3 card pokers ?
On the other hand, I'm not going to go out of my way to look at the cards.
There is a continum of activities along this line and different posters to the thread would draw the line in different places. Regarding the overall attitude of gamblers that "anything goes", I think that is just part of the casino experience. As gamblers we are playing a rigged game and we know it. There is the house edge and the ability of the casinos to 86 anyone even if they are playing 100% within the rules.
Quote: jml24I think many people consider intent when weighing ethical situations. Bet capping or late posting are clearly activities where the player intends to cheat. OTOH, if I happen to catch a glimpse of a hole card I am the lucky recipient of unintended information.
There is a continum of activities along this line and different posters to the thread would draw the line in different places. Regarding the overall attitude of gamblers that "anything goes", I think that is just part of the casino experience. As gamblers we are playing a rigged game and we know it. There is the house edge and the ability of the casinos to 86 anyone even if they are playing 100% within the rules.
Great point! Casinos think that ethics apply to gamblers and not to them. As long as you keep losing they'll be your best friend. Figure out a way to legally win and it can get ugly fast. Is it legal for casinos to bar players? Yes, but is it ethical?
Quote: benbakdoffGreat point! Casinos think that ethics apply to gamblers and not to them. As long as you keep losing they'll be your best friend. Figure out a way to legally win and it can get ugly fast. Is it legal for casinos to bar players? Yes, but is it ethical?
No, that's a very common misconception. we in the gaming industry DO have standards, as hard as it is to believe.
Barring known problem players is something we have to do sometimes, to prevent disruptions of our services, whether they're prone to causing altercations or are arguably - and in our opinion - casino cheats.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, that's a very common misconception. we in the gaming industry DO have standards, as hard as it is to believe.
Barring known problem players is something we have to do sometimes, to prevent disruptions of our services, whether they're prone to causing altercations or are arguably - and in our opinion - casino cheats.
And which of these categories did Ken Uston fall into ? I will admit he was a scumbag and drug addict who abandoned his wife and 2 daughters, but he was barred for winning, was he not ??
It was card counting, which I consider a minor offense, actually within the limits of fair play. My ONLY industry concession to gamblers.
Quote: PaigowdanBuzz,
It was card counting, which I consider a minor offense, actually within the limits of fair play. My ONLY industry concession to gamblers.
Dan, thanks for your honest reply. Assuming that you consider the minor offense to be that
of your industry, and not the late Ken Uston's !
Maybe it's because poker players have respect for the game of poker, but not for the house games. There is pride in winning fair and square at a table against several competitors as opposed to just trying to overcome the house edge in BJ or 3 card. Also, I think most players see the casino as a bit of a cheat to begin with because of all their psychological tricks and their heartwarming generousity with free alcohol to gamblers.
Players do this out of a "player vs. house" approach. If a player is accidentally showing his hole cards, as a courtesy a fellow player might alert him.
No consideration is ever given to the dealer on this. Indeed, "No consideration for the dealer" is often a big part of the dealer's job!
Quote: buzzpaffYou don't have take the free drinks. And the first law of economics is " There is no free lunch" LOL
The quote, often wrongly attributed to Heinlein in "The Moon is a Harsh mistress," is "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch."
But there are free abelian groups.Quote: buzzpaffThere is no free lunch
--Ms. D.
Quote: WizardI totally disagree with Dan on this one. If the dealer shows me his/her hole card, by golly I am going to factor that information into how I play. It is part of the game to protect your cards. Maybe it is a bad comparison, but if a woman has a wardrobe malfunction I'm not going to feel guilty about taking a peek.
Time after time Gaming has ruled that hole-carders are not cheating. When Vegas casino security have illegally back roomed hole-carding players the subsequent lawsuits have awards said players mid-six figures in damages.
It is enough for a player to play his own cards properly, he should not be held morally or legally responsible for protecting the dealer's game too.
Ditto. You are just wrong on this one, Dan.
I fully know gaming's position, and no player should be held legally resposible for dealer flashing his hole cards, true.
I argue that hole card usage is a personal/moral/ethical standards call. I do not expect a gambling hall to be a Buddhist monestary. But gamblers' standards can frequently reach amazing lows.
I force myself to ignore that I should NOT have seen, and play out a hand telling the dealer what he will be showing us on his cards and why.
So it is a situation where you can elect to use that info or not. You can make a better play, and have a winning hand, which cannot be questioned on a "Card face" value basis - the hand "simply won as you played it." But:
- knowingly keeping money from a dealer error is a more serious ethical issue, because the cards or dice do NOT match the obviously correct payout. Would you let the house shortchange you if the same error type were in ther favor?
- Late bets (past posting, capping) are legal issues.
Quote: PaigowdanWould you let the house shortchange you if the same error type were in ther favor?
I do not let or not let the house do anything. I would point out a perceived error against me to the dealer, and, if I was unhappy with his response, to the pit boss. But I am not the judge or jury, the casino is. Trust me, because YOU say it is 'a more serious ethical issue' does NOT make it so. The fact that you are in the EXTREME minority here, with this forum composed of a wide variety of people, just shows me that YOUR life as a dealer has skewed YOUR view of this question.
appear to have the knowledge, discipline and bankroll to win. Therefore you are barred,
And don't go way mad. As a matter of fact you can stay and play at any other game we feel you are destined to lose at.
Also the 9,999 losers must never ever take advantage of a house mistake.
So much for Caesar's wife being above suspicion.
I thought there was a gree trying to free Abeli from a dictator until I googled and found this to be a mathematical group.Quote: DorothyGaleBut there are free abelian groups.
--Ms. D.
IF I only had a brain ??
Why, anybody can have a brain. That's a very mediocre commodity. Every pusillanimous creature that crawls on the Earth or slinks through slimy seas has a brain. Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning, where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. But they have one thing you haven't got: a diploma.
Quote: SOOPOOI do not let or not let the house do anything. I would point out a perceived error against me to the dealer, and, if I was unhappy with his response, to the pit boss. But I am not the judge or jury, the casino is.
Yes, the casino is. Play at the one that treats you the best. But based on what's said on this board, there are a lot of judges and juries out there in gambler's land, and by all means vote with your feet and buy-ins!
Quote: SOOPOOTrust me, because YOU say it is 'a more serious ethical issue' does NOT make it so.
True, I don't make it so. It just might be true regardless of me....
Quote: SOOPOOThe fact that you are in the EXTREME minority here, with this forum composed of a wide variety of people, just shows me that YOUR life as a dealer has skewed YOUR view of this question.
I plead guilty:
1. I am in the Extreme minority, and I know it. I saw the poll results, and I was scared.
2. Life as a dealer can really bias someone, true. When we see enough dirt-bags (and some really are), even though they're in the minority - you are affected.
If you knew that I am considered by management as one of the most friendly, tolerant, and patient dealers by management you would not believe until you saw all the Academy Awards lining my bookcases. Robert DeNero don't have shit on me.
As far as "people" jobs go, it can be among the roughest.
People lose money and they can get nasty.
No. Of course not.Quote: PaigowdanWould you let the house shortchange you if the same error type were in their favor?
But that's only if I notice it.
When I'm playing blackjack for example, I often suddenly feel like an idiot, because I can't add the value of three or four cards. Mind you I know all the little dealer tricks to adding cards quickly. But when I'm at the table, those tricks, along with my far better than first grade math skills, tend to escape me.
So I feel lucky if I even notice, and am able to prevent, being short-changed on the payout.
Therefore, don't blame me if I don't notice, or just pretend to not notice, a mistake in my favor.
On the other hand, lazy and inattentive dealers I will NOT correct. A dealer paid me on a pushed 20 right before he left for his break. He was not thinking, and just wanted to get out of there. Will I correct that error? No. To be honest, I see a lot of this kind of behavior and will more often not correct than correct.
Gang -Quote: PaigowdanIf you knew that I am considered by management as one of the most friendly, tolerant, and patient dealers . . .
On my last trip to Vegas, Dan and I spent a lot of time together. And we have had a lot of phone calls and a few emails since then, including a call he made to me just a couple hours ago.
While I haven't seen him deal, I can tell you that the above quote doesn't surprise me at all.
I really feel bad that he and I are on opposite sides of this argument.
For what it's worth, Dan has valid reasons for his - well I guess you'd call it "attitude" - and I can't blame him even though I disagree.
I just wish he'd take it down a notch or two.
Quote: teddysI have my own practice for correcting dealers. If the dealer is obviously a newbie, just breaking in on the game, I will correct his/her mistakes. For example, I just corrected a dealer who was dealing Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em when she paid my pushed hand. She was obviously struggling with the game, and thanked me effusively.
On the other hand, lazy and inattentive dealers I will NOT correct. A dealer paid me on a pushed 20 right before he left for his break. He was not thinking, and just wanted to get out of there. Will I correct that error? No. To be honest, I see a lot of this kind of behavior and will more often not correct than correct.
Agreed 100%. If the dealer is being friendly to me / obviously is new, I'm going to feel bad if he screws up. But, shocking as it is to you Dan, many dealers are not friendly. I understand not being friendly, I've been a cashier. But don't expect a customer to tell the cashier that the pasta sauce is $1.99 and not $1.89 if the cashier is being rude.
People lose money and they can get nasty.
And they are cowards too. Know the dealer has to just grin and bear it. Unless I am playing at the table and I usually let them know how stupid they are, but not always. If the guy is a real jerk and I am sitting at 3rd base I have been known to split tens, hit 16 against a 4, etc. And hope the jerk tells me I took the dealer's bust card. Worth losing a few $5 bets to then be able to tell him to Shut UP and play his own hand. Depending on whether we are in mixed company or not I might add a few expletives.
Quote: DJTeddyBearGang -
On my last trip to Vegas, Dan and I spent a lot of time together. And we have had a lot of phone calls and a few emails since then, including a call he made to me just a couple hours ago.
While I haven't seen him deal, I can tell you that the above quote doesn't surprise me at all.
I really feel bad that he and I are on opposite sides of this argument.
For what it's worth, Dan has valid reasons for his - well I guess you'd call it "attitude" - and I can't blame him even though I disagree.
I just wish he'd take it down a notch or two.
Dave,
Will do.
But be a full time dealer for Five years at a $5 house and you will see some things about the nature of gamblers that'll change your opinion of the industry's clients.
Like I said -
People lose money, they get nasty.
People at risk of losing money - they will try some sh]t.
It can be a real ugly bunch.
And don't feel bad about being on opposite sides - it's like being on opposite sides of a "Chinese Food Versus Italian" thingy.
Quote: FinsRuleAgreed 100%. If the dealer is being friendly to me / obviously is new, I'm going to feel bad if he screws up. But, shocking as it is to you Dan, many dealers are not friendly. I understand not being friendly, I've been a cashier. But don't expect a customer to tell the cashier that the pasta sauce is $1.99 and not $1.89 if the cashier is being rude.
Fins, I agree. I know a lot of dealers and floormen, and I hang out with VERY few people from my own industry.
Three friends, "Steve," "Shawn," and "Andy" I hang out with. All are too decent for dealing. Two of them I recommended for office jobs in this industry, and got them, and One is a now a floorman.
My next step....retirement, Lord I hope so.
It's really hard to be able to act the right way with different types of people at the same time.
Actually, what other service job do you have multiple customers at the same time? I guess waiter is the closest thing, but those are all people who are together.
When you add in the fact that you're protecting tens of thousands of dollars, and there is constant surveillance, and it's very repetitive, I think dealing might be the most difficult service job. I would never do it.
