3 card pokers ?

Q64 rule means Q64 itself is a raise or fold ?

for dealer one card known, the site mention we should raise all hand for dealers one card is 2-J

but how about my hand s largest card is smaller than the dealers known card ? it seems nonsense to raise all even i know the dealer has one card larger than all of my three card , right ? or u just assume we only know its a 2-J but we dont know what it actually is ?

moreover , and how about we got the worst card such as 2 3 5 245 etc ? even we saw the dealers one card is 5 , is it still worth to raise for our worst hand?

how about the ev+ if we confirm the exact number of the dealers known card ? then we can even fold for some worst hand and get more than 3.4x% as mentioned?

i want a complete strategy for that one known card , thanks

and also what will be our advantage for if i can only notice the dealer one card for 80% time , or 70% 60% ??

and how should we count for one kelly by our bankroll??

This is how playing Three Card is done - if you play the game:
1. You play a Q64 or better;
2. You FOLD a Q63 or less;
3. And you don't sweat these statistically verified actions - because you trust the mathematics that Micheal Shakcleford had provided on the game in full.
4. And that's it.

You play the cards - and not the money - whenever you decide play your cards with money on the line.

It's like asking - when playing Blackjack - "Do I sweat hitting a two-card 16 against a dealer's ace?"

You play the cards - and not the money - whenever you decide play your cards with money on the line.

Edit: You play your cards - and not the money - with absolute surety. Or else you just don't play cards with money on the line....

Oh...

And the strategy for cheating in a Nevada Approved Casino by cheating/Peeking at the dealer's hole card??....

1. A fenoly arrest based on the "knowing" player's action.
2. Termination - with loss of gaming license and his gaming career for the career dealer, or even felony arrest (and a prison jumpsuit) - if convicted of collusion with the player. [The dealer in question recieved a simple termination, with allowance to re-hire, because it was a $6 total mistake.]

I have seen that dealer's termination - and that player's felony arrest - at the Wild Wild West Casino, - Station's Casino property five years ago - for a player making a $3 cap on a $3 BJ game after a dealer had busted. This was back in late 2006. The Casino Manager, "Mike P." made the call. I agree with him.

Surveillance had called Mike P. the Casinomanager and Metro Police - and the casino manager - for an action.
Mike P. requested a Metro Police arrest action.
For a $3 bet capping when "silver" was used as $1 chips.
The arrest Had Happened. A college kid on break.

A 22 year old kid from California playing $3 Blackjack - who had tried to cheat a casino for three dollars for "laughs and giggles" while on spring break, got caught by the surviellance crew.

The Casino manager Mike P. insisted that the asshole kid get an arrest booking for it - and the vetertan dealer who missed a quick "bet-capping" get fired.

Both had happened. Mike P. had seen to it - God Bless him, actually, really, as a Casino Manager.

The dealer who had gotten fired ("Bill H.") actually got me my job at my current casino five years ago, and he later worked at "FH" as a crap dealer, because he only made a "dealer mistake of less than $25" - he missed a "past-posting" cap of only $3, but twice on game play action, on a Blackjack game.


The 22 year old kid who did this - for just laughs - has a permanent Casino Fraud arrest record in his history. As far as I am concerned as a casino dealer who has to deal with slick-ass players - serves him the f*ck right.

The California kid who did this $3 "bet cap fraud" twice in a Las Vgas casino, in back-to-back Blackjack deals, while on a spring break vacation
- now has a Permanent United States "Casino Fraud" Arrest History. He can't get a Corporate Job because of it now, Univeristy degree or not.

As far as I am concerned, it serves him the fuck right.

Now...You were asking something about in THIS thread... - "if I can see the dealers hole-card on Three-Card Poker - and therefore cheat the casino for some money to feel GOOD about my slick gambling actions -
- and is this OKAY??!!"

If you come into this board without any ethics lessons then...Duh..no...

surely i will believe on all mathematics and stat

but it is really impossible even for i get a 2 3 5 and see the dealer s card is a 2 , should i still raise ?? what i can get is the most lucky occasion to get a push hand only?

and why for dealer 2-J we raise all hand and ignore to see what is our largest card ? for some hand we are impossible to win?

or his strategy already assume we make adjustment by ourselves ? so the +3.4x % ev is for after such adjust or not ?

I just want to get a real perfect strategy for it , or I have made some mistake on this game < since i still never played this in casino

BeyondBJ -

1. Perfect Strategy for Three-Card Poker - and all other gambling games - are fully described at www.wizardofodds.com. Follow the strategies for best statistical play in good faith, and you are in the best position for a gambling player. Enjoy your gambling time and just have fun at a casino.

2. Asking us all here at a gambling forum - on how to cheat a casino by asking the best play to make - when seeing or cheating on a dealer's hole card - is very stupid.

3. This is not gambling, this being a dirt-bag thief, - by asking the public gambling forum here to support you on this action. This is a Non-starter, and is not how it works.

4. Perfect strategy for fair-play on Three-Card Poker is to raise on a Q-6-4 or better, and fold on a lesser hand. That is it.

5. Asking for the strategy upon seeing one of the dealer's hole cards, or on "how to cheat at Three-Card Poker" when sneaking an un-authorized peek at a casino dealer's hole card thereof...is casino cheating.

Mike or JB, make a call...

I dont know why u think its cheating

the strategy for seeing one dealer card is stated in wizardofodds and also in beyond counting

i come here to ask further information is just this forum is refered by wizardofodds , for enquiring further gambling knowledge

May be i have come to a wrong place to ask for a wrong question?

if the casino not training their dealer to put their card carefully , its the casino management problem and not the players cheating anyone

u can say casino are cheating all players money all the time

Quote: Paigowdan

BeyondBJ -

1. Perfect Strategy for Three-Card Poker - and all other gambling games - are fully described at www.wizardofodds.com. Follow the strategies for best statistical play in good faith, and you are in the best position for a gambling player. Enjoy your gambling time and just have fun at a casino.

2. Asking us all here at a gambling forum - on how to cheat a casino by asking the best play to make - when seeing or cheating on a dealer's hole card - is very stupid.

3. This is not gambling, this being a dirt-bag thief, - by asking the public gambling forum here to support you on this action. This is a Non-starter, and is not how it works.

4. Perfect strategy for fair-play on Three-Card Poker is to raise on a Q-6-4 or better, and fold on a lesser hand. That is it.

5. Asking for the strategy upon seeing one of the dealer's hole cards, or on "how to cheat at Three-Card Poker" when sneaking an un-authorized peek at a casino dealer's hole card thereof...is casino cheating.

Mike or JB, make a call...

Dan, get off your freaking high horse. This comes straight from the WOO site.

"Hi, Wizard. The casino here allows players to take over another player's hand in Three Card Poker if he wishes to fold. The player taking over the hand must put up the play bet himself. Should I take over his hand if I know that one of the dealer's cards is 2 to J (low rank card)? What is the player edge? Thanks for your reply. - James from Genting, Malaysia

Yes, you should. If you see the dealer has a 2 to jack the odds favor raising on anything. Using this strategy does result in a player advantage. I get into the details in my book Gambling 102. December 26, 2006"

If you don't like what people do, that's fine. But calling someone a "dirt-bag" thief is an uncalled for personal attack. Maybe he wasn't trying to look at the dealer's card, and the dealer just sucks. That makes him a dirt bag to use that information? I think you need to relax. He's not bet capping, and if he decides to play blind one hand because he sees a dealer Jack, no one is getting fired. Geez, did you have a rough night or something?

When I was a dealer, so long ago you had to actually peek under the upcard to verify if BJ or not, spooking was a concern. One night a real jerk and non-tipper to boot was at third base and trying to sneak a peek. When he had a big bet I deliberately did a classic double look. Like a dealer sometimes does with a 10 up and wasn't sure if that was an A or a 2 underneath. Confident I had a hard 12,
he doubled one hand and split another. After losing to my 20 he left the table mumbling what a stupid dealer I was.

BJ...
It's cheating, it really is - downright plain and simple.

If you are seeing dealer's hole cards when you are not supposed to, - and using them - it is cheating. Especially when the dealer is letting you see those cards. Sometimes for extra tip money.

Casinos, and the dealers schools, train and enforce their dealers not to show their hole cards,

So that players and dealers do not make extra money on the side.

You are right, BJ, sometimes Casino management doesn't always catch the dealers or players doing this thing.

This does not mean you should take that extra money from the dealers. When you are a player.

This is a bad thing.

Or ask us how to do it over here, at this forum.

Casinos are not cheating players all the time, - or at all.

U C, the problem is....Too many times, the dealers are working with the players to make extra money.

Sometime it B like dat....

This is a very bad thing!

Shame! Shame!

VERY BAD!

May B U have come to the wrong place, if u b axing us dat kwestion...

Dan,

I also think you missed a thread where it was concluded that you cannot get arrested for "using" information as long as you were not colluding with a dealer. For example, if the dealer holds up an Ace as one of his three cards, and I have A, 2, 4, and I fold, I cannot be arrested for felony casino cheating or whatever.

Also, I'm not sure what you meant by this "May B U have come to the wrong place, if u b axing us dat kwestion..." Care to elaborate?

Quote: FinsRule

Dan, get off your freaking high horse. This comes straight from the WOO site.

Doesn't matter where the hell it comes from. I may and do frequently disagree, bicker, and argue with Mike S, brilliant and kind as he is.

Quote: FinsRule

"Hi, Wizard. The casino here allows players to take over another player's hand in Three Card Poker if he wishes to fold. The player taking over the hand must put up the play bet himself. Should I take over his hand if I know that one of the dealer's cards is 2 to J (low rank card)? What is the player edge? Thanks for your reply. - James from Genting, Malaysia.

Yes, you should. If you see the dealer has a 2 to jack the odds favor raising on anything. Using this strategy does result in a player advantage. I get into the details in my book Gambling 102. December 26, 2006"

Mike is mathematically right - but I will argue ethically wrong. And I know who HE is. If he had recommended pulling such a play against a Bank Clerk, - I'd say the same thing!

Quote: FinsRule

If you don't like what people do, that's fine. But calling someone a "dirt-bag" thief is an uncalled for personal attack.

Anyone who is a casino thief is a freakin' dirt bag - no different than a bank wire or hold-up thief. STILL a freakin' thief. NOT personal because You just call a thief a thief: casino, bank, or whatever the financial operation that you have.
This is not a personal attack, it is a gaming industry position towards anyone who commits gaming fraud, much like bank fraud - and a thief is a thief when in knowledge of a clerical error - period, end of story.

Quote: FinsRule

Maybe he wasn't trying to look at the dealer's card, and the dealer just sucks. That makes him a dirt bag to use that information?

Yes it does. Absolutely freakin' yes. You are a gaming thief if you TRY to get away with this clerical error as a birthright owed to you, just as in any banking error. If you downright KNEW that a bank clerk made an error - and later caught you and asked you to correct it in front of the police, would you say, "Oh! I should get away with this knowledgable Monetary theft on MY part - because I KNEW it was wrong, but...it was based on a clerical error! Opps! - So f*ck you - I get to collect on it!!!

Quote: FinsRule

I think you need to relax. He's not bet capping, and if he decides to play blind one hand because he sees a dealer Jack, no one is getting fired. Geez, did you have a rough night or something?

He is indeed bet capping if it's based on illegal knowledge, innocent dealer error especially so.

This thread just proves the thieving dirt-bags that casino operators - and BANKS - have to protect themselves against - every day.

As a matter of fact - People need to understand that casinos are financial institutions, regardless of the fat that they might [clearly] be of a recreational nature.
Fraud is still fraud, theft is still theft, and a bank clerk's error is no different than a casino dealer's clerical error.

You cannot "accidentally" use any clerical error on your deliberate game bet.
It just doesn't happen.

I totally disagree with Dan on this one. If the dealer shows me his/her hole card, by golly I am going to factor that information into how I play. It is part of the game to protect your cards. Maybe it is a bad comparison, but if a woman has a wardrobe malfunction I'm not going to feel guilty about taking a peek.

Time after time Gaming has ruled that hole-carders are not cheating. When Vegas casino security have illegally back roomed hole-carding players the subsequent lawsuits have awards said players mid-six figures in damages.

It is enough for a player to play his own cards properly, he should not be held morally or legally responsible for protecting the dealer's game too.

I have to disagree with Dan as well. Not only did I find the information about 3CP hole carding from the WoO site, I have used it to my benefit with great success. Here's an example Dan... I know that in 3CP, a K-Q-10 holding is a decent hand and one worth raising. I'd raise with this hand every time I got it - unless I happened to see the dealer flash an Ace. What on earth would the point be in not using this information? What would you do? You know you're beat... are you still going to play the hand the same way? Come on. If a dealer is poorly trained or not careful enough NOT to show me 1 of his/her 3 cards and I base my subsequent decision upon that information, anyone who calls that cheating or theft or anything of the sort can say or think what they please but I'm just a punter who is in a +EV situation because of the shortcomings of the casino staff.

I can use information about a quarterback's damaged left knee or a 3-point shooter's wonky right thumb when placing a sports bet and I can use a poker player's tell (eg. tapping foot, stops chewing gum...) to make a raise but it's somehow illegal or immoral to simply use my eyes when a dealer flashes a card?

I may not have changed your mind but you'll certainly never change mine.

By the way Dan, I always appreciate your very informative and well thought out posts so please don't take this personally. I just felt it was important to make my point on this one.

And yes, to the OP, you raise with 5-3-2 (or any hand) when you see a dealer's 2-J. It's a +EV play even though you may still lose the hand.

I'm with the Wizard on this one.

Dan, if you're holding Q,10,5 and see the dealer has a king, would you still go for the play bet because it's good strategy against an unkown hand? I wouldn't.

I think hole-carding is cheating only when 1) the dealer is colluding with the player and 2) the player uses a device to see a card he otherwise couldn't see.

Indeed I agree with The Wiz and Nareed here, I am not going to foolishly ignore useful information when I am playing a game risking my own money. Do I try to hole card? No, but If I happen to see a flash of a card I will use it to my advantage. Also, knowing the correct play under any circumstances to reduce HE is what most of us are doing here in the first place. Seems like beyondbj was asking a simple question about mathematics and did not need to be berated.

In addition, how about california 3CP where the dealer deals one of his card face up. If I was ever playing that game I would want to know the correct strategy at any given time considering what the dealer is showing. Saying that I shouldn't use the information when seeing a flash of a card at casino's that don't flip the card up is like saying I should play 3CP at the Cali card clubs with the Q64 rule and forget about what the dealer is showing me. It's just not logical. And I don't find it unethical if you are not attempting to steal a peak.

my problem has been solved

I just found out I have made a big mistake on that game

coz the dealer do not got QKA , we still will win the ante if we have raise,

Guys,
I know...I know...I know....
My position if that if you KNOW that the payout is WRONG in your favor,

and I mean K-N-O-W that your P-A-Y-O-U-T is W-R-O-N-G,
well...you are COLLUDING with the dealer - if you accept the freakin' cash.

Whenever I see the hole card, I return the money back to the dealer without saying shit.
If I HAD to, I would actually declare a misdeal and force the dealer to take the payout back.
On most occasions, if floor supervision is NOT involved, I've seen the dealer just thank me for my honesty, and put it back in the rack.
but sometimes (rarely!), instead of putting the money back in the rack, they treat it as a tip and drop the chip in the box, - which infurtiates me! @#$%^&*! Now that's gall.


And honestly now...you would guys protest vociforously if it were they other way around, - if you got cheated or shortchanged?
...oh....That DIFFERENT....

When a 7-11 clerk pays me change for a $20 for a $7 purchase when I had only handed her a $10 bill - and that I KNOW what bill I had handed her....
...I return the additional $10, not just because it's house's money, - but because it is just not mine. (So I REALLY don't want it.)

Regardless of anyone - including gaming - saying that "well...it is okay to take it if the dealer/bank clerk/7-11 clerk/car wash attendant made a mistake. It keeps arguments and disruptions to a minimum and business flowing."
...Frig it.. pay him, be done with it, move onto the next hand/customer/car to be washed, etc...

...looking at the arguments here, well, they are to shut up, and to just take the cash.

Sheesh...

I am both surprised by the arguments here...and not surprised at all, no matter who made 'em, from Gaming on down.
And this is a pretty good board.

1. A casino is not a "financial institution".

2. So Dan, when you are shopping at the grocery store, and the pasta sauce rings up as $1.89, and on the shelf it said $1.99, you call the manager over and make sure you get to pay the extra dime, right? Because if you don't, you're a dirt-bag.

There's a lot more I can say on the issue, but some has been said. I've said in the past that I draw my line at me not willfully deceiving the casino. But if the casino is going to show me an Ace on 3CP and I only have King high, I'm not going to donate an extra $5 to them, and I really don't think you or anyone would either.

Quote: Paigowdan

And this is because one out of ten players actually returns such an overpayment.

Because I see it occur so very rarely, I feel like I am staring at 7-Card Straight Flush incident.

It is so rare, this position makes absolutely no sense, including to the distinguished people here...

...looking at the arguments to shut up, and just take the cash.

Sheesh...

These are two separate discussion points. I probably return overpayments 1 in 5 times. If I'm winning, and if the dealer is nice. You can fault me for the fact that I don't always return it, or I don't point out when dealers have straights/flushes in Pai Gow, and I understand and respect your stance.

But to take that the next step further, and say that I need to put $5 out there on the "play" bet after I know I'm beat in 3CP when I wasn't trying to holecard is:

1. Not the same argument
2. Crazy

Quote: FinsRule

1. A casino is not a "financial institution".

Shoot yes - it IS exactly that!
A Casino is NOT only a financial institution - it is one of a recreational nature.
That is exactly what a casino is.

A Casino is a Financial Insitution of a Recreational Nature. A Bank you PLAY in.
What do you think a casino is - a freakin' hospital or a High School??!!

Really, now...we all here just know you're playing with real money, and what is going on is transactions: win, lose, push.

Quote: FinsRule

2. So Dan, when you are shopping at the grocery store, and the pasta sauce rings up as $1.89, and on the shelf it said $1.99, you call the manager over and make sure you get to pay the extra dime, right? Because if you don't, you're a dirt-bag.

Actually, I just point it out, and pay the dime, no problem, certainly for ten cents. And the larger the error, the more it MUST be pointed out.
Like I said, if I get change for a twenty when paid with a ten, I return the ten.
I mean, wouldn't you? How much easier is it to give back a proper ten bucks - no less ten cents, if owed.

Finsrule, do YOU have a problem returning a ten dollar bill that you happen to owe someone - no less ten freakin' cents??!!

A matter of principal.

And yes, Finsy, it is precisely because I'm not a dirt-bag.
Because you really DO have to be a dirt-bag to stiff someone you owe ten dollars to, - no less ten cents on a simple jar of pasta.
Glad you asked.

Quote: FinsRule

There's a lot more I can say on the issue, but some has been said. I've said in the past that I draw my line at me not willfully deceiving the casino. But if the casino is going to show me an Ace on 3CP and I only have King high, I'm not going to donate an extra $5 to them, and I really don't think you or anyone would either.

Well...then....I must be different than a lot of people.

Because I draw the line at not taking stuff that ain't mine, and that includes money, - and how it's gotten, and how I know damn well how it's gotten.

I have to agree with everyone other than Dan on this one. In general casinos know that they are going to win a gamblers money, so the game is never really "fair" the same way buying a product at the grocery store is. I just can't seem to see where it is wrong to use any information the casino gives you to try and minimize the amount of your money that they casino takes, and I don't think I am a dirtbag for thinking this way.

Is someone that is counting cards at blackjack then a dirtbag too?

Cheating just a little is like being a little pregnant. Disagree with name calling, but if the shoe fits ?? What about spooking ala the movie " Casino " Having a partner across the pit signaling dealing hole card if he can spot it ? That's the problem with cheating, hard to draw the line. Like poker players who soft play a hand against a buddy, but are infuriated at 2 buddies raising each other to drive him out. Something about people living in glass houses seems appropriate here, Dan ?

Sorry, Dan. I gotta disagree with you on this.


A casino is NOT a "Financial Institution."

A casino is a casino -- a gambling hall.

A Financial Institution, such as a bank or credit union, is there to look after your deposit, and/or to make a loan for some purpose that they see fit.

A casino is there to separate the gambler from his money. As an aid to do that, they have a credit office that will loan money for a purpose that no Financial Institution would ever knowingly agree to.

You may think that the only thing a casino makes is money, and therefore is a "Financial Institution". Nothing can be further from the truth. The product that they are selling to the consumer is entertainment and recreation, in the form of a gamble.


As a gambling hall, it is the casino's responsibility to train the dealers to deal right, without showing the hole card, to pay properly, etc. It is the casino's option to gamble with an untrained dealer. If such a dealer is on the floor, and a player is able to get an advantage because of that decision, well, then, the casino lost the gamble.

The only part where I agree with you, is if a store clerk gives too much change. Because there is a paper trail accounting of the cash drawer, I know the clerk will be held responsible if there is a shortage, so I return it. If an item in a store rings up lower than marked, it is the store's fault for not discovering it and fixing it sooner.

If a dealer pays out too much, there's no paper trail. I keep the excess. Will the dealer get in trouble? Possibly. But that's the gamble that the dealer took when taking the job. Sorry if that hits home.

Quite frankly, that's an additional reason to keep it. If the player returns the excess, it's outside of the standard motions to return it to the rack, and might be more easily seen by the floorperson / surveilance, causing questions later on.

And that may be why the dealer in your scenario put the chips you returned into the toke box - that's a normal chip exchange. For a player to voluntarily give chips to the be put into the rack raises red flags.

Quote: cyclist

I have to agree with everyone other than Dan on this one. In general casinos know that they are going to win a gamblers money, so the game is never really "fair" the same way buying a product at the grocery store is. I just can't seem to see where it is wrong to use any information the casino gives you to try and minimize the amount of your money that they casino takes, and I don't think I am a dirtbag for thinking this way.

Is someone that is counting cards at blackjack then a dirtbag too?

I have a lot more respect for cheaters than some ( minority ) counters. Never tip, are rude to other players,etc. Almost all books on BJ say you can only tip if dealer is dealing farther past cut card when you have big bets out, allowing you to bet below table minimum,etc. In other words if dealer put his job on the line you can tip but not too much, that's for sure. Usual justification is a
quote in many books " Tip if you want to win less when you win and lose more when you lose " While I agree with late Ken Uston that is was unfair to bar him just because he was able to win, I hate the never tip attitude among some counters.
Somewhere here in my library I have a best selling book on casino gambling in general. I remember when first reading it that author suggesting tipping keno runners as messengers bearing good news. Then in craps section he talked about placing a bet for the boys to reward good service. Since I was dealing BJ at the time I anxiously flipped to the BJ section and tipping advice. Will look for the book later, no need to look up the advice. I remember it verbatim even today.

IT IS NOT YOUR DUTY TO SUPPORT CASINO PERSONNEL !!!

Quote: beyondbj

surely i will believe on all mathematics and stat

but it is really impossible even for i get a 2 3 5 and see the dealer s card is a 2 , should i still raise ?? what i can get is the most lucky occasion to get a push hand only?

and why for dealer 2-J we raise all hand and ignore to see what is our largest card ? for some hand we are impossible to win?

or his strategy already assume we make adjustment by ourselves ? so the +3.4x % ev is for after such adjust or not ?

I just want to get a real perfect strategy for it , or I have made some mistake on this game < since i still never played this in casino

beyong bj, you have never played 3-card poker? Did you?
And you are trying to project yourself as superhero while a degenerate gambler who has played the game for 10mins have the answer to your question..

Quote: buzzpaff

Cheating just a little is like being a little pregnant. Disagree with name calling, but if the shoe fits ?? What about spooking ala the movie " Casino " Having a partner across the pit signaling dealing hole card if he can spot it ? That's the problem with cheating, hard to draw the line...

I'm not so sure about that. Pregnancy is a 'yes' or 'no' situation whearas cheating can come in all shapes and sizes. For example, a person driving at 67mph in a 65mph limit is still speeding but is it the same offence as another person driving at 57mph in a 30mph limit?

I'm afarid that too little blame is being aimed towards the poor and sloppy dealers. The amount of dealers who have paid out when they get '22' in 'Blackjack Switch' can be frustrating to the casino - but not one casino expects the players to give back the money. Not because all the players are cheats - and they certainly do not ban any player that has been paid out on a '22'.

At the end of the day, the dealers have a job to perform and if they do it well then nobody gets overpaid, nobody sees hole cards etc. When they get it wrong, the casino (who hired them and trained them) lose out financially. On the other hand, 'cheats' try and use methods to get money from casinos that are performing to regular standards. Those type should not be cast in the same 'basket' as players who benefit from a poor and sloppy dealer.

In a perfect world, we could just show all 3 cards in 3 card poker as 'honest' people would just call anyway - even knowing they would lose. Hmmm, is that perfect or just fantasy ???

Guess who I'm siding with ? :-)

Collusion is two or more players acting with a secret, common strategy. Some common forms of collusion are: soft play, that is, failing to bet or raise in a situation that would normally merit it, because you don't want to cost your partner money; whipsawing, where partners raise and reraise each other to trap players in between; dumping, where a cheater will deliberately lose to a partner; and signalling, or trading information between partners via signals of some sort, like arranging their chips in a certain manner.

In a poker tournament, when one player is all in and two other players are active in the pot, it is common for the two players with chips left to "check it down", or check on each round of betting through the end of the hand. Unless they explicitly communicate an agreement about checking it down, this is not collusion.[1]

I took verbal abuse from an active player in this exact set of circumstances when I bet out with top pair and he had to muck his backdoor flush draw. Just because we don't signal each other does not mean are not colluding.

You know, deep down I am not really enamoured of this gaming industry I work in,
but I also feel that from interacting from the customers/gamblers/players that I deal with both at work and at this site,

and the "professionals" that I work with....

that there's a huge realm to the gamblers' attitude of:

"how much crap can I get away with against the bad old 'enemy house' that's tryin' to separate me from my money - "

and how many shots can I take against the house that I can justify to myself [and here] - as just part of this big game of gambling."

It seems that a big part of the "juice" and "the fire" of gambling is not just in the action of the cards and dice, and the ride our money takes -

but the juice in winning the war of countles rifle shots between house and gambler, of an 'us against them' type of thing.

If the dice and the cards don't always give it to you the way you want,
then you're somehow and additionally 'justified' to take your share and your shots in other ways, from everything from hole card flashing, advantage play, and dealer errors, to whatever you can get away with.

It's like accepting an B+ instead of a C- by cheating - as just fine to get away with, - but that it is unacceptable to accept an A+ from a D- also by cheating. The is exactly what I find in my industry, in many of my [gambling] customers' behavior at the casino, and here at this board, flat out open and in plain Englsh.

I'm no longer stunned by the number gamblers and industry people whose view of the "real game" has become a little bit to a whole lot warped, to the point where their ethics in gaming would be considered truly perverse outside of the casino, card room, or gambler's forum.

Taking advantage of a dealer error or casino error is really a lot like taking advantage of a newly hired convenience store clerk who stepped a little to far from the cash register when you had a clear shot to snatch a $20 bill - and you just took it because you had a shot. It is like:
"HEY! It was her JOB to protect the cash register, - so her moving away too many feet from it, to handle a spilled milk container, made it HER fault that I was able snatch that $20 that was partially hanging out of the register.

I see this attitude in spades in gaming, - from gamblers to, Gaming Industry Support personnel, to pundits that advise on cheating, card counting, and camoflage, and other tricks, in ways and approaches that would never be considered fair game in any other industry.

Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

Dan You forgot to add one word so allow me AMEN!!!!

Dan:

You're in line at Best Buy, picking up the latest video game. You're about to check out, and on your way up to the register, you see tomorrow's ad. The video game is going to be $20 cheaper tomorrow! However, Best Buy will not honor this price today. You weren't going to play the video game tonight, and you're going to be right around Best Buy tomorrow.

I'm sure you would just pay the $20 extra because that is the price and it would be unfair for you to know tomorrow's price.

Thanks!
I am a rare gambler and gaming industry worker who feels it only okay to get your juice from the results of the game, the dice, the cards, or the wheel, and not from the crap we can get away with around it - as the real game we're about.

Quote: Paigowdan

Taking advantage of a dealer error or casino error is really a lot like taking advantage of a newly hired convenience store clerk who stepped a little to far from the cash register when you had a clear shot to snatch a $20 bill - and you just took it because you had a shot. It is like:
"HEY! It was her JOB to protect the cash register, - so her moving away too many feet from it, to handle a spilled milk container, made it HER fault that I was able snatch that $20 that was partially hanging out of the register.

No, it's nothing like that at all. It's a lot more like a new convenience store clerk who accidentally scratches a $1 lottery scratch ticket, and says "Oh, I'm sorry, this one has been scratched, and it's a $2 winner, do you want to buy it?

Quote: FinsRule

Dan:

You're in line at Best Buy, picking up the latest video game. You're about to check out, and on your way up to the register, you see tomorrow's ad. The video game is going to be $20 cheaper tomorrow! However, Best Buy will not honor this price today. You weren't going to play the video game tonight, and you're going to be right around Best Buy tomorrow.

I'm sure you would just pay the $20 extra because that is the price and it would be unfair for you to know tomorrow's price.

No....I'd buy something when I'd want it without sweating it and at the price it's at.
Just because I would refuse to steal something doesn't mean I seek it out when it's a bad value either.
I don't drive an extra 6 miles to save 4c on a gallon of gas either.

I don't buy the comparison to keeping an overpayment by a cashier. That, I agree, is like stealing. However, I see getting free information as something different. Much like I would not feel guilty about exploiting an opponent's tell in poker.

Quote: Wizard

I don't buy the comparison to keeping an overpayment by a cashier. That, I agree, is like stealing. However, I see getting free information as something different. Much like I would not feel guilty about exploiting an opponent's tell in poker.

Wiz you opened a can of worms now. You are playing hold'em poker and it's easy to see the cards of the player next to
you when he checks them. Do you politey remind him to be more careful, not say anything at all, warn him once and that's
all ? Any reply from anyone, please justify your answer.

Quote: Nareed

I'm with the Wizard on this one.

Dan, if you're holding Q,10,5 and see the dealer has a king, would you still go for the play bet because it's good strategy against an unkown hand? I wouldn't.

I think hole-carding is cheating only when 1) the dealer is colluding with the player and 2) the player uses a device to see a card he otherwise couldn't see.

With the Q,10,5 hand seeing a dealer's King, I'd announce to the dealer that he's flashing cards, and has to stop it, telling him the card that I saw to prove it to him, then throw in the hand face up with the PLAY bet.
I'd tell him to TAKE my bet because the cards had already won the hand anyway, but that I'd appreciate to experience real gambling instead of this.

cheating is using ANY improper game information or improper occurance to your own advantage - and that you are aware that you are accepting ANY illicit benefits AT ALL.

It doesn't matter if you had used any device, or if the dealer had colluded with you, that's irrelevant.
It matters if you ACCEPTED and TOOK what wasn't rightfully your property, even if it was from an unnoticed accident, slip-up or error - especially if it is something desirable like MONEY IN THE FORM OF CASINO CHIPS.

If you KNOW there was a gaffe or a mistake - whether or NOT you committed the gaffe yourself, or the dealer had BY ACCIDENT or by collusion - that you willfully accepted AND TOOK these improper proceeds - you're a CROOK, a THIEF, a DIRTBAG

As a dealer I've seen and dealt with so many frigging shot-takers and thiefs who'd justify - or be blind to - the worst ethical and crooked behavior, that I'm admittedly VERY intolerant of anything that crosses "the line," in action or in approving attitude of it.

And It really shows in me here, I admit it.
This subject REALLY seperates the DEALER from the GAMBLER, in a dealer who has seen to much and has had it with a lot of gamblers and the gambler's justifying their shot-taking. Notice I didn't say you gamblers, because it us gamblers - a REALLY mixed bad at every level.

Quote: buzzpaff

You are playing hold'em poker and it's easy to see the cards of the player next to you when he checks them. Do you politey remind him to be more careful, not say anything at all, warn him once and that's all ?

I would warn him once. Why is it different for a poker player? It is hard to put into words, but I think it is just good poker etiquette. Meanwhile a dealer is supposed to be a trained professional.

Quote: Paigowdan

you're a CROOK, a THIEF, a DIRTBAG .

So be it.

I'm reminded of something that happened on "The Price is Right." I forget what the game was, but when the contestant came up, the gaming device displayed the price the contestant had to guess. The camera caught it just for an instant. Bob barker asked the guy whether he'd seen it. The contestant said yes. Bob told him he'd won, without having to play the game.

So, should he have declined the prize because the device, or the person controlling it, gave him free information? I say no.

Quote: Wizard

I would warn him once. Why is it different for a poker player? It is hard to put into words, but I think it is just good poker etiquette. Meanwhile a dealer is supposed to be a trained professional.

Quote: Paigowdan

you're a CROOK, a THIEF, a DIRTBAG .

So be it.

Mike, and all forum members:
Let me say that I appear to be very strongly ad shockingly anti-gambler, and virulently anti-"advantage play." True.
I am a bit of a burnt-out dealer, and so I have been getting very stressed with anything that appears to smack of shot-taking.

I have been dealing a lot of $3 craps, which is perhaps the worst envornment in terms of Anti-dealer and "anything-goes" that there is in the casino pit.

At work, and as Mike pointed out - I am required to be professional and kind and smiley dealer and all that (which I am) - while bottling up a ton of irritation and stress and all sorts of shit from some cheats and petty shot-takers.

So....when I felt that I saw a post that had a bit of (or a lot of - doesn't matter) of the "Hi! Fellow members, can ya help me be a better casino cheat, or shot taker, or advantage player," I responded in a bit of a nut-ball fashion. I was a bit angry at the direction that the thread was going, and in my heavily bias opinion I lashed out at anything that smacked of advantage play, or anti-dealer, and what have you.

I was like "That's it! This is a gaming Industry and Gambler's Forum! Why are we endorsing this crap! Don't use illicit info for personal gambling profit! Tell the dealer if he's exposing his hole card - don't use it to personal advantage" - yada yada yada.

I still have a bit of a position like that, both on a moral basis, and from dealing tons of $5 tables where I had experienced tons of shot-takers.
But I didn't mean to be rough or nasty. I love ya all - I disagree with some things here passionately, but I should always be amicable.

if the dealer carelessly take your bet for a push hand or even a winning hand

and you dont notice the mistake , do u think the casino will give u back ?

they sure wont discover it or just earn more by such a careless dealer

is it the casino are protected to only earn more than house edge but not less?

so all counter or skillful player who make the casino earn a little bit less are thief ?

Quote: Paigowdan

The 22 year old kid who did this - for just laughs - has a permanent Casino Fraud arrest record in his history. As far as I am concerned as a casino dealer who has to deal with slick-ass players - serves him the f*ck right.

Do you ever hustle and bully 22 yr old kids for tips? I just don't get the holy attitude of casinos and their employees sometimes.

Quote: clarkacal

Do you ever hustle and bully 22 yr old kids for tips? I just don't get the holy attitude of casinos and their employees sometimes.

I agree! I absolutely detest fellow dealers who shamelessly badger, con, or hustle players for tips. Disgraceful, and I side with the players when that occurs.
As for the 22 year old kid who tried to rip off the Wild West casino by repeatedly past posting on a BJ game and had gotten busted - it is the same as he would have gotten if he had committed theft or fraud - but getting busted there "makes sense," and that "is derserved."

Believe me, I am just as down about a lot of dealers and casino pit supervisors as I am about many players.
There is this very purvasive "get over on someone" or "get away with something" attitude on live games - and in the industry - that seems to permeate a large section of the people who play or work in the industry. It is Part and parcel of the nature of many people in this industry to a considerable degree.

I will FULLY admit here that it is begining to get to me after these years.

Some [routine] examples:
I'm dealing on a busy crap game, and a player places two quarters ($50) on the don't pass - AFTER a point of four is rolled, trying to sneak the bet in. I see this, I put a LAY lammer his chips, and say "Sir - you're laying the 4 for $50." He starts arguing the he had the bet out during the come-out, when it was a open lie, and he does this shot to make $50, not $25 minus the vig. He thinks nothing of it - but would never shoplift because he's an "honest decent regular guy."

Dealing Blackjack: Player chunks up his last bet up to $75 before calling it a night and gets a 12 against my 9. Okay. He hits, gets a deuce, then hits his hand to bust with a 10 card. Then claims he did not signal a hit knowing that a floorman wasn't watching the game at the time. Floorman comes over, gives him a break, lets him take his money and leave. If he had won, he would have taken $150 and down to the cage.

Playing EZ Pai Gow (no commission Pai Gow, ahem) at the Cannery, (spying on my game) - and the dealer gets a queen-high hand. She forgets that the dealer hand pushes the table on that condition, and starts to pay out to the table. I say, "Ma'am, you got a Queen high, the table pushes." She says, "Yup, that's right - thanks for reminding me," and pushes the table. Players bicker with me saying, with a "HEY! She would have PAID us! I had $60 bucks out!!" I said, "She wasn't supposed to! You don't want money that isn't yours!"

This is the kind of petty thievery and shot-taking that goes on day in and day out in gaming. It's ugly, and it's just wrong.

I AM dismayed at the pervasive "It's okay to take a shot or cheat" attitude so common in gaming. I see it at work, I see it when I play, and I see threads here at this board for requests here on how to carry out advantage play - or threads with attitudes of "Hey, WTF, Dan....what's YOUR problem with it."
I think it's unethical, I think it screws up and hurts what is an otherwise great and legitimate industry, and we need to check our attitude and positions on such things.

I would warn him once. Why is it different for a poker player? It is hard to put into words, but I think it is just good poker etiquette. Meanwhile a dealer is supposed to be a trained professional.

Correct wiz

Lets approach the professional aspect of this. A bank teller gives you $120 cash back on a deposit when you only requested $100.
His mistake and he will have to pay that $20 when he comes up short. A dealer pays you $25 too much on a BJ and it's all OK because it's the house's money ?? A fine line indeed but the source of Dan's frustration.

Thought of making this next point in a PM but perhaps it needs to be made in this forum. Dan, bottling this all up inside while smiling at customers can be deadly. You need to consider changing jobs within the casino or to a different industry. Your posts here are a release of some of that tension but life is too short already and these bottled up emotions and daily sources of frustration can not be healthy.
As a fellow inventor I know financial choices are not always available. All my money is tied up in non-durables, food, clothing, rent, etc LOL
Seriously Dan try and get your book in ebook form, sell it on ebay, persue patents and other dreams. But most important of all, get another job before this one kills you.

Quote: Paigowdan

Oh...

And the strategy for cheating in a Nevada Approved Casino by cheating/Peeking at the dealer's hole card??....

1. A fenoly arrest based on the "knowing" player's action.
2. Termination - with loss of gaming license and his gaming career for the career dealer, or even felony arrest (and a prison jumpsuit) - if convicted of collusion with the player. [The dealer in question recieved a simple termination, with allowance to re-hire, because it was a $6 total mistake.]

I have seen that dealer's termination - and that player's felony arrest - at the Wild Wild West Casino, - Station's Casino property five years ago - for a player making a $3 cap on a $3 BJ game after a dealer had busted. This was back in late 2006. The Casino Manager, "Mike P." made the call. I agree with him.

Surveillance had called Mike P. the Casinomanager and Metro Police - and the casino manager - for an action.
Mike P. requested a Metro Police arrest action.
For a $3 bet capping when "silver" was used as $1 chips.
The arrest Had Happened. A college kid on break.

A 22 year old kid from California playing $3 Blackjack - who had tried to cheat a casino for three dollars for "laughs and giggles" while on spring break, got caught by the surviellance crew.

The Casino manager Mike P. insisted that the asshole kid get an arrest booking for it - and the vetertan dealer who missed a quick "bet-capping" get fired.

Both had happened. Mike P. had seen to it - God Bless him, actually, really, as a Casino Manager.

The dealer who had gotten fired ("Bill H.") actually got me my job at my current casino five years ago, and he later worked at "FH" as a crap dealer, because he only made a "dealer mistake of less than $25" - he missed a "past-posting" cap of only $3, but twice on game play action, on a Blackjack game.


The 22 year old kid who did this - for just laughs - has a permanent Casino Fraud arrest record in his history. As far as I am concerned as a casino dealer who has to deal with slick-ass players - serves him the f*ck right.

The California kid who did this $3 "bet cap fraud" twice in a Las Vgas casino, in back-to-back Blackjack deals, while on a spring break vacation
- now has a Permanent United States "Casino Fraud" Arrest History. He can't get a Corporate Job because of it now, Univeristy degree or not.

As far as I am concerned, it serves him the fuck right.

Now...You were asking something about in THIS thread... - "if I can see the dealers hole-card on Three-Card Poker - and therefore cheat the casino for some money to feel GOOD about my slick gambling actions -
- and is this OKAY??!!"

If you come into this board without any ethics lessons then...Duh..no...

According to the state of Nevada and other states hole carding is not illegal. You can spin it any way you choose but it doesn't change anything.

Your contempt for your players is very telling. Hopefully you are able to suppress it so you can get the tips that you so richly deserve.

Your schadenfreude aside, I think and I hope that the 22 year old kid will be just fine. Hopefully he's learned his lesson.

Dan -

I'm going to partially retract some of what I said in my earlier post.

You're right in that if a dealer makes a mistake and pays too much, the players SHOULD correct the situation.

I'm in the group that would keep silent. And that group is the majority. The many reasons for this have already been mentioned several times in this thread.

Suffice to say, in a casino, ethics tend to take a beating.


I was going to ask what the Gaming Board thinks of taking advantage of situations, like exposed dealer cards. Ben beat me to it:

Quote: benbakdoff

According to the state of Nevada and other states hole carding is not illegal.

On the other hand, does the Gaming code say that a player should alert the dealer when such an event occurs? Probably not.

What would Gaming say, in the scenario you described earlier, about a dealer who pays rather than pushes, the Queen high in EZ Pai Gow? Does the gaming code say the players are responsible to report it and/or return the money?

Does it even say that they need to comply if the casino discovers it afterwards and comes to request it? It wasn't EZPG, but that exact scenario was discussed a few months ago.


The kid that got busted for $6? Serves him right. There's a HUGE difference between bet capping, past posting, bet clipping, card swapping, using a shiner, etc., and just taking advantage of situation caused by a sloppy dealer. I'll say it again: Sorry if that hits home. The reality is, I suspect it WON'T hit home. I suspect you're better than most dealers.

Should the dealer in that case have gotten fired? Depends. Did his record show other instances of bet capping that he missed? Did the casino manager feel that he saw it, and had no intention of reporting it?

Frankly, I feel firing the dealer was excessive, but may have been justified.

----

On the subject of hole carding in poker, if a player next to me exposes his cards, I not only don't say anything, I will use the information any time I can.

I think that casinos actually LOVE wannabe advantage gamblers. That's because most of them fail to do it right and lose to the casino in the long run. So an extra $3 blackjack bet accidentally paid to the player will be earned back many times over by the casino as the player is sure to come back.

The feeling of having "one over the casino" or to "beat them" is a very strong motivation for player to keep coming back and casinos ruthlessly rake profits based on this false sentiment. Once in a Texas Holdem Bonus table a player sitting next to me told me that the casino has surely made an error with the odds of the game and is losing money on it over long run. So he kept coming back every night hoping to make profit.

This can also be seen in online casino marketing when players are often lured into depositing by sending e-mails which say something like: "We are giving out $25 bonuses but deposit quickly before the casino manager sees how generous we are being right now".

So, Paigowdan is correct in stating that a big part of the "juice" of gambling is in the "I beat them in their own game" type of thing but this mentality is actually something that the casinos are often themselves banking on.

Skipped through a little bit of this post but fwiw:

Catching a dealer's card while sitting at the table (Hole Carding) is not illegal in Nevada. Personal ethics aside.
Spooking, or catching a glimpse at the card from somewhere other than the gaming table to my knowledge has yet to be challenged but is suspected to be illegal.

As an aside to the original All-In Hold'em game where a player could wager 100x his ante (this was later changed), someone had most assuredly screwed up. Add in a sloppy dealer and this game was an invitation to slaughter the house.

If am overpaid on a bet then I should return the overpayment. Capping a bet is cheatting and I agrree should be prosecuted. However seeing a hole card, if nothing is done illegally to obtain that information, I do not view as cheating. I know how to count cards in BJ. I don't. But sometimes a large swing is obvious whether counting or not. Am I a cheat for using this obvious information?

On the poker hole card question, I would warn the player 99% of the time. The 1% of the time when I'm at a table with a jerk.........

Nate