Gaining the edge in Texas Hold'em Bonus?
May 24th, 2011 at 7:42:35 AM
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I played this game at the casino the other night and the dealers weren't even paying attention to my mate and I discussing our hands. With the ante only being payed for a Flush or higher, how many extra cards need to be known to give the player the edge in this game? (Assuming we can play optimally)
Thanks for any efforts answering
Thanks for any efforts answering
June 4th, 2011 at 7:20:45 PM
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I don't think sharing info can give you a player advantage. I think it can put a small dent in a game with a fairly low element of risk. I think the biggest help would be in deciding whether to fold a marginal hand. If you have 2 10 off suit, and you know 2 other 10s are in the player's hands, I would say that's a hand you would have to fold.
But I think the situations would be very rare where it would make sense to bet instead of check because you know other cards.
But I think the situations would be very rare where it would make sense to bet instead of check because you know other cards.
June 4th, 2011 at 8:54:37 PM
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I'll do a quick Monte Carlo simulation where the player knows one extra card and see if there is any statistical blip. (this is going to make for a really huge results table, it may take a few hours)Quote: brownsugarusaI played this game at the casino the other night and the dealers weren't even paying attention to my mate and I discussing our hands. With the ante only being payed for a Flush or higher, how many extra cards need to be known to give the player the edge in this game? (Assuming we can play optimally)
Thanks for any efforts answering
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 4th, 2011 at 10:28:09 PM
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It's early yet but I can tell already that if you spy a card that matches one of your own, it's going to hurt you. To a lesser extent, if one of the other players brags about their Ace in the hole or that they're snagged a bonus, then it helps you. Does it make a difference in betting strategy? I dunno, I'll process a few million more hands and post a spreadsheet with the raw numbers here, then you can play with it.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 5th, 2011 at 10:15:06 PM
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Thanks s2d I look forward to the results. What are you using to run your simulations? I'd be interested in what it takes to conduct an experiment like this so I could run it myself in the future.
Fins I disagree, I think there are many spots in this game that are VERY marginal and the extra information can save/make a few extra %.
If we knew ALL the remaining cards and could play 100% perfectly against the dealer -In this unrealistic situation we have a huge advantage. So I feel like there will be a line we can draw somewhere that knowing x amount of cards will tip the edge in the players favour.
BS
Fins I disagree, I think there are many spots in this game that are VERY marginal and the extra information can save/make a few extra %.
If we knew ALL the remaining cards and could play 100% perfectly against the dealer -In this unrealistic situation we have a huge advantage. So I feel like there will be a line we can draw somewhere that knowing x amount of cards will tip the edge in the players favour.
BS
June 8th, 2011 at 11:51:37 AM
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In Atlantic City and some places in vegas, dealers don't give a damn if you openly discuss your hand. In the wild west in A/C people just blurt out their two cards when they get them. I would think it does help in knowing what other cards are out there, but I could not prove it mathematically right now. BTW in New Orleans they are very strict about keeping your hands to your self.
June 8th, 2011 at 11:57:56 AM
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Think of it this way, if you hold pocked Aces, you feel good, right? You feel pretty confident that you'll beat the dealer, right?
But if two people say they each have an ace, how do you feel now? Would that affect your betting?
But if two people say they each have an ace, how do you feel now? Would that affect your betting?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
June 8th, 2011 at 1:05:12 PM
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No. It would only make a difference in marginal raising hands, say, like 5-4o or 8-2s. If I see a couple of my outs in the other players' hands, I will fold. AA is good enough that I am going to bet it no matter what other people have (but of course will feel less confident).Quote: DJTeddyBearThink of it this way, if you hold pocked Aces, you feel good, right? You feel pretty confident that you'll beat the dealer, right?
But if two people say they each have an ace, how do you feel now? Would that affect your betting?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
June 8th, 2011 at 1:19:26 PM
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I think Beyond Counting by James Grosjean answers that question.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
June 9th, 2011 at 5:53:09 AM
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DJ as teddys said it would only be for marginal spots but more specifically for hands that have no showdown value, hands that have to make a pair to win. Even with seeing the last two aces out I'd bet AA on all streets almost every time.
Wizard thanks for the recommendation, I'd never heard of this book before. Now just talking with some friends to see how many ways we can split that price tag :p
I did find some reviews and the book sounds like a winner!
BS
Wizard thanks for the recommendation, I'd never heard of this book before. Now just talking with some friends to see how many ways we can split that price tag :p
I did find some reviews and the book sounds like a winner!
BS
June 9th, 2011 at 7:32:19 AM
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It's difficult to obtain that book Wiz mentioned, so could someone just post the results for 1 to 4 additional cards seen and save the effort? (four cards being when you get to peek the cards of players on your both sides)
I have played THB at my local casino and I have made a crude assumption that knowing 2-4 extra cards makes the game pretty much break-even (without additional seen cards the element of risk being only 0.53% with optimal play).
I had a funny incident when an Asian woman was sitting next to me at THB table and she was clearly peeking at my cards and I didn't mind showing them to her. I had a top flush on that round and she shouted "Nice hand!" before the dealer turned over my cards. The dealer gave her an angry look. I wanted to say to her: "If you are going to peek at my cards, could you be a bit more subtle about it dammit!".
I have played THB at my local casino and I have made a crude assumption that knowing 2-4 extra cards makes the game pretty much break-even (without additional seen cards the element of risk being only 0.53% with optimal play).
I had a funny incident when an Asian woman was sitting next to me at THB table and she was clearly peeking at my cards and I didn't mind showing them to her. I had a top flush on that round and she shouted "Nice hand!" before the dealer turned over my cards. The dealer gave her an angry look. I wanted to say to her: "If you are going to peek at my cards, could you be a bit more subtle about it dammit!".
June 9th, 2011 at 8:09:55 AM
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FYI, WWW no longer has THB.Quote: hook3670In Atlantic City and some places in vegas, dealers don't give a damn if you openly discuss your hand. In the wild west in A/C people just blurt out their two cards when they get them. I would think it does help in knowing what other cards are out there, but I could not prove it mathematically right now. BTW in New Orleans they are very strict about keeping your hands to your self.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 9th, 2011 at 8:24:49 AM
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Knowledge is power (and impossibly large spreadsheets). To calculate what the impact of knowing one extra card, you have to start with some base of betting options. All 169 starting combinations X all 50 possible cards to peek X all 49 for thesecond card etc etc. Pretty soon it's meaningless noise. But for giggles, I'll post just one revealed card. I'll have to wait until I get home though.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 9th, 2011 at 4:30:11 PM
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Spreadsheet with data. I hope it's self explanatory.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 10th, 2011 at 7:34:37 AM
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Thw Wild West got rid of Texas Hold'em Bonus? I was just there 3 weeks ago it seemed to be a busy table and it had a good number of regular players.
June 10th, 2011 at 12:45:13 PM
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I was there two weeks ago and they said that they moved the table to Bally's proper. It was there at bally's just like they said.Quote: hook3670Thw Wild West got rid of Texas Hold'em Bonus? I was just there 3 weeks ago it seemed to be a busy table and it had a good number of regular players.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 13th, 2011 at 10:40:33 AM
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S2 I just git back from A/C and was at the Wild West Saturday night and they still had the Texas Hold'em Bonus table game. I fact i played it and got zinged on a dealers pocket kings, and then his 3-5 making a straight over my pair of aces.
June 13th, 2011 at 11:09:57 AM
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You think that's a hand? I was playing WPT All In Hold 'Em yesterday, and got A-A. Dealer turned over 2-2. Flop came 10-K-2. You know the rest. Turn and river were Q-J. I almost had a fit.Quote: hook3670S2 I just git back from A/C and was at the Wild West Saturday night and they still had the Texas Hold'em Bonus table game. I fact i played it and got zinged on a dealers pocket kings, and then his 3-5 making a straight over my pair of aces.
Also got the two red aces towards the end of my session. Pays 50-1 on the stupid sidebet. BOY did I get reamed for that one.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
June 13th, 2011 at 11:34:09 AM
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next time I'm in AC, i'll look for for it again but I have witnesses! Maybe they moved it back because they got tired of answering the question, "Where's the THB table?"Quote: hook3670S2 I just git back from A/C and was at the Wild West Saturday night and they still had the Texas Hold'em Bonus table game. I fact i played it and got zinged on a dealers pocket kings, and then his 3-5 making a straight over my pair of aces.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 13th, 2011 at 1:37:52 PM
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For whatever reason they took the sign down so unless you walk up to it, you have no idea what game it is. It is on the same side as the cashier toward the front.
June 13th, 2011 at 5:16:45 PM
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Between the Cashier and the bar where the midget hangs out but closer to the Cashier. I checked there. They had replaced it with another blackjack table.Quote: hook3670For whatever reason they took the sign down so unless you walk up to it, you have no idea what game it is. It is on the same side as the cashier toward the front.
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
June 17th, 2011 at 8:35:32 PM
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Quote: WizardI think Beyond Counting by James Grosjean answers that question.
Grosjean's analysis of Texas Hold'em Bonus only covers basic strategy play through to the river. Uncharacteristically no AP methods for playing this game are included in the published text.
June 19th, 2011 at 4:10:11 AM
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S2D correct me if I'm wrong but I think your spreadsheet is missing a column. The game is supposed to have 4 bets; an ante, a flop (twice the ante), a turn and a river bet. Your spreadsheet only shows 3 of these streets. Also, how does the 'Ante Win' lose more than the number of hands? The ante is just one bet.
Thanks for compiling the spreadsheet, could you help me understand it a little bit more
BS
Thanks for compiling the spreadsheet, could you help me understand it a little bit more
BS
June 19th, 2011 at 4:56:03 AM
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This will probably answer both questions: I rolled up the ante bet and the flop bet into one bet of 3x because you cannot possibly win without betting both, I also included in the Ante_Win column, the extra amount that you get paid when you have a Flush or better ( Atlantic City Rules ). It's bad verbiage on my part for calling it Ante_Win, I usually compile these only for my use. I should be more attentive when I blast these things out to the Interwebs. The way I constructed it, you can indeed have a larger loss on your "Ante_Win" than the number of hands.Quote: brownsugarusaS2D correct me if I'm wrong but I think your spreadsheet is missing a column. The game is supposed to have 4 bets; an ante, a flop (twice the ante), a turn and a river bet. Your spreadsheet only shows 3 of these streets. Also, how does the 'Ante Win' lose more than the number of hands? The ante is just one bet.
Thanks for compiling the spreadsheet, could you help me understand it a little bit more
BS
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
