Spinning Roulette Sections
November 26th, 2009 at 1:45:39 AM
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My favorite argument about roulette is whether or not a dealer can spin a certain section. I've more or less been in the casino industry for 20 years. I started dealing roulette in March 1990. I can assure you it's random. There is NOBODY that can spin a certain section with certainty. I wonder who thinks I'm wrong and who thinks I'm right. It's perhaps one of the greatest debates (next to dice control in craps perhaps?) for casinos.
Discuss.
Discuss.
November 26th, 2009 at 6:42:44 AM
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I agree with you. I do know dealers who believe they can control where it lands but I am very doubtful. Not that it will be a definitive test but I am trying to arrange a challenge with the dealers I know who think they can control the result. The test will be that they must get the ball to stop in a designated half of the wheel 60 or more times out of 100. To someone that believes they can control the result I would think this would seem pretty easy. The Wizard tells me that this will occur only 2.88% of the time randomly. I'm generously offering 2 to 1 odds to those that accept the challenge.
November 26th, 2009 at 6:43:25 AM
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I don't think it would be worth a casino's interest to try to cheat the public.
If they did they could get caught
They do pretty well on american roulette anyway
TommyB
If they did they could get caught
They do pretty well on american roulette anyway
TommyB
November 26th, 2009 at 7:03:52 AM
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Quote: RiverRockMy favorite argument about roulette is whether or not a dealer can spin a certain section. I've more or less been in the casino industry for 20 years. I started dealing roulette in March 1990. I can assure you it's random. There is NOBODY that can spin a certain section with certainty. I wonder who thinks I'm wrong and who thinks I'm right. It's perhaps one of the greatest debates (next to dice control in craps perhaps?) for casinos.
Discuss.
It would be hard, but perhaps it can be done sporadically.
Say the dealer is looking straight at the zero and call that the Home position. A delaer tries to make the wheel spin so it winds up at Home again. With practice he may be able to do it once in a while. It's "merely" a matter of applying consistent force each time.
Of course that's also the problem. People can't quantitatively measure the force they apply to any given task at atny given time. Consider a quarterback throwing the ball. A lot of times he'll throw the ball precisely where he wants it, but many other times he won't (it will go high, low, wide left, etc). And a QB spends hours a week practicing, plus he has years of experience.
Another problem for the dealer is he can't adjust the wheel after each spin. So if he misses the zero and instead looks at, say, the 13, how does he get back Home?
And that's just the wheel. He also has to launch the ball. Therefore even if he can get the wheel to stop where he wants it, the ball can end up anywhere. He has to launch the ball a certain way at a precise moment in order to have a chance of having the ball land on a given wheel section.
I doubt a mechanical device controlling both wheel and ball could achieve consistent results, much less a human dealer. But it would be a fun experiment to try.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
November 26th, 2009 at 7:22:38 AM
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Quote: zippedupI don't think it would be worth a casino's interest to try to cheat the public.
If they did they could get caught
They do pretty well on american roulette anyway
TommyB
The casino eschewing cheating? The more likely event would be the dealer getting into collusion with another player to get rich with this ability.
Hey! haven't you seen the movie "Casablanca"? All Rick had to do was nod to the guy running the wheel and whatever he wanted got done toot sweet!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 26th, 2009 at 7:29:09 AM
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Its the same thing with Roulette as it is with Poker or Blackjack:
Despite any player-dealer banter or player-believed myths about control over the outcome of the events, if the dealer really could affect the outcome reliably that player would not be sitting there at all because each of the seats would be filled with the dealer's relatives and friends.
Oh sure, one can split an already fine hair and engage in discussions of just how non-random a pseudo-random number generator is, but we all know that it is random enough for the casino's auditors. The same can be done with regard to a spinning wheel and various frets and speeds but lets face it, the dealer can't really affect the outcome. Do you think those computers the casino owns wouldn't detect a table that was running at a loss? Do you think the Floorman is really just a grinning idiot and that the surveillance camera guy is focusing on some woman's cleavage instead of the roulette wheel?
If the croupier (dealer) could exercise sufficient influence over the little ball how is it that roulette dealers often quit the casino for other jobs?
Despite any player-dealer banter or player-believed myths about control over the outcome of the events, if the dealer really could affect the outcome reliably that player would not be sitting there at all because each of the seats would be filled with the dealer's relatives and friends.
Oh sure, one can split an already fine hair and engage in discussions of just how non-random a pseudo-random number generator is, but we all know that it is random enough for the casino's auditors. The same can be done with regard to a spinning wheel and various frets and speeds but lets face it, the dealer can't really affect the outcome. Do you think those computers the casino owns wouldn't detect a table that was running at a loss? Do you think the Floorman is really just a grinning idiot and that the surveillance camera guy is focusing on some woman's cleavage instead of the roulette wheel?
If the croupier (dealer) could exercise sufficient influence over the little ball how is it that roulette dealers often quit the casino for other jobs?
November 26th, 2009 at 7:35:30 AM
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Yeah, but thats a wheelman's brake and it doesn't affect where the ball will drop but only where it will not drop. I do hope you don't believe all you see in the movies. Particularly Casablanca! That airplane in the background was one third scale and the mechanic working on it was a midgett.Quote: odiousgambitHey! haven't you seen the movie "Casablanca"? All Rick had to do was nod to the guy running the wheel and whatever he wanted got done toot sweet!
November 26th, 2009 at 8:34:01 AM
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Remember also that there are generally procedures dealers are suppose to follow to prevent attempted manipulation like looking away from the wheel when releasing the ball and varying the speed of the wheel on different spins.
November 26th, 2009 at 8:36:55 AM
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As well as using two different sized balls during a shift... Its hard to develop a "touch" or "sense". It would be perhaps equivalent to learning to bowl while alternating between two vastly different bowling balls or playing tennis while alternating between two vastly different racquets.
November 30th, 2009 at 9:51:34 PM
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I'd like to ask, in Las Vegas the casinos which offer single zero roulette do they accept section bets? Like Tier, Orphelins or neigbors? In Europe these bets are very popular in most casinos.
December 1st, 2009 at 7:55:27 AM
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Quote: kaszinoI'd like to ask, in Las Vegas the casinos which offer single zero roulette do they accept section bets? Like Tier, Orphelins or neigbors? In Europe these bets are very popular in most casinos.
I'm quite sure the European wheels offer that. I lean towards the yes on the regular single-zero wheels.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 7th, 2011 at 5:00:56 AM
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On the basis of your credentials, I believe you; however there is a true story that my father used to tell:
Bert and Ed went into a bar in Reno in the 1930's. There was a roulette table. They went over to the table. Bert placed a silver dollar on red and Ed placed a silver dollar on black. The bartender came over to spin the wheel. He looked at the bets, gave the bettors a "funny look," spun the wheel, and it came up zero.
Bert and Ed left in disgust, never to return. I thing that was bad strategy on the part of the dealer. Both boys were heavy drinkers and he could have sold them quite a few drinks. I remarked that they should have gone back much later, placed the same bets, and after the dealer had thrown the ball, placed a split bet on 0 and 00.
Bert was my father.
Bert and Ed went into a bar in Reno in the 1930's. There was a roulette table. They went over to the table. Bert placed a silver dollar on red and Ed placed a silver dollar on black. The bartender came over to spin the wheel. He looked at the bets, gave the bettors a "funny look," spun the wheel, and it came up zero.
Bert and Ed left in disgust, never to return. I thing that was bad strategy on the part of the dealer. Both boys were heavy drinkers and he could have sold them quite a few drinks. I remarked that they should have gone back much later, placed the same bets, and after the dealer had thrown the ball, placed a split bet on 0 and 00.
Bert was my father.
A fool is someone whose pencil wears out before its eraser does. - Marilyn Vos Savant
October 7th, 2011 at 7:17:00 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitHey! haven't you seen the movie "Casablanca"? All Rick had to do was nod to the guy running the wheel and whatever he wanted got done toot sweet!
Exactly why I thought it was bizarre when I discovered Bogart's Casino, an online casino with a Casablanca theme, targeting the Chinese. Yes, I did have to give the Roulette wheels a try, and, yes, of course I bet 22. Lost every time. False advertising if you ask me.
October 7th, 2011 at 8:38:53 AM
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Quote: heatherFalse advertising if you ask me.
Alas, everything about beautiful women, Hollywood and Las Vegas seems to be false advertising.
Croupiers, no matter how dishonest, don't get rich. Nor do the bettors who think the wheels are biased. All the casino has to do is switch the wheel's innards with a neighboring table and not tell anyone.
April 26th, 2012 at 5:43:19 PM
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AlanMendelson says in another thread about sector shooting:
"don't get me started about roulette. Ive seen experienced dealer targets groups of numbers on a wheel, usually four slots."
I say its not possible. The Wiz says its not possible.
In the 100 year old book Monte Carlo Anecdotes,
the author devotes 13 pages to why its not possible
for a roulette dealer to target sections of the wheel
accurately. Its never been proven it can be done
before or after he wrote those 13 pages.
"don't get me started about roulette. Ive seen experienced dealer targets groups of numbers on a wheel, usually four slots."
I say its not possible. The Wiz says its not possible.
In the 100 year old book Monte Carlo Anecdotes,
the author devotes 13 pages to why its not possible
for a roulette dealer to target sections of the wheel
accurately. Its never been proven it can be done
before or after he wrote those 13 pages.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
April 26th, 2012 at 5:50:12 PM
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NAREED " It would be hard, but perhaps it can be done sporadically."
I believe the mathematical term for that is LUCK .
I believe the mathematical term for that is LUCK .
April 27th, 2012 at 6:30:38 AM
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That article has a lot of French Roulette terms in there making it difficult to comprehend.Quote: EvenBobGo here and read what they wrote on this 100 years ago.
However, the jist of it is this:
If it were possible to have spin control, somebody would have done it. I.E. He'd have his friends play when he was dealing, and they'd break the bank. In 100+ years, there's no evidence of anyone having done it.
While I agree with this argument, it has one flaw: Management would backoff the players, or fire the dealer, or both, long before the casino lost much.
That said, I'd believe in Craps dice control before I believe in Roulette spin control.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
April 27th, 2012 at 7:06:12 AM
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To make it more simple.
Do you think somebody can spin a certain section (If the Ball and the Roulette wheel are going in the same direction)?
If somebody can spin a certain section (If the ball and the Roulette wheel are going in the same direction).
Then it is possible somebody can spin a certain section (with Ball and the Roulette wheel going the opposite direction).
Do you think somebody can spin a certain section (If the Ball and the Roulette wheel are going in the same direction)?
If somebody can spin a certain section (If the ball and the Roulette wheel are going in the same direction).
Then it is possible somebody can spin a certain section (with Ball and the Roulette wheel going the opposite direction).
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
April 27th, 2012 at 9:25:45 AM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearThat article has a lot of French Roulette terms in there making it difficult to comprehend.Quote: EvenBobGo here and read what they wrote on this 100 years ago.
However, the jist of it is this:
If it were possible to have spin control, somebody would have done it. I.E. He'd have his friends play when he was dealing, and they'd break the bank. In 100+ years, there's no evidence of anyone having done it.
While I agree with this argument, it has one flaw: Management would backoff the players, or fire the dealer, or both, long before the casino lost much.
That said, I'd believe in Craps dice control before I believe in Roulette spin control.
It's possible someone is doing it, but are "getting it slowly". I think it's a fallacy to say it can't be done because no-one has been caught doing it (I think there's other reasons it can't be done consistently, but I am not so sure of those).
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
April 27th, 2012 at 9:50:38 AM
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Using a laser to estimate likely result of a spin has been used profitably in the past. While I don't think a croupier can hit a sector with enough regularity to make it profitable, it is possible to narrow the likely outcomes of any spin to a small enough number to make some money if a device is used.
So... if a device can do it, why not a highly trained human eye+brain?
So... if a device can do it, why not a highly trained human eye+brain?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
April 27th, 2012 at 10:32:48 AM
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Determining the speed of the wheel and ball as it begins to decay might indicate a sector (usually an octet). The problem seems to be that the human eye does not develop a "skill" to perform this task. I have heard fairly detailed reports of an attempt to use biofeedback to "train" someone to sense octets (this would be an attempt to actively teach the eye rather than merely await the eye developing the skill). The eye apparently never learned well enough to survive a real session at the wheel.Quote: AyecarumbaSo... if a device can do it, why not a highly trained human eye+brain?
April 27th, 2012 at 11:59:54 AM
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I think its almost impossible for the dealer to control the spin for any meaningfull effect (influencing the outcome to overcome the house edge).
For sure it is impossible for the average dealer.
For someone who spends thousand of hours practising such skill and also has a natural ability (the way that a top athlete can do almost unbelievable things), then maybe such a person can control the spin enough to influence the outcome. But such a person would be unlikely to be a dealer, he would be doing something else with his life. Even if such a dealer existed then he must willing to do something illegal or at least unethical. ie work with a player accomplice to make money on this.
If you take all these ifs combined, then you come to the conclusion that is almost impossible.
But, you can never be sure that there is not such a dealer. If there is and he is willing to cheat the casino he works for and he is also clever, he would not hit the casino hard because the casino would figure him out. Instead he would hit the casino slowly over time, using different accomplices.
For sure it is impossible for the average dealer.
For someone who spends thousand of hours practising such skill and also has a natural ability (the way that a top athlete can do almost unbelievable things), then maybe such a person can control the spin enough to influence the outcome. But such a person would be unlikely to be a dealer, he would be doing something else with his life. Even if such a dealer existed then he must willing to do something illegal or at least unethical. ie work with a player accomplice to make money on this.
If you take all these ifs combined, then you come to the conclusion that is almost impossible.
But, you can never be sure that there is not such a dealer. If there is and he is willing to cheat the casino he works for and he is also clever, he would not hit the casino hard because the casino would figure him out. Instead he would hit the casino slowly over time, using different accomplices.
April 27th, 2012 at 12:15:01 PM
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A player can at least look at the ball and the wheel to get feedback and improve his skills ...
A croupier can not look at the ball or the wheel for 'x' seconds prior to release and must focus on a specific point on the table for that time period that shows his head is turned away from the wheel.
A croupier can not look at the ball or the wheel for 'x' seconds prior to release and must focus on a specific point on the table for that time period that shows his head is turned away from the wheel.
April 27th, 2012 at 2:51:52 PM
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The urban legend in the industry is, every casino
has a number of these skilled dealers to come
in and zap the high rollers at will. These would be
very dangerous people, the casino would be
cheating, and these dealers would eventually
use their skills for their own gain. This urban
legend goes all the way back to 18th century
Europe and has never been shown to be true.
It sounds logical, but the logistics involved are
insurmountable. I can do it on my home wheel
with a lot of setup, but in a casino on a spin to
spin basis it would be impossible.
has a number of these skilled dealers to come
in and zap the high rollers at will. These would be
very dangerous people, the casino would be
cheating, and these dealers would eventually
use their skills for their own gain. This urban
legend goes all the way back to 18th century
Europe and has never been shown to be true.
It sounds logical, but the logistics involved are
insurmountable. I can do it on my home wheel
with a lot of setup, but in a casino on a spin to
spin basis it would be impossible.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
