I noticed something VERY strange. Three Card Poker, the once bustling table game with three or four tables open at any given time, is starting to disappear from the floor. I've noticed Mississippi Stud at nearly every casino now, and a few of them have two tables of that game.

Ameristar CB didn't appear to have ANY tables left, so I asked the dealer while I was playing Spanish 21 what happened to those tables. He said they got rid of one of them and turned the other into an iTable. (For those who are not familiar, these tables use actual cards with actual dealers, but payouts are electronic, as the system knows what everybody has.) He said when that happened, a lot of regular customers stopped playing 3-card, since they don't trust the machines. I pointed out that there was no difference, but that it just moved faster. He agreed, but said that rural type customers don't trust new ways, which growing up in Nebraska I would have to concur.

When I went down to Kansas City, I noticed that Harrah's had two tables (down from three or four) with the 6-card bonus (no Super Royal bonus). Ameristar KC had one table, billed as a "New Game" (they recently added the Progressive game to it). I didn't notice any tables at Isle of Capri (they had a lot of Double-deck games though). Argosy had one table with Progressive on it.

This makes me wonder if the game is going to die a death similar to Double Down Stud or Acey-Deucey/Red Dog. When I was in Vegas, it was being advertised all over the place for the 6-card Super bonus. While Las Vegas is the center of the gambling world, I sometimes wonder if the Midwest casinos are a better gauge for how things are going. Ameristar CB tests out new games ALL the time (i.e. Rabbit Hunter, the new game they are featuring). Ameristar KC had one called 3 Card Split that was kind of fun too.

When most casinos switched to 3-1 on the flush, I stopped playing the game. I will still play if it offer 4-1 on the flush, even if there is a diminished payout elsewhere. I wonder also how much of an effect that has had on the game. I know most casual gamblers don't know or care, but experienced people probably stopped playing it. Furthermore, with less winnings means less time on a game, so even a casual gambler will experience losses faster.

I'm curious to hear the response on this. I found it very peculiar to see so few tables in play.

" Ask not for whom the bell tolls , it tolls for thee" All table games are going to be digital with a few exceptions, for the
" OLD GEEZER " market, in the near future. SIGH

I would amend that to the "old geezer" and "rich people" market. Something tells me High-Limit rooms will likely keep the old-school chips and cards, at least for the foreseeable future, even if the main floor goes all-electronic.

Related question: Has anyone ever actually seen an auto-shuffler, or even a continuous shuffler, in use in a High-Limit room? I want to say there's a casino in Vegas that does it, but I can't remember which one.

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Same here. But the again I hate cell phones too. But the casinos are intent on reducing overhead and younger players seem
not to object to digital tables,

Quote: Tiltpoul

When most casinos switched to 3-1 on the flush, I stopped playing the game. I will still play if it offer 4-1 on the flush, even if there is a diminished payout elsewhere. I wonder also how much of an effect that has had on the game. I know most casual gamblers don't know or care, but experienced people probably stopped playing it. Furthermore, with less winnings means less time on a game, so even a casual gambler will experience losses faster.

This. What this did was make it go from an OK payout for a carnival game (2% element of risk on the basic game, 2.38% house edge on the bonus) to possibly the worst payout for a carnival card game (7.1% house edge on the bonus). After a while even the punters and the dregs can tell when their money is evaporating too fast.

For comparison, Let it Ride gets slagged pretty good by those in the know. But the basic bet has a house edge of around 3.5%, and at Borgata in AC, the same pairs-plus bet has a house edge of only 2.16%. Caribbean has an element of risk of 2.55%. Four Card Poker with simple strategy is 3.39% he, with 3.89% he on the most common Aces Up pay table.

Quote: buzzpaff

All table games are going to be digital with a few exceptions, for the " OLD GEEZER " market, in the near future. SIGH

That's what I find so funny about the iTables. They still use real cards who are actually dealt by live dealers. This is in contrast to what I saw at Indiana Live! where the dealers stood there for moral support; they did not even touch any buttons. The thread to Indiana Live! discusses this is a bit more detail.

Ameristar CB deserves some props for being innovative in table games, especially for the Midwest. But if what the dealer said is true (that 3 card gets no action anymore), as a casino manager, I would be tearing the touchscreens out myself in favor of a good ole fashioned table. Then again, if 3-card is dying, then I suppose why prolong the death. Make it swift and painless and digital.

Casino Niagara switched out one of their 3CP pokers to MS.

After 14 months of darkness, Casino MonteLago , the social hub of the Lake Las Vegas golf resort community, reopened at 9 p.m. Thursday to a burst of fireworks.

The small casino closed in March 2010, a victim of the battered economy in a challenging Henderson location some 20 miles from the Strip. Despite a local economy still in the dumps, a new management team expects to do better by operating lean, with fewer gambling machines and employees.
Customers stood two deep, waiting for one of the 275 slot machines or seven electronic table games to open up.

The casino's winery decor looks much the same as before, but with a twist: There are no live dealers dealing cards or spinning roulette wheels, only machines programmed to do so - among several moves to lower labor costs.

Like it or not, the new business plan for smaller casinos.

Quote: buzzpaff

" Ask not for whom the bell tolls , it tolls for thee" All table games are going to be digital with a few exceptions, for the
" OLD GEEZER " market, in the near future. SIGH

There's a reason I play tables rather than slots (well, besides the better odds), it's a whole lot more fun interacting with other players rather than sitting in front of an inanimate machine. Does that make me an old geezer? I sure hope not, if Las Vegas turns into all machines, I might as well save the gas money and stay home playing on the computer. (Just for the record, I've never played for money on an internet casino in my life.)

I dont play online either, not a great fan of digital tables, hate cell phones, never twitter, tweet, or twoot, but
the handwriting appears to be on the wall. SIGH

Quote: buzzpaff

I dont play online either, not a great fan of digital tables, hate cell phones, never twitter, tweet, or twoot, but
the handwriting appears to be on the wall. SIGH

The question is, "will the casinos go all-machines or in 10 years will we say, 'what were we thinking?'"

Lets look at banking as a parallel example. In the late 1990s banks were closing and consolodating branches big time. I actually told a market-research call from Citibank that I felt they didn't want smaller-city business and their goal was to have one huge branch in Manhattan. Internet banking we were told was going to be the way it would be in the future.

But in the early 2000s that flipped 180 degrees. WaMu and a few others started opening branches and using those branch interactions to sell new product. Also plenty of people need to make cash deposits daily. And the customer who came to you to save a nickel would leave when they saved another nickel somewhere else. With the personal touch and convienience, branches showed profit and built the business. By the late 2000s some towns were considering ordienences to limit the number of bank branches in a given area.

So, will casinos go the same way? The dealer interaction will still be there on the Shufflemaster(r) no-chip tables. But will players like not having chips? Will not seeing the stack grow lower play levels? A biggie--do casinos lease instead of buy the equipment and incur a monthly cost?

Time will tell, I hope they dissapear. The only good part is the BJ is still shoe-dealt. But you can bet that will not last.

I am old enough to remember when the first ATM machines came out. And thinking I am gonna get money on that street corner in front of all the possible muggers . No way. And the first 24 hour gas station that had no attendant at night, use your credit card.
No way. I even remember fake pagers, Had a button you could press and 10 seconds later it would beep. So you would look important cause only doctors and lawyers had pagers. Know anybody who carries a pager regularly now ?
Sure hope I am wrong about digital tables !!!

Quote: buzzpaff

I am old enough to remember when the first ATM machines came out. And thinking I am gonna get money on that street corner in front of all the possible muggers .

The problem there was location. Even when they put booths for the ATMs outside the banks, few people, even now, use them after the bank closes. But ATMs at shopping malls or inside stores like Walmart or Costco, or at hotels or casinos, are perfectly safe to use.

Quote:

Know anybody who carries a pager regularly now ?

In Mexico two things killed the pager. 1) cell companies began charging those making calls to a cell phone rather than the recipients and 2) text messaging to the phones.

As to electronic tables, well, I think the future will be a mixed system like Rapid Craps or Rapid roulette: physical dice, cards and roulette, but electronic pay offs and one live dealer per table. That way you keep the interaction and have multiple players per game, but you speed things up and keep pay offs accurate. this isn't entirely a good thing, of course. The RC computer doesn't pretend your bet wasn't working because you were generous with your tips, alas.

If and when table games are digital,reflect the actual game and payouts, have no dealer, your EV will be increased if you
normally tip. Or perhaps there will be a tip circle for Mister RNG.

Quote: buzzpaff

Or perhaps there will be a tip circle for Mister RNG.

You'll tip for handpays, of course.

And you'll be expected to tip 15% of your winnings, even if that makes the IRS form unnecessary, or especially if it does. I can even see the casinos witholding the tip from your winnings, the way restaurants add the tip for large parties.

Quote: Mosca

This. What this did was make it go from an OK payout for a carnival game (2% element of risk on the basic game, 2.38% house edge on the bonus) to possibly the worst payout for a carnival card game (7.1% house edge on the bonus). After a while even the punters and the dregs can tell when their money is evaporating too fast.

I am surprised at this thread. Three Card Poker still has something like 1,500 installs, and it contsantly gets re-introduced. Even Decues Wild Hold 'em Fold 'em made a comeback in Las Vegas via Galaxy Gaming.

You will NOT find many side bets that have a multiple ("wide or far-reaching") payout table with less than 7%. The problem with the original pair plus at 4:1 flush was that it was too low for an expansive paytable side bet, and only the re-intro of it made it look bad.

Any game that is NOT worthwhile (read: profitable) for the house will get pulled from the floor, no matter what players want. (Actually what players want is a negative house edge/positive player's edge, and it just won't happen. ) Punters and dregs are not missed. In looking for a no-house edge game, the only thing there is solitare.

As for all electronic casinos, if players don't patronize them, and only patronize dealer-staffed tables, then they won't go anywhere, even on a $5 floor. Somebody will offer them at a profit for all, and they'll stay.

As for shoe-dealt games, - we actually brought them back at our casino after an absence, along with a few "no side bet" blackjack tables - just one spot.

Quote: Nareed

You'll tip for handpays, of course.

Tipping for a handpay on a machine is silly. A tip for a dealer working hard and being friendly is normal and expected. Tipping someone who just gives you some cash, which in fact slows down your gaming experience, well, why?

Quote: Paigowdan

Any game that is NOT worthwhile (read: profitable) for the house will get pulled from the floor, no matter what players want. (Actually what players want is a negative house edge/positive player's edge, and it just won't happen. )

I agree a positive player's edge won't happen in most games or bets, full pay DW VP nothwithstanding. But if happiness if wanting what you can have, then what I want is a reasonable hosue edge, say around 3% for non-traditional games, including side bets.

I'll repeat my position that gambling is entertainment, and the house edge is the price. I'd pay 3% gladly for a fun game, and would pay more for either the game or the thrill of a side bet paying really big. But 7% is way too high. That's why I gravitate mostly to VP and craps. from that perspective it's too bad I don't like BJ...

Quote: AZDuffman

Tipping for a handpay on a machine is silly. A tip for a dealer working hard and being friendly is normal and expected. Tipping someone who just gives you some cash, which in fact slows down your gaming experience, well, why?

Amen.

If casino's go all digital, I guess I won't go to casinos. I think I can survive that.

Quote: Nareed

I'll repeat my position that gambling is entertainment, and the house edge is the price. I'd pay 3% gladly for a fun game, and would pay more for either the game or the thrill of a side bet paying really big. But 7% is way too high. That's why I gravitate mostly to VP and craps. from that perspective it's too bad I don't like BJ...

Amen, I agree. To each his own, and all the games will sort themselves out in terms of player satisfaction.

Personally, I play craps with pass Line, Place and come bets, low HE AND great fun and excitement, IMHO. BJ I now find boring. I chill with Pai Gow Poker, (sometimes getting my ass kicked by my own EZ Pai Gow....)

Quote: Nareed

You'll tip for handpays, of course.

And you'll be expected to tip 15% of your winnings, even if that makes the IRS form unnecessary, or especially if it does. I can even see the casinos witholding the tip from your winnings, the way restaurants add the tip for large parties.

You right I definitely need to add a smiley face so you will know when I am kidding !

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Gee Thanks that explains a lot.

Quote: buzzpaff

You right

I am always right. Except on those occasions when I'm not.

Quote:

I definitely need to add a smiley face so you will know when I am kidding !

I thought you didn't know what they were. What with having missed mine on another thread and all :P

But I wasn't joking. Not entirely. Once the casino goes all electronic, you'll be tipping hand pays. You'll also be tipping the runners all over the casino who recharge your card. That's how it works in Mexican casinos, only the "table games" are too limited.

Quote: Paigowdan

Amen, I agree. To each his own, and all the games will sort themselves out in terms of player satisfaction.

Except for the throngs of people who wouldn't know a good bet if it payed them off. Those are the people who keep playing bad side bets. they keep hoping they'll hit the big one, and I'm sure they play lotto when they're not at a casino.

Quote:

Personally, I play craps with pass Line, Place and come bets, low HE AND great fun and excitement, IMHO. BJ I now find boring.

I've never been able to develop an interest in BJ or any of the 21 variants. Maybe I'll try playing online for free with a BS card in hand, though I doubt that will make any difference.

Quote:

I chill with Pai Gow Poker, (sometimes getting my ass kicked by my own EZ Pai Gow....)

Would you call that poetic justice, or hedging your bets? ;)

Quote: Paigowdan

I am surprised at this thread. Three Card Poker still has something like 1,500 installs, and it contsantly gets re-introduced. Even Decues Wild Hold 'em Fold 'em made a comeback in Las Vegas via Galaxy Gaming.

I'm not doubting that Three Card Poker is going to disappear completely off the floors. As I mentioned, Las Vegas has done a great job (specifically Caesars) in advertising their 3-card game (and on a horrible bonus bet). My MAIN point of the thread, as it often gets way off the subject, was that on my trip of Council Bluffs, IA, and Kansas City, MO, Three Card is taking up less and less tables. Horseshoe Southern Indiana still has PLENTY of tables to go around, as do other casinos in Eastern Indiana, but in Omaha and Kansas City, Three Card is less important now than it was before.

It just makes me wonder if other markets will follow similar trends.

By the way, I played some EZ Paigow this weekend. I hit two Jack-high pai gows that basically saved my night. One of them, the dealer had the 9-high.

I think the emptiness of the 3CP table at Ameristar CB really is due to the electronic table. I remember when it was hard to get a spot at a 3CP table in CB, but now, the last few times I have been to Ameristar CB, that electronic 3CP table is almost always just sitting there empty. I even played it once, didn't really appreciate the chipless feel.

The only electronic table I ever liked was the $1 Blackjack game at the old Bills in South Lake Tahoe (closed a few years ago, it was probably the only 100% non smoking casino). Once a long time ago I heard they had low minimums and great table games. But with the increase in Native American casinos in CA they took tall the table games out and only had machines. When I went there last the only two people on staff I could see were the bartender and cocktail waitress, and most of the time they just sat talking to each other at the bar since there was only about 5 people inside the entire place when I was there. They had some great video poker (I do not remember exactly what it was). Anyway my general point is I could kill some time with an electronic table waiting for my table at a restaurant or before a show, but I could never sit there for an extended period of time.

Quote: cyclist

I think the emptiness of the 3CP table at Ameristar CB really is due to the electronic table. I remember when it was hard to get a spot at a 3CP table in CB, but now, the last few times I have been to Ameristar CB, that electronic 3CP table is almost always just sitting there empty. I even played it once, didn't really appreciate the chipless feel.

To that point, I was there on Saturday night, early in the evening. The table was full, and it was interesting to watch the players playing the game. The dealer hits the screen and gives the payouts. Outside that short time frame, the table was either CLOSED or empty. By comparison, Spanish 21 stays open nearly 24-7,

By the way, for those who have never been to Ameristar CB, cyclist is right about the 3-card table always being full. A dealer told me that when they got it in, they had a 4-1 payout for the flush. Within a week, the casino SCRATCHED out 4-1 and WROTE 3-1. He said it was so tacky, and that it stayed that way for quite some time. Regardless, those tables were always full. I know new games come and go, but 3-card seems like a staple, as there are MAYBE one or two casinos that I've ever been to that DIDN'T have 3-card. (Casino White Cloud in Rulo, NE is the only one that comes to mind).

Agreed... The dealer's make the game fun.

Just got back from a casino... Still live dealers, still 3 card poker!

I do now think this game is near death. In my visit in vegas, every casino had at least one table, most of them were active-not full tables, but at least 3-4 players.
In europe and especially UK, I heard this game is one of the most popular.
Remember this game has slightly high house edge, not so small minimum(5$ minimum is actuall 10$) and most of the players play the side bets...

I actually like this game-I think the variance level is "perfect"-not too high, but high enough to be fun and a chance of big win. I play only the ante bet(pair plus is too high HE in most of the paytable) and really like it.
I think it is one of the better carnival games and much better than carribean stud(seems to be dead in vegas)-both lower HE and lower bet per hand(10$ ve 15$) and less cases of winning hand but dealer does not qualify.
4 card poker and the rest poker variations(excluding pai gow) usually require lot of betting units per hand, making a 5$ game to be actually 15-30$ game. This problem is almost not exist in 3 card poker.