Am I right to be livid about this UTH floor decision?
November 16th, 2023 at 6:00:09 PM
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I have played many hours of UTH at my local casino, and would like to hear opinions about the following situation which occurred tonight.
A new player sits at my table, it’s his first time playing UTH, both myself and the dealer have been teaching him the rules (3x or 4x pre, 2x flop, just the basic fundamental rules)
I’ve never seen this guy before in my life.
5th hand he’s seen, he’s got $15 ante $15 blind $5 trips out, he gets dealt something like 3-7 or 2-7, he says “fold”
Dealer takes his chips and as she takes his cards I say “NO! WAIT YOU CAN CHECK!!!”
No cards have been exposed. No flop, nothing.
Dealer hesitates, then says sorry, he folded. I say, please get the floor, this is not right, you should let him check.
Floor comes over, dealer tells him what happened, I tell floor this guy has never played this game before, he didn’t realize he could check. His chips are still in front of the dealer tray, his cards are still right in front of him. How can you let him fold, just put the chips back and let him check and play out the hand.
Floor says sorry, he said he folded, it’s a fold. I ask for a supervisor because I just don’t think this is right.
Superviser comes over and agrees with floor, says his hand is dead.
I couldn’t believe it and was so upset I said this is my last hand and I left.
Was this a poor floor decision in y’all’s opinion? I told the floor “you really need this guys $35 that badly?” which he didn’t seem to appreciate
A new player sits at my table, it’s his first time playing UTH, both myself and the dealer have been teaching him the rules (3x or 4x pre, 2x flop, just the basic fundamental rules)
I’ve never seen this guy before in my life.
5th hand he’s seen, he’s got $15 ante $15 blind $5 trips out, he gets dealt something like 3-7 or 2-7, he says “fold”
Dealer takes his chips and as she takes his cards I say “NO! WAIT YOU CAN CHECK!!!”
No cards have been exposed. No flop, nothing.
Dealer hesitates, then says sorry, he folded. I say, please get the floor, this is not right, you should let him check.
Floor comes over, dealer tells him what happened, I tell floor this guy has never played this game before, he didn’t realize he could check. His chips are still in front of the dealer tray, his cards are still right in front of him. How can you let him fold, just put the chips back and let him check and play out the hand.
Floor says sorry, he said he folded, it’s a fold. I ask for a supervisor because I just don’t think this is right.
Superviser comes over and agrees with floor, says his hand is dead.
I couldn’t believe it and was so upset I said this is my last hand and I left.
Was this a poor floor decision in y’all’s opinion? I told the floor “you really need this guys $35 that badly?” which he didn’t seem to appreciate
November 16th, 2023 at 6:07:02 PM
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Seems like it was the right decision except for the trips bet. Trips usually pays whether or not the player folds (the local rules on the trips/fold may be different)
November 16th, 2023 at 6:41:18 PM
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I believe it is the dealer's (and house's) obligation to conduct the hand in accordance with the signaled intent of the player.
He said he wanted to fold.
The fact that you wanted him to play his hand differently is irrelevant. His chips, his cards, he gets to play his hand as well or as badly as he wishes.
He said he wanted to fold.
The fact that you wanted him to play his hand differently is irrelevant. His chips, his cards, he gets to play his hand as well or as badly as he wishes.
May the cards fall in your favor.
November 16th, 2023 at 6:45:40 PM
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It’s free to check, the player didn’t understand that.
I think a good dealer or good floor would have said “it’s free to check, no need to fold”
Oh well
I think a good dealer or good floor would have said “it’s free to check, no need to fold”
Oh well
November 16th, 2023 at 7:16:49 PM
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In a Texas Hold 'em game, I made a mistake like that, and the dealer corrected me after the hand.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 16th, 2023 at 7:22:32 PM
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I think this is not as scandalous as you make it out to be. Yes, a good dealer would have said something like, "Just check, maybe you'll improve." However, it's not required that she (I'll assume the dealer is female) do that. You did say she was teaching him before this. At some point, the player has to stand on his own two feet and play the game without help.
Also, UTH is supposed to be a poker-based game. I've seen it in home-based games where players fold to a check, many times. I always advise that there is no harm to just check and hope you improve. However, 100% of the time the response is along the lines of, "No, I want to fold, just let me out of this hand before I throw more good money after bad." At that point, you have to respect the fold. My point being that folding is an option in poker and what happened here was stupid, but not in violation of the spirit of poker.
Had I been there, I wouldn't have made a stink about it. I wouldn't have liked it, but it wouldn't be enough to voice a complaint.
Not that it's a good comparison, but I was once playing blackjack in Ely and some guy comes up with a match play coupon. I don't remember the details, but he walked out mid-hand angry about something with a cash bet on the table. The dealer took his cash bet, dropped it in the tip box and went on dealing to me. It just goes to show that there needs to be some procedure if the player doesn't want to play out the hand. I would imagine the proper procedure is to put the bet in the rack, scoop of the cards, and move on.
Also, UTH is supposed to be a poker-based game. I've seen it in home-based games where players fold to a check, many times. I always advise that there is no harm to just check and hope you improve. However, 100% of the time the response is along the lines of, "No, I want to fold, just let me out of this hand before I throw more good money after bad." At that point, you have to respect the fold. My point being that folding is an option in poker and what happened here was stupid, but not in violation of the spirit of poker.
Had I been there, I wouldn't have made a stink about it. I wouldn't have liked it, but it wouldn't be enough to voice a complaint.
Not that it's a good comparison, but I was once playing blackjack in Ely and some guy comes up with a match play coupon. I don't remember the details, but he walked out mid-hand angry about something with a cash bet on the table. The dealer took his cash bet, dropped it in the tip box and went on dealing to me. It just goes to show that there needs to be some procedure if the player doesn't want to play out the hand. I would imagine the proper procedure is to put the bet in the rack, scoop of the cards, and move on.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 16th, 2023 at 7:33:06 PM
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Not your hand, not your problem. Stay out of it.
November 16th, 2023 at 7:39:29 PM
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The official rules of Ultimate Texas Holdem say a player's options preflop are to check or to bet 3x or 4x. Folding is not an option preflop or on the flop. Folding can only be done on the river.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
November 16th, 2023 at 8:11:14 PM
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Terrible decision by the dealer and any supervisor after that. Folding is not even an option at that point. The 2 options are check or bet. The dealer should have told the player that at this point he can check or bet and he doesn't make the decision to bet or fold until after the turn/river cards. It's free to play up until that point.
Embarrassing decision and display by all involved.
ZCore13
Embarrassing decision and display by all involved.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 16th, 2023 at 8:25:17 PM
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Thank you. I found the official PDF rules of UTH and indeed, the only possible options for a player preflop are to check, bet 4x or bet 3x.
I submitted a complaint online with the Illinois Gaming Board with the floor supervisor’s name asking them to review this specific situation and make sure this casino’s table game supervisors don’t make this mistake again.
A mistake that in my opinion was overly punitive and left a really bitter taste in my mouth
I submitted a complaint online with the Illinois Gaming Board with the floor supervisor’s name asking them to review this specific situation and make sure this casino’s table game supervisors don’t make this mistake again.
A mistake that in my opinion was overly punitive and left a really bitter taste in my mouth
November 16th, 2023 at 10:08:21 PM
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Rivers?
November 17th, 2023 at 1:46:29 AM
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I agree with you on this one. Folding isn’t even an option according to the rules..
It doesn’t surprise me though.
Many dealers and even more supervisors/ floor people don’t even know the rules of the game.
It doesn’t surprise me though.
Many dealers and even more supervisors/ floor people don’t even know the rules of the game.
Happy days are here again
November 17th, 2023 at 2:37:33 AM
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I have seen this sort of thing with otherwise fairly good players in home poker who will fold to a check. Since they are experienced, I always wonder why they haven't noticed that checking is contagious, and often everyone checks once it gets started. This of course should mean no one has a good hand, exposing maybe somebody who had bet earlier.Quote: Wizard[snip] I've seen it in home-based games where players fold to a check, many times. I always advise that there is no harm to just check and hope you improve. However, 100% of the time the response is along the lines of, "No, I want to fold, just let me out of this hand before I throw more good money after bad." ...
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Worst of all is for when in stud the pot is split, a guy bets after you checked to a check, and you observe everyone who possibly could have 'gone low' fold. You don't really have a good low, but no one knows it. Half the pot now belongs to you almost for sure, what if you had folded to a check? This sort of thing any experienced player should see, yet ...
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 17th, 2023 at 4:47:07 AM
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Quote: FinsRuleRivers?
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Ballys downtown
Which is even more ironic because hardly anyone is playing there, and this is how they choose to treat one of their new players
November 17th, 2023 at 6:43:37 AM
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Great posts here; after reading the OP, I was going to suggest that folding shouldn't even technically be an option, but that has already been covered.
I'd probably call and try to get the Table Games Manager on the phone for all the good it won't do as they probably won't be inclined to change a procedure that results in the house free rolling the rest of the hand. Players also likely don't attempt to fold pre-flop on UTH very often.
Do they have Mississippi Stud there? The reason I ask is because I could understand how a dealer might innocently make such a mistake (as one often folds before the first community card in MS), but the supervisor forcing a player to commit to a decision that the player actually can't do is pretty baffling.
I'd probably call and try to get the Table Games Manager on the phone for all the good it won't do as they probably won't be inclined to change a procedure that results in the house free rolling the rest of the hand. Players also likely don't attempt to fold pre-flop on UTH very often.
Do they have Mississippi Stud there? The reason I ask is because I could understand how a dealer might innocently make such a mistake (as one often folds before the first community card in MS), but the supervisor forcing a player to commit to a decision that the player actually can't do is pretty baffling.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 17th, 2023 at 6:47:22 AM
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Quote: DeucekiesThe official rules of Ultimate Texas Holdem say a player's options preflop are to check or to bet 3x or 4x. Folding is not an option preflop or on the flop. Folding can only be done on the river.
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I know that, but what is supposed to happen if the player refuses to take either action?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 17th, 2023 at 6:59:44 AM
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I just asked a table game manager about this. He said if the player insists on folding the Ante and Blind should be removed and the cards tucked under the Trips bet, to be adjudicated at the end of the hand.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 17th, 2023 at 7:01:41 AM
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In my opinion it wasn’t so much that the player refused to take either action
If was that he just said the wrong word. He said I fold when he meant to say I check. When I instantly informed him and the dealer of this, the dealer and (two!) floors treated it as if it was a point of no turning back the moment he said the word fold
If was that he just said the wrong word. He said I fold when he meant to say I check. When I instantly informed him and the dealer of this, the dealer and (two!) floors treated it as if it was a point of no turning back the moment he said the word fold
November 17th, 2023 at 7:02:24 AM
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After looking at his cards? wow, wouldn't that be the player free-rolling the house?Quote: WizardI just asked a table game manager about this. He said if the player insists on folding the Ante and Blind should be removed ...
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the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 17th, 2023 at 7:19:47 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitAfter looking at his cards? wow, wouldn't that be the player free-rolling the house?
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Yes, after looking at his cards. I do not see how this is free-rolling the house. I might remind you that the Trips bet remains active even if the player folds after the River.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 17th, 2023 at 7:22:48 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitAfter looking at his cards? wow, wouldn't that be the player free-rolling the house?Quote: WizardI just asked a table game manager about this. He said if the player insists on folding the Ante and Blind should be removed ...
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No, even if a player has 2-3
And board is AAA56
Player would want to fold on river, but would still win the “trips bet”
November 17th, 2023 at 7:32:08 AM
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The correct Casino response is clearer now. If there are only two responses, check or raise, and the player decides to do something else, like ‘fold’ or ‘octuple down’, the dealer should inform the player of his two legal options. However, if after being informed, the player still wants to fold, that should be permitted.
November 17th, 2023 at 7:33:51 AM
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Not to beat a dead horse but it seemed clear as soon as the words “I fold” came out of his mouth, both he, myself, and the dealer realized he misspoke. Cards still in front of him, easy to rectify. Yet dealer and floors all refused to allow him to change his response
November 17th, 2023 at 7:52:07 AM
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If a player wishes to fold with 10,6 vs Q in blackjack, there is no rule that says he can't.
Is there a rule that says he can't fold in this game? I believe the implication is a player can fold anytime they want. You can't force a player to do something.
The player made a dumb mistake. It's a learning experience.
I'd be more concerned about why another player flies off the handle on a play that doesn't concern him. Storming out of the casino was over the top and not normal. Mistakes were made, the decision was wrong but move on.
Is there a rule that says he can't fold in this game? I believe the implication is a player can fold anytime they want. You can't force a player to do something.
The player made a dumb mistake. It's a learning experience.
I'd be more concerned about why another player flies off the handle on a play that doesn't concern him. Storming out of the casino was over the top and not normal. Mistakes were made, the decision was wrong but move on.
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 17th, 2023 at 7:54:47 AM
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It is not possible to fold UTH online. You can abandon a game with a player decision pending. For such games, there are usually procedures spelled out on the help screen for automatically making a player decision for an abandoned game. This can happen after as little as 24 hours have passed from the point the player quit the game while a decision is pending. This SG UTH game says nothing in the rules about resolving player decisions automatically. I abandoned this game and came back and finished it later.
For online live-dealer blackjack, a decision will be made for you very quickly. I have lost a lot of EV for disconnects or for geolocation hiccups playing live dealer. I will only play live dealer if it is part of a very good promotion.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
November 17th, 2023 at 8:02:13 AM
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What happens online if a BJ player refuses to act after two cards?
The older I get, the better I recall things that never happened
November 17th, 2023 at 8:03:21 AM
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Quote: billryanIf a player wishes to fold with 10,6 vs Q in blackjack, there is no rule that says he can't.
Is there a rule that says he can't fold in this game? I believe the implication is a player can fold anytime they want. You can't force a player to do something.
The player made a dumb mistake. It's a learning experience.
I'd be more concerned about why another player flies off the handle on a play that doesn't concern him. Storming out of the casino was over the top and not normal. Mistakes were made, the decision was wrong but move on.
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Leaving a casino is rarely a mistake for recreational players. You're talking about a multi-billion dollar company that feels the need to partially free roll someone who doesn't even understand a game for $35; how much lower does it have to get before a player witnessing that is justified in leaving?
Anyway, it remains my position that the casino straight up free rolled on this person, both for trips and the main bets. In UTH, folding isn't technically a pre-flop option. Any dealer (assuming the dealer didn't make an honest mistake and mix the game up with MS, or something) or supervisor, with something that could be mistaken for a conscience, would inform the player that they could actually flop into a straight (if the hand was 3-7) or quads and that folding presents no advantage at all.
In Blackjack, a player refusing to take an action would stand, unless Surrender is available, in which case I'd interpret, 'Fold' as, 'Surrender' in your example, which is actually the correct play anyway if Surrender is available.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 17th, 2023 at 8:04:52 AM
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Quote: billryanWhat happens online if a BJ player refuses to act after two cards?
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It probably depends on the casino, but my inclination would be to believe it defaults to the player stands. That would make sense to me, anyway, because the hand can be resolved (as the dealer's actions are fixed) without input from the player.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 17th, 2023 at 8:20:34 AM
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You stand even if your total is 4. If you are playing speed BJ, this is 10 to 12 seconds after the dealer finishes dealing the round. For ordinary BJ, the timer starts when the action gets to you. For speed BJ, the timer starts as soon as any player at the table can act.Quote: billryanWhat happens online if a BJ player refuses to act after two cards?
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I might be timed out and forced to stand even before the player location check decides that I did not instantly leave the boundaries of my state and then come back home.
DraftKings is even worse. In some circumstances, I have tried to split aces and the game decided I wanted to stand. This apparently only happens in speed BJ when you play multiple hands out of order. But, it has happened to me twice even though I carefully clicked the split button each time.
Gambling is a math contest where the score is tracked in dollars. Try not to get a negative score.
November 17th, 2023 at 9:31:12 AM
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Quote: mapzNo, even if a player has 2-3
And board is AAA56
Player would want to fold on river, but would still win the “trips bet”
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I think I see your point now. I just came from the Rampart (in LV) casino and asked about this. They said a Play bet is required for the Trips bet to have action. I did not previously know this, but thought it always had action. The analysis on my site of that bet assumes it always plays.
I asked the floorman what he would do in the situation a player insisted on folding pre-flop. He said they would put all bets in the rack and put the cards in the muck. They justify taking the Trips bet because the player is refusing to make a Play bet.
To get really off-topic, a friend of mine is a long-time craps dealer. He said he saw it happen that a player died with some active bets on the table that eventually won. He said the casino held the money aside somehow for an heir to claim. I asked if anyone ever did ask for the money, but he didn't know.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 17th, 2023 at 9:49:48 AM
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No, at my casino, even if you fold, the dealer keeps your two cards in front of you if you have a Trip's wager. To check to see if you get paid on the Trips.
Indeed, according to these official rules I've found:
/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
(I think this URL is blocked, but if you google "ultimate texas holdem rules" it is second result, from California state website)
Page 6, paragraph 9:
"If the player receives a three of a kind or higher, the Trips bonus payouts are made
regardless of whether the hand wins, loses, or pushes. (NOTE: If the player has a
three of a kind or better, the Trips wager always wins – even if the player folds.)"
There are not many cases where it makes sense to fold when you do have trips, but they certainly exist, like my example earlier, you hold 2-3 and the board is AAA 56 ,,,, You cannot beat the dealer, but you fold and still collect on your trips wager
Indeed, according to these official rules I've found:
/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/BGC_ult_texas.pdf
(I think this URL is blocked, but if you google "ultimate texas holdem rules" it is second result, from California state website)
Page 6, paragraph 9:
"If the player receives a three of a kind or higher, the Trips bonus payouts are made
regardless of whether the hand wins, loses, or pushes. (NOTE: If the player has a
three of a kind or better, the Trips wager always wins – even if the player folds.)"
There are not many cases where it makes sense to fold when you do have trips, but they certainly exist, like my example earlier, you hold 2-3 and the board is AAA 56 ,,,, You cannot beat the dealer, but you fold and still collect on your trips wager
November 17th, 2023 at 10:09:43 AM
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Quote: WizardQuote: mapzNo, even if a player has 2-3
And board is AAA56
Player would want to fold on river, but would still win the “trips bet”
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I think I see your point now. I just came from the Rampart (in LV) casino and asked about this. They said a Play bet is required for the Trips bet to have action. I did not previously know this, but thought it always had action. The analysis on my site of that bet assumes it always plays.
I asked the floorman what he would do in the situation a player insisted on folding pre-flop. He said they would put all bets in the rack and put the cards in the muck. They justify taking the Trips bet because the player is refusing to make a Play bet.
To get really off-topic, a friend of mine is a long-time craps dealer. He said he saw it happen that a player died with some active bets on the table that eventually won. He said the casino held the money aside somehow for an heir to claim. I asked if anyone ever did ask for the money, but he didn't know.
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They are wrong. If there are trips on the board, the hand can be folded and the trips bet still wins. There could also be a flush on the board, the player doesn't want to risk $100 or $200 to play thinking the dealer might have a higher suit than the board. Player still wins trips flush.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 17th, 2023 at 11:03:37 AM
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I was picturing that 'removed' bets meant 'returned' to player, so I misunderstood ... how silly of me to think that! But removing the bets just means allowing him to fold after all.Quote: WizardQuote: odiousgambitAfter looking at his cards? wow, wouldn't that be the player free-rolling the house?
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Yes, after looking at his cards. I do not see how this is free-rolling the house. I might remind you that the Trips bet remains active even if the player folds after the River.
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the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
November 17th, 2023 at 11:22:44 AM
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Quote: Zcore13Quote: Wizard
I think I see your point now. I just came from the Rampart (in LV) casino and asked about this. They said a Play bet is required for the Trips bet to have action. I did not previously know this, but thought it always had action. The analysis on my site of that bet assumes it always plays.
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They are wrong. If there are trips on the board, the hand can be folded and the trips bet still wins. There could also be a flush on the board, the player doesn't want to risk $100 or $200 to play thinking the dealer might have a higher suit than the board. Player still wins trips flush.
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Wow, it seems like Rampart is being really player-unfriendly here. It's a rare situation when this would happen but I saw it happen recently at Park MGM and the dealer did what Wizard mentioned earlier. The cards were tucked under the trips bet to be checked when the dealer went through the end of the hand procedures. It's similar to what they do at the same casino for a separate jackpot bet (I think 6 card royal or something...)
November 17th, 2023 at 12:04:28 PM
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According to the State of Washington posted rules, the player should have action on the Trips bet even if he folds.
Source: https://wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/Ultimate%20Texas%20Hold%20%27Em%20-%20Cover%20All.pdf (see page 5).
Quote: Washington Gambling CommissionNote: If the player has three of a kind or better, he always wins the trips bet, even if he folds.
Source: https://wsgc.wa.gov/sites/default/files/public/activities/GameRules/game-rules/Ultimate%20Texas%20Hold%20%27Em%20-%20Cover%20All.pdf (see page 5).
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 17th, 2023 at 3:14:32 PM
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Here is a post I made a while ago about being forced to make a play bet to get paid on the trips bet.
Quote: mipletThis happened to me while playing a casino in Washington. One week they would pay the Trips without making the Play bet, and the next the made you make the Play bet. I brought in a copy of http://www.wsgc.wa.gov/docs/game_rules/ultimate_texas_hold_em.pdf with me the next time I went there, which states "Note: If the player has three of a kind or better, the Trips bet always wins—even if the player folds". I also sent an email to the gambling commission. I haven't had any problems folding since then.
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“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
November 18th, 2023 at 9:00:37 PM
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on msc cruises and maybe others you must play the hand out to get paid on trips also trips min is table min not just $5
November 18th, 2023 at 9:22:49 PM
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Quote: JoeTheDragonon msc cruises and maybe others you must play the hand out to get paid on trips also trips min is table min not just $5
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Cruises are generally the worst paying slots and table game paytables anywhere. Terrible.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 19th, 2023 at 9:38:22 PM
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I discussed this once with the late Dan Lubin. He said that ShuffleMaster started acquiescing to the house rule that you have to call to get paid on the trips in order to get more installs. Unfortunately it appears to be becoming more and more common.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
- AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
November 20th, 2023 at 5:48:01 AM
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I just did some rough calculations on the cost of the rule of mandating a Play bet for the Trips to have action. I figure it's mostly likely to take effect, perhaps the only time, is with a three of a kind on the board. Next, the player's low card would need to be 9 or 10 or less, depending on whether the three of a kind were lower or higher than the player's low card. If it's a low three of a kind, there are more ways for the dealer to outkick the player.
Bottom line is rough "21 outs" calculations show the probability of 0.000672718 of such a situation. A three of a kind pays 3 to 1 on the Trips bet, for a swing of 4 units when this situation does occur. That probability times 4 is 0.002690873. Of course, the player might make a marginally bad small raise to save the Trips, but I'm not going to muddy the waters with that.
Increase in house edge of 0.27% is nothing to sneeze at. A player fighting for 0.27% is not likely to make the Trips bet in the first place, but for those who who do, it's worth asking about before making the Trips bet.
Bottom line is rough "21 outs" calculations show the probability of 0.000672718 of such a situation. A three of a kind pays 3 to 1 on the Trips bet, for a swing of 4 units when this situation does occur. That probability times 4 is 0.002690873. Of course, the player might make a marginally bad small raise to save the Trips, but I'm not going to muddy the waters with that.
Increase in house edge of 0.27% is nothing to sneeze at. A player fighting for 0.27% is not likely to make the Trips bet in the first place, but for those who who do, it's worth asking about before making the Trips bet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 20th, 2023 at 7:42:10 AM
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After writing the post above, I thought that the way most players play, the ratio of their Trips bet to Ante bet would be large enough to make a bad small raise to save the Trips bet as opposed to fold and lose a winning Trips bet.
Doing some rough calculations, I figure the cost of never folding with Trips on the board is about 0.11% of the Ante bet.
Where I'm at now is the cost is the lesser of 0.11% of the Ante bet and 0.27% of the Trips bet.
Doing some rough calculations, I figure the cost of never folding with Trips on the board is about 0.11% of the Ante bet.
Where I'm at now is the cost is the lesser of 0.11% of the Ante bet and 0.27% of the Trips bet.
Last edited by: Wizard on Nov 20, 2023
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 20th, 2023 at 9:13:56 AM
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My latest strategy is to have a Trips bet equal to 2/3rds of my Ante bet. So playing $15 on Ante, $15 on Blind, $10 on Trips and up to $60 on Play makes a total bet of up to $100 if I'm starting out with a pair in the hole.
My local casino franchise tables have a $25K max aggregate payout so that'd be $45 on my Ante, $45 on Blind, $30 on Trips and up to $180 on Play makes a total bet of $300. A Royal Flush could pay up to $24,225. ($45 x 500 = $22,500 + $45 + $180 + $30 x 50 = $1,500)
My local casino has a $50K max aggregate payout so that'd be $90 on my Ante, $90 on Blind, $60 on Trips and up to $360 on Play makes a total bet of $600. A Royal Flush could pay up to $48,450.
I think only Trips win if the Community Cards are a Royal Flush.
https://wizardofodds.com/play/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
I had a hand where there were two pair and an Ace kicker on the board and I had a 2,4 in the hole and the prompt told me not to fold. So a Push was nearly foregone if I called. But I lost the trips bet anyway.
My local casino franchise tables have a $25K max aggregate payout so that'd be $45 on my Ante, $45 on Blind, $30 on Trips and up to $180 on Play makes a total bet of $300. A Royal Flush could pay up to $24,225. ($45 x 500 = $22,500 + $45 + $180 + $30 x 50 = $1,500)
My local casino has a $50K max aggregate payout so that'd be $90 on my Ante, $90 on Blind, $60 on Trips and up to $360 on Play makes a total bet of $600. A Royal Flush could pay up to $48,450.
I think only Trips win if the Community Cards are a Royal Flush.
https://wizardofodds.com/play/ultimate-texas-hold-em/
I had a hand where there were two pair and an Ace kicker on the board and I had a 2,4 in the hole and the prompt told me not to fold. So a Push was nearly foregone if I called. But I lost the trips bet anyway.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Nov 20, 2023
November 20th, 2023 at 4:08:38 PM
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You call the floor over and have him explain to the player "Your options are bet 3x/4x, or check." You don't take "a shot" at a customer that's trying out a new game (good for the casino) and probably playing it very very poorly since they don't even know how to play (again - good for the casino). Casino/Staff are morons, news at 5.Quote: WizardQuote: DeucekiesThe official rules of Ultimate Texas Holdem say a player's options preflop are to check or to bet 3x or 4x. Folding is not an option preflop or on the flop. Folding can only be done on the river.
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I know that, but what is supposed to happen if the player refuses to take either action?
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Playing it correctly means you've already won.
November 20th, 2023 at 4:15:47 PM
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Quote: RomesYou call the floor over and have him explain to the player "Your options are bet 3x/4x, or check." You don't take "a shot" at a customer that's trying out a new game (good for the casino) and probably playing it very very poorly since they don't even know how to play (again - good for the casino). Casino/Staff are morons, news at 5.Quote: WizardQuote: DeucekiesThe official rules of Ultimate Texas Holdem say a player's options preflop are to check or to bet 3x or 4x. Folding is not an option preflop or on the flop. Folding can only be done on the river.
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I know that, but what is supposed to happen if the player refuses to take either action?
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75% of people are morons. Some just happen to work at casinos. I've got stories of complete idiots in every industry I've worked and most places I have frequented.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
November 21st, 2023 at 12:27:52 AM
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I don't disagree with your 75%, but 99.9% of casino pit bosses and up are morons, in my experience.Quote: Zcore13
75% of people are morons. Some just happen to work at casinos. I've got stories of complete idiots in every industry I've worked and most places I have frequented.
ZCore13
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Playing it correctly means you've already won.
November 21st, 2023 at 3:13:28 AM
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Quote: RomesI don't disagree with your 75%, but 99.9% of casino pit bosses and up are morons, in my experience.Quote: Zcore13
75% of people are morons. Some just happen to work at casinos. I've got stories of complete idiots in every industry I've worked and most places I have frequented.
ZCore13
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There’s some selection bias in there.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
November 21st, 2023 at 6:05:43 AM
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Quote: WizardI just did some rough calculations on the cost of the rule of mandating a Play bet for the Trips to have action. I figure it's mostly likely to take effect, perhaps the only time, is with a three of a kind on the board. Next, the player's low card would need to be 9 or 10 or less, depending on whether the three of a kind were lower or higher than the player's low card. If it's a low three of a kind, there are more ways for the dealer to outkick the player.
Bottom line is rough "21 outs" calculations show the probability of 0.000672718 of such a situation. A three of a kind pays 3 to 1 on the Trips bet, for a swing of 4 units when this situation does occur. That probability times 4 is 0.002690873. Of course, the player might make a marginally bad small raise to save the Trips, but I'm not going to muddy the waters with that.
Increase in house edge of 0.27% is nothing to sneeze at. A player fighting for 0.27% is not likely to make the Trips bet in the first place, but for those who who do, it's worth asking about before making the Trips bet.
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I appreciate the analysis, but it’s difficult to imagine that anyone making the Trips bet in the first place is putting that much thought into it; the better strategy remains to just never make the Trips bet to begin with.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
November 21st, 2023 at 7:27:16 AM
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I like to get paid on a losing flush.
I just got quads and the $20 Trips bet paid $600 while the $30 Blind bet paid $300.
Only my $30 Trips bet won on this board straight. All the other bets pushed, even the Blind bet pushed.
On another hand there was Trips on the board but I had 6,4 so I folded and I won the Trips bet.
I did it again with a 6,10 on a $30 Trips bet. I lost my $45 Ante & $45 Blind bet so overall it was a push.
I just got quads and the $20 Trips bet paid $600 while the $30 Blind bet paid $300.
Only my $30 Trips bet won on this board straight. All the other bets pushed, even the Blind bet pushed.
On another hand there was Trips on the board but I had 6,4 so I folded and I won the Trips bet.
I did it again with a 6,10 on a $30 Trips bet. I lost my $45 Ante & $45 Blind bet so overall it was a push.
Last edited by: ChumpChange on Nov 21, 2023
November 21st, 2023 at 7:50:02 AM
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Quote: Mission146I appreciate the analysis, but it’s difficult to imagine that anyone making the Trips bet in the first place is putting that much thought into it; the better strategy remains to just never make the Trips bet to begin with.
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I agree, but it is my duty to analyze everything, even terrible bets.
You could take your argument to an extreme and say never make any negative bet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
November 21st, 2023 at 12:57:54 PM
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they let you fold and not set the hand in faceup pigow. And you can do that if you know you can't win or push.
