Craps Co-Players Confound Cold Connecticutt Caster

Continuing with observations from a recent casino trip, one thing did surprise me for sure. I'm getting pretty convinced that 99 out of 100 players learn how to play Craps without learning a thing about what bets to make and what bets to avoid.

In my own case, practically the first thing that got hammered home when learning was that the table was full of sucker bets. I can truly say I have never made any other bet besides Pass or Come, or free Odds, except lately just a few dollars on "two-way Yo", which has been more of a gesture than a bet. To add excitement I often have multiple Come bets going; this entails my strategy, then: Pass or Come bets with odds only. But observing carefully the others with a mind to report back here, I can say I did not see a single other player with the same or similar strategy. Perhaps at the other end of the table someone did and I couldn't see them. The closest I saw was a guy who played Pass and Don't Pass simultaneously, with free odds on his Don't Pass. If you dig carefully into the Wizard's stuff, you see he shoots down simultaneous "right and wrong" betting strategies too. But compared to everybody else this guy somewhat knew what he was doing; it might have intrigued me if I hadn't already looked into it.

In fact I think you can say that the Craps Table singularly fails to suggest the right strategy to a player just going on instinct and observation. Being basically anonymous in this forum, I feel free to admit (here as opposed to at home and work etc) that my strategy was a failure. In 3 sessions, where on average I might expect the EV to hit me at a negative $30, or if I did more gambling than I estimated, 50% more at most, instead I got clobbered at a Custer-like Last Stand and wound up down $500, having started the Last Stand at about even. Yet in that last stand at a $5 table, not one of my bets was on anything but Pass or Come with odds. An observer who saw somebody doing OK with bets in the middle might conclude the guy with the worst strategy was me. I might have concluded that if I was just going on those results myself.

How does it happen? The uninformed observer might have concluded it was crazy to make the free odds bets. I think it is possible I didnt crap out more than once or twice; I got an excessive amount of "got to make my number" situations and couldnt win one hardly 'for nothing'. Trying to make a '6' or '8' was like Mission Impossible and it was $30 (with the odds) down the drain each time. I don't think I won any except on making a '5' once or twice. It was murder!

Well, never mind "me", I'm a big boy and can take my lumps. I'm just saying playing the best strategy can have the appearance of being wrong vis a vis a poor strategy. Thus no wonder I saw some poor play. It especially bothered me to see a hot shooter make a bunch of middle table bets and wind up losing fast, yet the way he was rolling he should have done fine. I did note that just being a shooter who couldnt seem to roll a '7' didnt guarantee anything for him, he always had a point to make too, but naturally you expect him to be hanging in there at the least. I saw them go down in flames more than once. An odd thing to see, really.

I'd be interested to see any comments, again assuming I can flatter myself to think anyone should be interested. Thanks in advance.

The important thing to remember, that in a session such as yours, the other good strategy would have made you a ton of money. The other good strategy being of course betting 'wrong', or on the don't pass and don't come with laying odds.

Regarding the guy who was betting opposites - It certainly is not a smart way to play. Your variance would be very low but you are a sure-fire loser on the opposite bets over time. Still, he was not playing at too high a disadvantage in terms of EV, and if he took a high odds amount in ratio to his bets on the pass and don't than he can get some sufficient variance at a house edge that is far lower than most other players at the table. This strategy would also have the effect of allowing you to lay odds while not appearing to be fully on the dark side.

I once saw a guy who had so many of those one-roll bets that even when he won, it cost him money to keep the bets up.

I've had more than one boxman refer to those bets as "junk in the middle".


I have my own two theories:

On the craps table, the smaller the betting position, the less popular (and higher house edge) the bet is.

On ANY table game, if the casino is offering the bet at a price lower than the table minimum, the only rational conclusion is that it's a sucker bet.

Quote: odiousgambit

I'm getting pretty convinced that 99 out of 100 players learn how to play Craps without learning a thing about what bets to make and what bets to avoid.

A couple years ago, I had some time to kill, so I stood at a "Free Craps Lesson" at the Stratosphere. Although I've never ventured into playing "wrong" yet, I had already been playing craps long enough at that point where I've given private lessons to friends. I stood in the lesson more out of curiosity.

I got the distinct feeling that the teacher (a pit boss) was using the same speech used when training new dealers - which is NOT the kind of info a new player needs to know.

He never got into why some bets are better than others. He only glossed over the don't bets, saying that those are bets for the more experienced players. Nobody, including me, stopped and said that if that's the bet experienced players make, maybe that's the bet they should be most interested in.

He explained, in excruciating detail, that a $6 place bet on 6 or 8, is actually like a $1 bet with $5 odds, and gets paid as $1 + $6. Ditto for the 5/9: $1 + $4 odds is paid as $1 + $6. Ditto for the 4/10: $1 + $4 pays $1 + $8. Do players really need to know that stuff? Even if that's how they rationalize it to new dealers, who cares? Plus, he never got into buying the 4/10.

He also only briefly glossed over the 'junk' and Hop bets, saying that they are unpopular, so much so that they have the payoffs printed right there on the felt.


Even the most basic thing, like knowing how to tell which bets are yours by position, wasn't covered until someone asked during the Q&A wrap-up.



Bottom line: I think good craps training doesn't yet exist - which is why my dream job is to become a casino lesson instructor.

I chastise the dealers at my local craps table for telling new players to bet the "middle" (which a few players do). The minimum HA on the middle is the hard 6 and 8 at 9.1%. The Worst Bet outside of the middle is placing the 4 and 10 at 6.67% or putting a bet on the pass line after the point has been established. Dumb.

Sometimes betting the pass line with odds will not work out for you and you will run into a session where you will lose all of your money, especially when backing up with come bets. But you do have the choice to go to the "dark side".

Even once in a while the middle bets will be successful but on average it won't be.

Consider playing the don'ts.

You will "win" more often than you lose. However, occasionally you will have one really horrible losing session (shooter gets on a hot roll). If you prefer a bunch of small wins followed by a big loss as opposed to a bunch of small losses followed by a big win, then I recommend switching to the "dark side."

Thanks for the responses.

Quote: pocketaces

... The important thing to remember, that in a session such as yours, the other good strategy would have made you a ton of money. The other good strategy being of course betting 'wrong', or on the don't pass and don't come with laying odds....

Quote: teddys

Consider playing the don'ts... If you prefer a bunch of small wins followed by a big loss as opposed to a bunch of small losses followed by a big win, then I recommend switching to the "dark side."

I didn't get the feeling anybody would much care if I bet "wrong", although if I did this I would bet "right" for anyone rolling near me or while rolling myself. Thus I sort of feel like sticking with it. I also claim to like the rollercoaster ride of big variance; however, after a beating like this last one I always rethink it.

Actually, I'm a little confused, since someone a month or go said if you bet "wrong" you need a bigger bankroll. That doesnt sound like less variance.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

... I stood at a "Free Craps Lesson" at the Stratosphere....Bottom line: I think good craps training doesn't yet exist - which is why my dream job is to become a casino lesson instructor.

I think more likely you just learn it from a friend or somebody and hopefully they know to tell you to avoid sucker bets.

I'm not surprised a pit boss wouldnt be worth a hoot at teaching, when they are talking they hear a big echo going on in that big empty head.

Quote: boymimbo

I chastise the dealers at my local craps table for telling new players to bet the "middle" (which a few players do)...

Now why would they do that? how is a big loser going to help them? not likely to tip.

FYI: If you're betting 'wrong', you should keep your mouth shut when you collect your chips...and take your lumps like a man when everyone else is cheering.

Quote: odiousgambit

I didn't get the feeling anybody would much care if I bet "wrong", although if I did this I would bet "right" for anyone rolling near me or while rolling myself.

I was at a table where the guy on my left was a wrong bettor. Everyone had very short rolls, and he was cleaning up.

When the dice got to me, he stopped betting. And I hit a VERY hot streak! When I was done, I thanked him for abstaining, but also asked why. He said he never bets when the dies are on the person on either side. He never throws either.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: boymimbo

I chastise the dealers at my local craps table for telling new players to bet the "middle" (which a few players do)...

Now why would they do that? how is a big loser going to help them? not likely to tip.

I tend to disagree. If the dealer suggests a strategy and it doesn't work, he probably loses nothing. But if the player wins with his strategy, even if it is a poor one, the player will be more likely to tip.

IMO this works better with bets that have a big payoff (like the junk in the middle) than with a good basic strategy like betting the lines and taking odds. I think a player that wins one big bet is more likely to tip than one who wins the same amount (or slightly more) over a long period of time. Plus it is much easier to suggest a single bet, than to explain an entire strategy mid-game.

Quote: odiousgambit

Actually, I'm a little confused, since someone a month or go said if you bet "wrong" you need a bigger bankroll. That doesnt sound like less variance.

It's hard for me to explain why there is less variance when playing from the don'ts even though you have to lay more odds and need a bigger bankroll. Maybe somebody can do it better -- for all I know, I could be wrong and the variance is exactly the same.

The best Illustration I can make a seven-out will occur more times than the shooter making his point. The odds are always in your favor once the point is made, and that is where you will make most of your big bets anyway, not on the line itself. So, the payouts is less, but it occurs more. The best analogy I can make is to a video poker machine with a "bottom-loaded" paytable like Jacks-or-Better. It's variance is less because the payback is mostly in the frequent hands. Compare that to Double Bonus, a "top-loaded" paytable that has more variance because the payback in concentrated in the more rare hands.

I think the easiest bet to explain are the one roll ones (field, 2, 3, 11, 12). It took me about 6 months to figure out what a horn was. I've been playing craps for six years and figured out what a Buffalo is last weekend.

The rest of the game is just difficult to understand and explain in 10 minutes or less. But if a player asks a dealer to explain how the game works, I don't expect him to point to the middle and tell him to make a bet there.

And it is so easy to tell a new player (and so much fun to see them). They don't know how to throw the dice hard enough, throw the bet down in the middle of a roll, play odd number odds on 5 and 9, try to place $5 on a 6 and 8, and so on and so forth.

As I so love to say, one of the reasons craps is so difficult is because the action is going too fast. This is the only game where you can throw cash in the air, call out something that doesn't even sound like words, and it's a bet.

Quote: boymimbo

It took me about 6 months to figure out what a horn was.

Ditto.
It took me about as long to figure out the 'world' bet. Or is it 'whirl'? I've heard both.

Quote: boymimbo

I've been playing craps for six years and figured out what a Buffalo is last weekend.

OK. I'll bite. I've never even heard of a 'Buffalo' bet. What is it?

Could I & a partner play craps 1 person betting pass with odds & the other person betting don't pass with odds just to get comp points?

Yes, but it's fraud and the pit bosses would probably figure out your scheme pretty quickly.

Fraud? That seems harsh... I bet the casinos don't comp enough to overcome the house edge of betting both ways. I thought they comped closer to 1/3 of expected action, which means 2/3 between you, which is a loss.

I think the casinos would let you do it openly

The only loss could be a come out 12 on the pass line

Ofcourse you could, but don't think the crew and the floor person are going to be fooled by it.

And you will see those comp points diminish markedly if you persist in it. Everytime you "win" the casino takes a little bit of your money. That PassLine/Don'tPassLine stuff just means they will push around alot of chips until they get tired of it, but you are still having those bets subject to a house edge.

I don't mean "fraud" in the legal/criminal sense; I mean it in the moral sense in that you are misrepresenting your intentions and being unjustly enriched. I don't think this applies to blackjack card counting/other kinds of comp whoring since you are not misrepresenting yourself. You're merely taking advantage of the structures that are already there. Of course this is just my own opinion.

I like the idea of hedging on the pass/don't pass, and even tryit sometimes. It is interesting to be able to distill the house edge down to such a visible statistic: you will lose exactly according to how many twelves are rolled. Just don't think the crew is going to comp you based on your total bet. They aren't that dim.*

*same thing with playing with a partner, though it might take them a few sessions to figure it out.

Quote: teddys

I don't mean "fraud" in the legal/criminal sense; I mean it in the moral sense in that you are misrepresenting your intentions and being unjustly enriched. I don't think this applies to blackjack card counting/other kinds of comp whoring since you are not misrepresenting yourself. You're merely taking advantage of the structures that are already there. Of course this is just my own opinion.

So by your definition raising your bet at blackjack when the pit boss is watching would be fraud in the moral sense since you are hoping that he will rate you at a higher bet than your average actually is?

Jim, you raise a good point. You are getting into a grey area there. I really don't know if I would consider that fraud or within the limits of comp maximization. I guess it's only my rough sense of what's "proper" in my own little world. I can't ever say it would/should apply to everyone. I may have even tried raising my bet when the pit boss is looking in the past, but for some reason I didn't feel comfortable doing it so I stopped. It's all about drawing lines for yourself, I guess.

I use a reverse Martingale when I play Blackjack - I raise my bets when I'm on a winning streak.

It seems like the pit boss always comes by to look at the average bet right after I lose a big bet and drop back to my starting point.

I'm always thinking "Where were you two minutes ago?"

Quote: teddys

...I like the idea of hedging on the pass/don't pass, and even tryit sometimes...

Not recommended, what the Wizard has to say about that is here . The house edge increases. This is a matter for me of accepting the actual facts too, in the face of failed intuition. It's halfway down the page.

Hey if it is an allowed bet I fail to see any morality breach. I don't think any pit boss would be shocked that the people playing have the intention of being enriched.

Quote: teddys

I don't mean "fraud" in the legal/criminal sense; I mean it in the moral sense in that you are misrepresenting your intentions and being unjustly enriched. I don't think this applies to blackjack card counting/other kinds of comp whoring since you are not misrepresenting yourself. You're merely taking advantage of the structures that are already there. Of course this is just my own opinion.

I like the idea of hedging on the pass/don't pass, and even tryit sometimes. It is interesting to be able to distill the house edge down to such a visible statistic: you will lose exactly according to how many twelves are rolled. Just don't think the crew is going to comp you based on your total bet. They aren't that dim.*

*same thing with playing with a partner, though it might take them a few sessions to figure it out.

It's allowed. And it's NOT fraud or even morally wrong.

Why?

Because pit bosses aren't stupid.

If they see you doing that, they'll simply ignore those bets and look at your other bets when rating your average bet for the comp system.


But I wonder: If it's a tight table, with people waiting to play, and one player is ONLY playing both sides with odds, will that player be asked to leave to allow a real player access to the table?

Quote: DJTeddyBear

But I wonder: If it's a tight table, with people waiting to play, and one player is ONLY playing both sides with odds, will that player be asked to leave to allow a real player access to the table?

I'd say the issue is entirely getting the comps correct. There's no other reason to keep the person from gambling at what is actually a higher edge for the house. See above, this is not intuitive.

I've thought about your question some more, Jim, and I do think it sometimes is fraud to up your bet when the pit boss is watching.

I think the question turns on what your intent is. If you intend to deceive the pit boss, and misrepresent your betting amount, and the pit boss justifiably relies on that to give you a higher comps percentage, I would consider that fraudulent misrepresentation.

On the other hand, a person who just happens to be raising their bet when the pit boss comes around and the pit boss just happens to enter in a higher bet for them ... that would not be fraud in my mind.

This is a real gray area. You could also argue that it is the duty of the pit boss to make sure they enter your actual average bet correctly, not just a random sampling, but I don't think that argument would hold much water.

Basically, you would have to prove the intent of the person and that would be pretty hard. There's also the question of whether this is even an issue worth considering since the amount in question is so little, but I think the casino would be in the right here if they decided to cut you off. (Not that you would have a recourse in any case, 'cause what are comps anyway but a gift from the casino? They don't have an obligation to give you any, and can cut you off at any time.)

Again, I'm not trying to be didactic here. Just presenting my argument, which doesn't mean much in the real world. People are going to either keep doing it, or not do it, and I don't think the casino is going to be taking any action one way or the other.

(Edit: Admins: Here it where it would be nice to have some sort of threaded response system ... :))

generally, I find it is pretty hard to beat somebody at their own game. I'm sure they are all over it.

1 person betting pass & other person betting don't pass there is achance of loss on come out 12 so I don't see anything wrong. An elderly couple told me about it & they always play at night at a busy table at opposite ends of table. They play at 25$ min table & 0ne will play 5$ more or less than the partner

Quote: teddys

...There's also the question of whether this is even an issue worth considering since the amount in question is so little...

It's absolutely worth considering.

The Wynn put RFID in their chips so that they can get a much more accurate accounting of table player's action.

Initial reports were less than enthusiastic, particularly since the RFID can pinpoint a chip's location, only to a radius of about 1.5". Not much bigger than the chip itself, but problematic when you're trying to figure out whose chip is whose on a craps table.

I never did any research to see if they fixed it or abandoned the idea. But regardless, if the Wynn spent however much it cost to attempt to get better tracking, you know they were hoping for a decent ROI.

Quote: boymimbo

I chastise the dealers at my local craps table for telling new players to bet the "middle" (which a few players do)...

Quote:

Now why would they do that? how is a big loser going to help them? not likely to tip.

Not disagreeing, but to play devil's advocate, most players when making two-way bets for the crew will make them on the props. They won't win as often of course, but since relatively fewer players bet for the dealers on the line, it does lead to bigger tips when they do win.

Also, leaving tipping out of the equation, the stickperson is instructed to advertise the center bets for precisely that reason--more profitable for the casino.