Ultimate Texas Hold-em Table Game Question
June 26th, 2011 at 11:51:42 AM
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My 87 year old dad playing the Ultimate Texas Hold-em Table Game was in on a hand today in which the dealer turned up 4 of a kind. His 5th card was small and was beaten by two other players. The dealer asked the pit boss about how to pay it to the two that had the better 5th card, and the pit boss said the two don't get paid as a win but that it was a push. They did get paid for the 4 of a kind portion. Since I am a rookie I thought some of you guys would know if this was correct.
June 26th, 2011 at 7:14:09 PM
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That is incorrect.
June 26th, 2011 at 7:52:51 PM
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Contrary to Fins post, clarification is needed before a judgement can be made.
All players and the dealer get TWO cards. There are five common cards. All players make the best 5 card hand from their 2 and the common 5.
It sounds like the five common cards contained a 4 of a kind. So you have to be more specific about the fifth card.
If the fifth common card is higher or equal to both the dealer's and player's highest hole card, then it'a a push, since your best five cards is the same as the dealer's best five. Ditto if your best card matches the 5th common card, or is higher than the fifth common card, but is the same as the dealer's highest hole card.
To illustrate, assume the following:
Common: 6 6 6 6 9
Dealer: 5 5
Player 1: 8 8
Player 2: 9 9
Player 3: 7 2
Player 4: A 4
Player 5: K K
Player 1 was beating the dealer before the fourth 6 came out. Once that happened, the pairs were worthless, and became a single kicker card. Once the 9 came out, beating the kickers, the dealer and player 1 tie.
For the same reason, Player 2 also tied. That he has a pocket pair is meaningless - at least for the main game. Both he and the dealer have quad 6s with a 9. But his pocket 9s still play for the side bet.
The dealer, player 1, 2 were victims of what is commonly called "Counterfeiting" - where a pair becomes worthless.
Player 3 was way behind until the fourth 6 came out. Then the 7 was beating the dealer's 5. Once the 9 came out, player 3 also tied.
Player 4 was also behind, but once the fourth 6 came out, had the best hand, and had to hope that the river wasn't an ace to tie his ace.
Player 5's pair of Kings similarly is a worthless pair, but one King remains in play to beat the dealer's 9 kicker.
In my example, Players 1, 2, and 3 all had a card higher than the dealer, but were all beaten (or tied) the board's fifth card, so those players push.
"HIS" 5th card?Quote: nedracine. . . His 5th card was small and was beaten by two other players.
All players and the dealer get TWO cards. There are five common cards. All players make the best 5 card hand from their 2 and the common 5.
It sounds like the five common cards contained a 4 of a kind. So you have to be more specific about the fifth card.
If the fifth common card is higher or equal to both the dealer's and player's highest hole card, then it'a a push, since your best five cards is the same as the dealer's best five. Ditto if your best card matches the 5th common card, or is higher than the fifth common card, but is the same as the dealer's highest hole card.
To illustrate, assume the following:
Common: 6 6 6 6 9
Dealer: 5 5
Player 1: 8 8
Player 2: 9 9
Player 3: 7 2
Player 4: A 4
Player 5: K K
Player 1 was beating the dealer before the fourth 6 came out. Once that happened, the pairs were worthless, and became a single kicker card. Once the 9 came out, beating the kickers, the dealer and player 1 tie.
For the same reason, Player 2 also tied. That he has a pocket pair is meaningless - at least for the main game. Both he and the dealer have quad 6s with a 9. But his pocket 9s still play for the side bet.
The dealer, player 1, 2 were victims of what is commonly called "Counterfeiting" - where a pair becomes worthless.
Player 3 was way behind until the fourth 6 came out. Then the 7 was beating the dealer's 5. Once the 9 came out, player 3 also tied.
Player 4 was also behind, but once the fourth 6 came out, had the best hand, and had to hope that the river wasn't an ace to tie his ace.
Player 5's pair of Kings similarly is a worthless pair, but one King remains in play to beat the dealer's 9 kicker.
In my example, Players 1, 2, and 3 all had a card higher than the dealer, but were all beaten (or tied) the board's fifth card, so those players push.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 27th, 2011 at 9:00:05 AM
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Incorrect. Players should have gotten paid if their kicker was higher than the dealer's. That is very poor dealing/pitbossing. Care to name the casino?
I seem to be seeing/hearing about a ton of dealer mistakes lately. It's like I have to watch them like a hawk. What is going on?
I seem to be seeing/hearing about a ton of dealer mistakes lately. It's like I have to watch them like a hawk. What is going on?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
June 27th, 2011 at 9:06:08 AM
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ONLY if it was also higher than the fifth community card.Quote: teddysIncorrect. Players should have gotten paid if their kicker was higher than the dealer's. That is very poor dealing/pitbossing. Care to name the casino?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 27th, 2011 at 10:54:10 AM
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If the fifth community card is higher than either of the dealers cards, then you are playing against the board. if your kicker is less than the one on the board it is a push, if it is higher then its a win.
July 10th, 2011 at 10:37:33 AM
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Thanks for all the responses. To clear things up. The 4 of a kind were part of the community cards.
My dad went back to that casino Friday and they reviewed the video. Apparently, the video is not the best. Anyway, they told him that the dealer had a King as his 5th card as well and that it was the reason it was treated as a push. My dad thanked them for looking it up but told me that was not correct. He said his buddy to the right and him were the only ones to have kings. So getting second hand information, one of two things happened. The casino was losing and took advantage of a couple of old guys that didn't know the score OR my dad is in error and the dealer did have a king. I think the video should have cleared this up.
Thanks! This is a great forum.
My dad went back to that casino Friday and they reviewed the video. Apparently, the video is not the best. Anyway, they told him that the dealer had a King as his 5th card as well and that it was the reason it was treated as a push. My dad thanked them for looking it up but told me that was not correct. He said his buddy to the right and him were the only ones to have kings. So getting second hand information, one of two things happened. The casino was losing and took advantage of a couple of old guys that didn't know the score OR my dad is in error and the dealer did have a king. I think the video should have cleared this up.
Thanks! This is a great forum.
July 12th, 2011 at 12:41:25 PM
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Quote: nedracineMy 87 year old dad playing the Ultimate Texas Hold-em Table Game was in on a hand today in which the dealer turned up 4 of a kind. His 5th card was small and was beaten by two other players. The dealer asked the pit boss about how to pay it to the two that had the better 5th card, and the pit boss said the two don't get paid as a win but that it was a push. They did get paid for the 4 of a kind portion. Since I am a rookie I thought some of you guys would know if this was correct. Thanks for all the responses. To clear things up. The 4 of a kind were part of the community cards.
Quote: nedracineMy dad went back to that casino Friday and they reviewed the video. Apparently, the video is not the best. Anyway, they told him that the dealer had a King as his 5th card as well and that it was the reason it was treated as a push. My dad thanked them for looking it up but told me that was not correct. He said his buddy to the right and him were the only ones to have kings. So getting second hand information, one of two things happened. The casino was losing and took advantage of a couple of old guys that didn't know the score OR my dad is in error and the dealer did have a king. I think the video should have cleared this up.
Thanks! This is a great forum.
Did your father recall the dealer's hole cards? What was the fifth card on the board? Did the video show the dealer's hole card with a King, or did they essentially "backroom" your dad? If it didn't, then, if I am following correctly, the pit boss erred calling it a push since the action is player vs. dealer, not player vs. player.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
July 12th, 2011 at 1:44:32 PM
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No, teddys....Quote: teddysIncorrect. Players should have gotten paid if their kicker was higher than the dealer's. That is very poor dealing/pitbossing. Care to name the casino?
DJ is correct.
It doesn't matter if "your kicker" beats "the dealer's kicker" in many cases.
It matters if the the player's kicker and the dealer's kicker cards are in play.
When the community board has both the highest poker element and the highest kicker, they both tie - as neither position can beat the board - which plays.
Only five cards are considered, that's why they tie.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 12th, 2011 at 2:15:34 PM
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Players both had king kickers. Dealer is said to have a "small" card. So the only way the players could have pushed is if the fifth community card was a King or an Ace. Two of the Kings were out, so that leaves six cards that would have pushed the hand for them. Is is likely they should have won, and is worth reviewing the tape over.
We'll not know since there is not enough information in this scenario. Lesson is to pay attention and stop play as soon as you notice the mistake. Especially when a big bonus hand comes out on the board, the dealer can be swept up in the excitement and forget to pay (or take) the base bet. I've seen tons of dealer errors in this game. (I play it a lot).
We'll not know since there is not enough information in this scenario. Lesson is to pay attention and stop play as soon as you notice the mistake. Especially when a big bonus hand comes out on the board, the dealer can be swept up in the excitement and forget to pay (or take) the base bet. I've seen tons of dealer errors in this game. (I play it a lot).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
July 12th, 2011 at 2:25:15 PM
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If the kicker is better - and it plays, then it's a better 5-card hand that wins.
I've seen so many times players pointing to what was actually the non-playing 6th or 7th card, saying "I got cha..."
I've seen so many times players pointing to what was actually the non-playing 6th or 7th card, saying "I got cha..."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
July 12th, 2011 at 2:29:18 PM
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Trying to rebuild this:
This is pretty literal: dealer {?,?}, dad {?,?} other {?,?} community {X,X,X,X,?}
I'm curious as to where this was - you know, on TV they talk up the casino's security measures as being able to determine how many hairs were on a player's left arm when he puts it on the table.
There's two possible readings of this:
dealer {?,?}, dad {?,?} other {?,?} community {X,X,X,X,K} - All unknown cards are less than or equal to K
dealer {K,?}, dad {K,?} other {K,?} community {X,X,X,X,?} - Unknown community card is less than K.
Both of these translate to this same description of "4 of a kind with a King"
If your dad remembers it differently than there's two different stories. I'm generally inclined to think video, shared and watched between two people is fairly conclusive evidence (in this case supportive of a tie - whether a community board that nobody could beat or quads in the community and equal kickers among the players/dealer) . But, if the video wasn't good, then.. who knows? Discounting that leaves with a he-said/she-said argument.
I agree. The fact that it didn't is a reminder that we're all responsible for our own hands at all times.
Quote: nedracineThanks for all the responses. To clear things up. The 4 of a kind were part of the community cards.
This is pretty literal: dealer {?,?}, dad {?,?} other {?,?} community {X,X,X,X,?}
Quote: nedracineMy dad went back to that casino Friday and they reviewed the video. Apparently, the video is not the best.
I'm curious as to where this was - you know, on TV they talk up the casino's security measures as being able to determine how many hairs were on a player's left arm when he puts it on the table.
Quote: nedracineAnyway, they told him that the dealer had a King as his 5th card as well and that it was the reason it was treated as a push.
There's two possible readings of this:
dealer {?,?}, dad {?,?} other {?,?} community {X,X,X,X,K} - All unknown cards are less than or equal to K
dealer {K,?}, dad {K,?} other {K,?} community {X,X,X,X,?} - Unknown community card is less than K.
Both of these translate to this same description of "4 of a kind with a King"
Quote: nedracineMy dad thanked them for looking it up but told me that was not correct. He said his buddy to the right and him were the only ones to have kings. So getting second hand information, one of two things happened. The casino was losing and took advantage of a couple of old guys that didn't know the score OR my dad is in error and the dealer did have a king.
If your dad remembers it differently than there's two different stories. I'm generally inclined to think video, shared and watched between two people is fairly conclusive evidence (in this case supportive of a tie - whether a community board that nobody could beat or quads in the community and equal kickers among the players/dealer) . But, if the video wasn't good, then.. who knows? Discounting that leaves with a he-said/she-said argument.
Quote: nedracineI think the video should have cleared this up.
I agree. The fact that it didn't is a reminder that we're all responsible for our own hands at all times.
July 12th, 2011 at 6:36:09 PM
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The information I got was the 5 community cards included the 4 of a kind and a small card. The dealer's two whole cards were small as well. My dad had a king along with his buddy as one of their whole cards. When the pit boss was asked by the dealer how to pay, the pit boss said to pay the trips portion and treat the rest as a push. Knowing that you are supposed to play your best 5 cards to determine a winner (vs dealer) this sounded funny and I was wondering if there was some obscure rule I didn't know about (with a 4 of a kind being turned up with the community cards as I have never seen that). I agree with the previous poster, you are responsible for your own hand, and I guess he should have called for a floor boss if he indeed had the best 5 card hand.
When he went back the following week and the casino pulled the tapes, I asked if he saw the footage that would verify what he told me. He said he did not and the guy that looked it up said the dealer had a king as a 5th card as well. So he did not actually get to see the tape. He does not see that well at 87 so could probably not seen the screen very well anyway. He would not normally make a mistake on the best 5 cards though. Who knows what really happened!
This was an Indian casino in Oklahoma.
When he went back the following week and the casino pulled the tapes, I asked if he saw the footage that would verify what he told me. He said he did not and the guy that looked it up said the dealer had a king as a 5th card as well. So he did not actually get to see the tape. He does not see that well at 87 so could probably not seen the screen very well anyway. He would not normally make a mistake on the best 5 cards though. Who knows what really happened!
This was an Indian casino in Oklahoma.
July 13th, 2011 at 8:26:55 AM
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If the kicker ties the board, then everybody should receive a push. If the dealer's kicker beats the board, then that hand is the one that must be beat to win on the blind bet.
Interestingly, while in Vegas this weekend, I was walking thru Harrah's and stopped and saw a board on an UTH table that was 4 10s and an A. In this case, everybody has the same hand, there is nothing that can beat it. The dealer turned over her cards... she had A-A! Talk about a lucky break for the table! In fact, some people started to panic when she turned over the first Ace, but a player quickly pointed out that it doesn't matter at that point. I basically had the same thing happen to me once at another casino. I had A-A, board had 4 Kings, with a low kicker on the board. The dealer turns over one A, and it's a push for me. Everybody else lost their back bets.
Interestingly, while in Vegas this weekend, I was walking thru Harrah's and stopped and saw a board on an UTH table that was 4 10s and an A. In this case, everybody has the same hand, there is nothing that can beat it. The dealer turned over her cards... she had A-A! Talk about a lucky break for the table! In fact, some people started to panic when she turned over the first Ace, but a player quickly pointed out that it doesn't matter at that point. I basically had the same thing happen to me once at another casino. I had A-A, board had 4 Kings, with a low kicker on the board. The dealer turns over one A, and it's a push for me. Everybody else lost their back bets.
"One out of every four people are [morons]"- Kyle, South Park
July 13th, 2011 at 10:17:55 AM
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No.Quote: TiltpoulIf the kicker ties the board, then everybody should receive a push. If the dealer's kicker beats the board, then that hand is the one that must be beat to win on the blind bet.
If the person's kicker, and dealer's kicker tie the board's kicker, or is lower than the board's kicker, THEN everyone pushes.
If one of their kickers beats the board's kicker, then that hand wins.
If both the person's and dealer's kicker beats the board's kicker, then which ever one is higher wins. If they are the same, then it's a push.
It's very simple. All players make their best 5 card hand out of the 2 they hold and the five on the board. In this situation, it's quads plus one more card.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
July 13th, 2011 at 10:33:17 AM
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Hope everyone doubled up on the trips!
Funny you should mention Harrah's in Vegas. That is where I learned to play the game during this year's March Madness. The bad thing for me was that it was a $10 table. Seemed like a small fortune was laid on every hand. Dealer's were nice. There were a couple of dealers that were blackjack dealers and were a little confused on the payouts (and admitted so) and had trouble figuring out who won. Luckily we had some wily UTH players that keep things correct. Loads of fun action with this game.
Funny you should mention Harrah's in Vegas. That is where I learned to play the game during this year's March Madness. The bad thing for me was that it was a $10 table. Seemed like a small fortune was laid on every hand. Dealer's were nice. There were a couple of dealers that were blackjack dealers and were a little confused on the payouts (and admitted so) and had trouble figuring out who won. Luckily we had some wily UTH players that keep things correct. Loads of fun action with this game.
