Table Game Questions

Just a couple of questions...

(1) In craps, does anyone else leave odds and\or place bets on during a come out roll? Is this silly, smart or no big deal either way?

(2) During a Friday night BJ session at the California, the house stood on A,A,5 saying it was a hard 17. The pit said two aces made it a hard hand. The next night at the Imperial Palace, the house hit the exact same hand claiming it was a soft 17. Is it simply up to each casino how to handle this?

(1) I sometimes leave the odds working on the come out roll if I remember to tell them. It all depends how I'm feeling at the time. The Wizard says it reduces the house edge by some fraction of a percent -- look on his craps page. So I wouldn't say it's a silly thing to do at all. Maybe even smart. (I guess the justification is that you're "hoping" for the seven on the come out roll, so they're automatically off. But if most of your money is on the odds anyway, the line bet really doesn't matter all that much to you.)

I guess its similar for place bets. The odds are always going to be 6-5 (or whatever) whether it's the come out or not, so leaving them off will not make a difference either way.

(2) That is definitely a soft 17. A-A-5 is seven, or seventeen. They should have hit. If you already had a pat hand, they did you a favor, so I would not have said anything in that case.

#1 ... the thing I fear is getting miffed that the dealer would remember I asked for that when I seven out, and forget when I win. And you'd have to try to train each dealer as they change. In cases like this I prefer they stick to what is usual practice.

1. If your goal is to minimize the ratio of expected loss to the total amount bet, then you should keep odds bets working on a come out roll. However, it doesn't help you win more, it just lets you bet more. Yet, I don't do this myself. In my case, it isn't worth the bother.

2. AA5 is definitely a soft 17. If I had less than 17 I would have definitely protested if the dealer stood, all the way through the Gaming Control Board if necessary.

Quote: teddys

I guess the justification is that you're "hoping" for the seven on the come out roll, so they're automatically off.

Exactly. It also explains why the puck says 'on' and 'off'.


But what it DOESN'T explain is, why the hard bets are ON on a come out roll in Vegas.

They're off in AC and Connecticut. Is that just Vegas or are there other areas where the hard ways are on for a come out?

I assume it's just Vegas, since most Vegas dealers remind players that they're on when it's a come out roll.

Wanted to share a few interesting notes on dealer mechanics when leaving odds bets working on the come out. The frequent dice players probably already know, but for the rest of us...

After asking for odds to be working on a few come outs, the dealer asked me if this would be every time. I said yes. He (and all subsequent dealers) kept an 'on' button under the puck when they moved it to the point. This way when a point was made and they went to flip\replace the puck, they'd see the button and remember to put it on my odds bet. This was at the Golden Gate.

A couple of nights later, my friends all started to leave their odds working too. There were four of us, and we were the only players at one end. On come out rolls, the dealer would return the puck to the correct position, but leave it 'on' rather than put a button on all four bets. This was at the El Cortez.

Quote: BA35

After asking for odds to be working on a few come outs, the dealer asked me if this would be every time. I said yes. He (and all subsequent dealers) kept an 'on' button under the puck when they moved it to the point. This way when a point was made and they went to flip\replace the puck, they'd see the button and remember to put it on my odds bet. This was at the Golden Gate.

Same here. If I have active Come bets with odds in a come out roll, I tell the dealer "odds always work, places always off". They mark the closest odds with the On marker and one of the places with an Off marker. The box person will remind the dealer sometimes if they miss a payout too.

Quote: odiousgambit

#1 ... the thing I fear is getting miffed that the dealer would remember I asked for that when I seven out, and forget when I win. And you'd have to try to train each dealer as they change. In cases like this I prefer they stick to what is usual practice.

As other posters have indicated, the dealer will place an "on" lamer on top of the bet (at least one of them) when you're working on the come out roll. Everything has to be clear to the eye in the sky. One time at Excalibur, a dealer left the puck turned to on/white (I was probably the only player with bets in the boxes.)

I transitioned out of making pass line bets and mostly play only place & buy bets equal to a pass line bet with full (3-4-5x) odds. Making a point with full odds or hitting a box number with an equivalent place bet pays 7x as much as a pass line winner on a come out roll. Why should I be happy about 1/7th of the potential winnings when the pass line pays only 1:1? I like to leave my bets & odds working and collect the full 7x payout. Sure it sucks to lose the bets to a come-out 7 when they could have been off, but the bets typically win frequently enough on the come out to cover a loss. When a 7 comes, I drop a stack of chips on the table equal to the total amount of my place & buy bets and tell the dealer to leave them up and working. Instead of taking down the chips from the lost bets and having to spread the chips again for the new bet, he simply taps the bets already in place with the stack I just dropped, then puts it in his bank.

Quote: Ncell

Same here. If I have active Come bets with odds in a come out roll, I tell the dealer "odds always work, places always off". They mark the closest odds with the On marker and one of the places with an Off marker. The box person will remind the dealer sometimes if they miss a payout too.

Why do you want your odds working but not your place bets?

Quote: BlueEagle

Why do you want your odds working but not your place bets?

I simply leave them the way they usually are for the come out roll. No deeper reason.

Keeping the odds working has gotten easier for me - the communication thing - however, my own vigilance seems to be necessary mostly due to the dealers changing all the time. If the 'on' marker isn't there I take my lumps.

some of the most exciting craps lately has been with handing over the odds money 'prematurely' when the next roll is a come-out, telling the dealer to turn them on and have them always working. When that number is rolled immediately, it's a 'bam' , wow, biggest thrill!!

and yes I am familiar with the other thing that can happen LOL