How big a bankroll?

I played some craps on my last trip, but I didn't really understand the game. Since then I've been playing craps on the computer, including the free game at Bodog, Foxwoods, Harrah's and others. I'm confident now I understand the game.

My question is, on a $5 minnimum table, assuming pass/don't pass bets of $5 with up to 10x odds along with one or two come/don't come bets with up to 10x odds, how big a bankroll do I need? I'm thinking of $300.

I'd say at least double that for the pass line and up to $1000 on the don't, assuming you're going to be laying odds that will pay off up to 10x on the don't side.

A $300 bankroll gets wiped out after six straight pass-line losers if you're taking full odds. That's not rare, not at all. I generally buy in for enough coverage of at least 10 points at 10x odds on the don't side -- realizing that I won't lay 10x odds every time.

Quote: Nareed

I played some craps on my last trip, but I didn't really understand the game. Since then I've been playing craps on the computer, including the free game at Bodog, Foxwoods, Harrah's and others. I'm confident now I understand the game.

My question is, on a $5 minnimum table, assuming pass/don't pass bets of $5 with up to 10x odds along with one or two come/don't come bets with up to 10x odds, how big a bankroll do I need? I'm thinking of $300.

you have a pretty high risk of getting wiped out, sounds to me like, with $300. 10X odds added to $5 means a $55 bet, lose two in a row and you are already down to less that $200 left. I like to figure a minimum of 10 times that, or $600 let's say, to have anything like a good cushion, and that for just a reasonable session since you *could* easily enough lose that before you got your gaming fix.

Bodog, for example, allows a chicken-s**t 2X odds on Craps I believe. What are they afraid of? I guess it's the signing bonus. Free odds is a powerful thing they give us but you have to be able to survive some losing steaks. If you are uncomfortable with taking more than $300 then don't take max odds is my advice. It does not help you win more money! after, say, 10,000 plays your bankroll will be durn close to the same amount as if you had never taken any odds at all.

Your bankroll for this game should depend on what you're trying to accomplish. Obviously, you should never take more than you're willing to lose, so that should be your first consideration. Assuming that's not an issue, you're next concern is how long you want to play.

When I play craps I typically make $5 Pass Line and 2 $5 Come bets with 3x4x5x odds. I've lost $500 in well under 30 minutes. If you establish a point and get 2 Come bets out, all with odds, and then hit a 7--you've lost about $100 in a matter of 4 rolls of the dice. With 10x odds, you will have lost over $150. This is not uncommon.

Only you can answer your question because it is about what you're willing to lose. If you only take $300, be mentally prepared that you may only play 10-15 minutes if you get unlucky.

I disagree with the statement that after 10,000 rolls taking or not taking odds will even out.

From an EV perspective, they don't matter in the first place--so they won't affect your average win/loss over 10,000 rolls (or 10 rolls for that matter).

But taking odds will have a huge impact on your variance, even over 10,000 rolls. And variance is what gives you a chance to win--even in the moderately long run like 10,000 trials. Maybe I would agree that after 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 trials, odds are a wash, but even the most hardcore gamblers will never reach a million rolls in their life.

If your going to gamble, get your money in on bets that have the lowest house edge. The odds bet in craps has a zero house edge.

Quote: Nareed

My question is, on a $5 minnimum table, assuming pass/don't pass bets of $5 with up to 10x odds along with one or two come/don't come bets with up to 10x odds, how big a bankroll do I need? I'm thinking of $300.

There are some who would say that it would be better to not be quite so determined to be a Right Bettor. Starting out on the PassLine is fine, staying there might not be what you want to do. So if you consider shifting to the Wrong Side bets then you will need a markedly heavier bankroll.

Bankroll is usually expressed at a 90 percent level of avoidance of Risk of Ruin. That is, the bankroll you would need to be only running a ten percent risk that your playing would totally exhaust your bankroll. The bankroll is dependent upon how fast the game is played, your betting strategy and your desired Time At Table.

For a Four Hour session making only ONE PassLine Bet with 2x odds, you would need 40 units to survive 4 hours of play at a ten percent Risk of Ruin. Given such considerations as distractions, dealer errors, player errors, cocktail waitress interruptions, etc. this effectively means that a 5 dollar PassLine bet with 2x odds requires a three hundred dollar bankroll at a "moderately-slow" table such as might be found in a locals casino or a Downtown casino. At the faster-paced Strip casinos, a craps table might not even allow a five dollar bet. At the ultra-fast pace of some craps tables in Sweat The Money joints and Day-Cruise gambling boats, the bankroll requirements skyrocket.

The making of the two come bets and the fuller use of higher odds obviously increases the Bankroll requirements severely.

Thanks for all the promnpt replies.

Quote: dk

Your bankroll for this game should depend on what you're trying to accomplish. Obviously, you should never take more than you're willing to lose, so that should be your first consideration. Assuming that's not an issue, you're next concern is how long you want to play.

Absolutely. I see gambling as a diversion and bets as the price. The object is to enjoy the game, win or lose. Obviously I'd enjoy it more if I win, but I don't go in thinking I'm going to break the bank and retire to the Bahamas. I'm perfectly happy to spend a couple of hours betting five cents per hand of VP and losing $20

Anyway, from the answers I'm seeing I should 1) find a lower limit table (if possible) and 2) play lower odds.

I've heard Casino Royale has $3 minnimums from time to time, and I'm sure I saw a $3 table at either Circus Circus or Slots-a-Fun. I'll have to look them up.

Next question, can anyone recommend a casino with $5 or lower tables for playing craps? Last time I played at IP for a few throws only (to get the feel of the game). Too noisy and the tables are in a high transit area. I dind't really scope out the others, but the Stratosphere and Bally's looked ok.

Quote: Nareed

Next question, can anyone recommend a casino with $5 or lower tables for playing craps? Last time I played at IP for a few throws only (to get the feel of the game). Too noisy and the tables are in a high transit area. I dind't really scope out the others, but the Stratosphere and Bally's looked ok.

You already mentioned it, but I'd recommend Casino Royale. When I've been there, they've had $3 minimums.

Quote: dk

You already mentioned it, but I'd recommend Casino Royale. When I've been there, they've had $3 minimums.

Warning! I understand the signage is deceptive. If you make those three dollar flat bets, then you are not eligible for the 100x odds which require 5 dollar bets or something. This information is "third hand" though ... so a rather large grain of salt may be indicated.

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: dk

You already mentioned it, but I'd recommend Casino Royale. When I've been there, they've had $3 minimums.

Warning! I understand the signage is deceptive. If you make those three dollar flat bets, then you are not eligible for the 100x odds which require 5 dollar bets or something. This information is "third hand" though ... so a rather large grain of salt may be indicated.

Also, I don't think the 100x is open 24/7. When it is quieter they only have a 20x table open.

For low minima and high odds, try downtown (especially Main Street Station) and locals casinos off the Strip. Lots of $1/10x tables in Henderson.

Quote: FleaStiff

There are some who would say that it would be better to not be quite so determined to be a Right Bettor. Starting out on the PassLine is fine, staying there might not be what you want to do. So if you consider shifting to the Wrong Side bets then you will need a markedly heavier bankroll.

Playing computer simulations I usually bet don't pass and don't come. I know the house edge is similar for both pass and don't pass, though slightly in the player's favor betting wrong, but I always feel there are much btter odds for a seven than for a point.

Naturally there are also better odds for a seven than for a 2 or 3 (or 12 or 3, depending on the rules) that makes the wrong bettor lose on the come out roll.

I try to play both ways, but if I forget I'm playing right I go to don't pass every turn. So I'm comfortable playing wrong as far as knowing what I'm doing is concerned. As far as the players on the table, not so much.

So what's markedly heavier? twice as much?

Quote: dk

I disagree with the statement that after 10,000 rolls taking or not taking odds will even out.

From an EV perspective, they don't matter in the first place--... But taking odds will have a huge impact on your variance, even over 10,000 rolls. ... Maybe I would agree that after 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 trials....

Really? 10,000 flips of a coin would be expected to have little variance [on the scale of "huge impact"] from 5,000 heads/5,000 tails, right? And I am focusing on "huge impact" vis a vis "durn close to the same amount" which is the choice of language between us [I did not say they even out near perfectly] Something about the odds being 2 to one, 3 to 2, and 6 to 5 instead of 50-50?

Notice I am not saying your wrong, just surprised, but someone should be able to crunch the numbers. I am quite interested in knowing and regret the math escapes me.

Anyway my point is that the EV does not change, and that ultimately tipping, errors, and the seemingly less important losses on the pass or don't pass bets are all that matter [isolating those kinds of bets for this discussion]. But "ultimately" takes millions of trials? wow

Quote: FleaStiff

Warning! I understand the signage is deceptive. If you make those three dollar flat bets, then you are not eligible for the 100x odds which require 5 dollar bets or something. This information is "third hand" though ... so a rather large grain of salt may be indicated.

That is fact. I made a $3 Pass Line bet planning to take 100x odds. When I tried, I was told they only allowed that on $5 bets, so I took 20x odds. Still 20x at $3 ($63) is risking about the same as 10x at $5 ($55) and has a lower house edge. If I recall the placard at the table actually stated the policy, I just didn't see it at first.

I haven't been there when they didn't have 100x odds, but I've only been 3 times, so that's not much of a sample size.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: dk

I disagree with the statement that after 10,000 rolls taking or not taking odds will even out.

From an EV perspective, they don't matter in the first place--... But taking odds will have a huge impact on your variance, even over 10,000 rolls. ... Maybe I would agree that after 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 trials....

Really? 10,000 flips of a coin would be expected to have little variance [on the scale of "huge impact"] from 5,000 heads/5,000 tails, right? And I am focusing on "huge impact" vis a vis "durn close to the same amount" which is the choice of language between us [I did not say they even out near perfectly] Something about the odds being 2 to one, 3 to 2, and 6 to 5 instead of 50-50?

Notice I am not saying your wrong, just surprised, but someone should be able to crunch the numbers. I am quite interested in knowing and regret the math escapes me.

Anyway my point is that the EV does not change, and that ultimately tipping, errors, and the seemingly less important losses on the pass or don't pass bets are all that matter [isolating those kinds of bets for this discussion]. But "ultimately" takes millions of trials? wow

Ok, I just ran 20 simulations of 10,000 rolls each with 2 different betting systems (but using the same rolls for each). One system took 3x4x5x odds; the other took no odds. Both used 1 unit bets. Granted, 20 is a miniscule sample size, but here are the results I got:

Strategy	3x4x5x Odds	Pass Line Only
Average	13.1	-29.3
Maximum	609	89
Minimum	-512	-169

Please don't take this to mean that I think you will have a higher EV by taking odds. Just that after 10,000 rolls, the numbers don't tend to the mean.

Also, with a higher variance you have a better chance of being ahead. This best way to visualize this is to think of a game with zero variance. Consider a game that costs $303 to play and returns $300 every time. The "house edge" is less than 1%, but you come out ahead 0% of the time. I like to call this game "Going to the ATM to Withdraw Money".

Quote: dk

... I just ran 20 simulations of 10,000 rolls each...

your results clearly *do* suggest that by taking the odds, for most of us non-professional gamblers, luck over a lifetime is going to be likely quite good or quite bad at the crap table!

All I ask is to walk out a winner once in a while. Usually the other expenses like the room tend to exceed considerably my gambling losses.

Bankroll is indeed a function of the Risk of Ruin and your comfort of having a probability of meeting said ruin. The probability of Ruin is based on the variance of the table and as the odds go higher the variance does too.

Most tables in Vegas will be 3-4-5 odds (House advantage 0.374%) . Casino Royale is the exception but I don't particularly like the atmosphere of that craps table. First, the craps bowl and layout are huge (14 foot tables) and the folks and crew there are not to the same "par" as the strip casinos. And indeed the $3 bet is only 20x odds (about 0.08%). Casino Royale does offer the best craps anywhere and it is fairly close to the center of the strip between Harrahs and the Venetian. I always make a point to stop there but play most of my craps and other games where I can enjoy it. And if you play Craps, you might as well play some BlackJack switch there too with a house advantage of 0.16%.

For a pass line better and someone betting 2 comes with max odds on a 3-4-5 table I think you should be banking about 30x your bet + odds, so if you are betting $25, look at $750 for your bankroll. Even that that pattern of betting, there's a chance that you'll leave empty handed.

And go to your favorite casino where you get good comps, are treated well, and like the people and the crews.

Quote: boymimbo

And go to your favorite casino where you get good comps, are treated well, and like the people and the crews.

Agreed. This is the best way to maximize your fun, and really that's the point. For atmosphere, I actually like the Golden Gate's craps best.

As regards the pace of the game, I suppose the time of day has much to do with it, even at a sweat-the-money place.

I'm two hours ahead of vegas and I frequently wake up before 7 am when I'm there. Usually I go for breakfast, then I take a walk as the day is relatively mild at that time. I've noticed the casinos are half dead at such times, with most tables closed and the others empty or with one or two players. Would 9-10 am be a good time to play pace-wise?

It's too early for drinks, of course, but I don't drink alcohol when I gamble. So that's not an issue. I prefer to keep a clear head when spending money.

Quote: Nareed

As regards the pace of the game, I suppose the time of day has much to do with it, even at a sweat-the-money place.

Would 9-10 am be a good time to play pace-wise?

It's too early for drinks, of course, but I don't drink alcohol when I gamble.

First of all, it's never too early for drinks in Vegas (unless you have to drive somewhere). :)

Second, I don't like playing craps when the tables are empty as they usually are at the time you're suggesting. If you're looking to fire off 100+ rolls per hour, this would be the time to go. For me, I'd prefer a slower pace because you can play longer with the same risk of ruin/expected loss. Plus I love the comraderie of other players. There's nothing better than sharing a HOT table with a large group of strangers--cheering and high fiving with people you've never met.

Quote: dk

First of all, it's never too early for drinks in Vegas (unless you have to drive somewhere). :)

Oh, I know the only thing it may be too early to do in Vegas is switch on the lights or fire up the outdoor shows ;)

Quote: dk

Second, I don't like playing craps when the tables are empty as they usually are at the time you're suggesting. If you're looking to fire off 100+ rolls per hour, this would be the time to go. For me, I'd prefer a slower pace because you can play longer with the same risk of ruin/expected loss.

I figure if I play alone I can set up my own pace. But perhaps you're right and I should wait for three or four players before trying out the tables.

Still, I travel alone (I am single) and am used to being alone much of the time.

Quote: Nareed

I figure if I play alone I can set up my own pace.

I can just see you standing there at the table, dice in hand, staring down the 4 crew members as you wait 2 minutes to shoot because you want to play at your own pace. That's ballsy. I like it.

Quote: dk

I can just see you standing there at the table, dice in hand, staring down the 4 crew members as you wait 2 minutes to shoot because you want to play at your own pace. That's ballsy. I like it.

Not at all. What else are they going to do? If they hurry me up I pick up my chips and leave, and I assume they know it. It's a buyer's market that early in the morning. Sure, a single player won't leave much of a tip, compared to a full table, but it's till better than no tip.

That's assuming any craps tables are opened that early.

Quote: Nareed

Quote: dk

I can just see you standing there at the table, dice in hand, staring down the 4 crew members as you wait 2 minutes to shoot because you want to play at your own pace. That's ballsy. I like it.

Not at all. What else are they going to do? If they hurry me up I pick up my chips and leave, and I assume they know it. It's a buyer's market that early in the morning. Sure, a single player won't leave much of a tip, compared to a full table, but it's till better than no tip.

That's assuming any craps tables are opened that early.

What's the fun of playing craps alone? Waiting 2 minutes to roll the dice is no fun. While the HA will wear you down over time (.374% HA on 3-4-5 odds, 1.52% on the 6-8), the things I like about craps is the .374% HA on a 3-4-5 odds table and the 1.52% on the 6-8, the superstitions and the camaraderie at the table. The more players at the tables, the more fun and interesting the game becomes.

Hi A great question and I will throw in my 2 cents.

I gamble a lot and I play only two games craps and roulette(red/black or odd/even only)The only reason for taking odds in craps is to reduce the house take which is honestly pretty small anyway at the craps table. If you could get just straight odds all of the time the win lose probablilty would would be 50% over the long haul. My view of odds is that it depends if you are betting right or wrong as to whether or not you should consider odds as a big benefit. Remember that once you move to the point rolls the odds factor all depends if you are betting right or wrong

If you are playing right your probablitly of winning at the start of the point rolls is 40% assuming a normal distribution of 4 5 6 8 9 10's Odds make great sense here because the 50% they yeild helps water down the 40% you are faced with.

If you are playing wrong the probabilty of winning is 60% at the start of the point rolls again assuming a normal distribution of 4 5 6 8 9 10's. In this case taking odds is watering down your 60% win probabilty. Over time taking odds doesnt make sense to me if playing wrong.

It's very difficult to not increase your bet when a 4 or 10 pops up when playing wrong. It seems counter intuitive not to bet more when the pobablity has reached 66% in your favor. Of course you are paying for that 66% by betting $10 to win $5 and over time all you will do is water down your overall 60% probabilty of winning. I am not saying I never do it (although I shouldn't)Sometimes if I seem to be getting behind I do sometimes take a shot at the 4 or 10 and increase the win probality to 75% by counterbetting 2/2 or 5/5 at roughly 8/1 odds.

As far as what size roll you need---the answer is plenty! Your bank roll gives you protection against the kind of streaks we hate(losing streaks. We love the winning streaks of course but they are just as deviant as the losing steaks. If I am betting $10 per game I usually have a minimum of $2500 available to cover the bad streaks. I wouldn't walk up to a table with less than $500 if playing for $5.

Speaking of steaks--As I said I play roulette sometimes and once saw black come up 9 times in a row---talk about a streak lol.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: dk

I disagree with the statement that after 10,000 rolls taking or not taking odds will even out.

From an EV perspective, they don't matter in the first place--... But taking odds will have a huge impact on your variance, even over 10,000 rolls. ... Maybe I would agree that after 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000 trials....

Really? 10,000 flips of a coin would be expected to have little variance [on the scale of "huge impact"] from 5,000 heads/5,000 tails, right? And I am focusing on "huge impact" vis a vis "durn close to the same amount" which is the choice of language between us [I did not say they even out near perfectly] Something about the odds being 2 to one, 3 to 2, and 6 to 5 instead of 50-50?

Notice I am not saying your wrong, just surprised, but someone should be able to crunch the numbers. I am quite interested in knowing and regret the math escapes me.

I've attempted to "crunch the numbers" for this. I posted it in the math section of the forum as a new thread. Take a look if you're interested.

Quote: zippedup

It's very difficult to not increase your bet when a 4 or 10 pops up when playing wrong. It seems counter intuitive not to bet more when the pobablity has reached 66% in your favor. Of course you are paying for that 66% by betting $10 to win $5 and over time all you will do is water down your overall 60% probabilty of winning.

I don't quite understand this. If I bet $5 on don't pass, then lay $10 in odds, then I'd get $25 if I win, or pay the casino $15 if I lose. Right so far? Otherwise I bet $5 on don't pass, take home $10 if I win and pay $5 if I lose.

Ok, I wouldn't lay odds on every point. 6 and 8 have a 5 in 36 chance of turning up, which isn't that far off rom the 6 in 36 chance for a 7. Ten and 4 have only a 3 in 26 chance each, which is far removed from seven's chances. 5 and 9, well, I'm not sure, In the sims sometimes I lay odds on them, sometimes not. Largely it depends on how much virtual money I have left (I bet more when I have more).

Naturally if I lay odds in every 4 and 10 I won't win every time, but odds are I'd win more often than I'd lose (I hope!) from that perspective it's worth laying odds playing wrong.

Oh, wait. I have to win twice as often as I lose. Got it.

Quote: Nareed

My question is, on a $5 minnimum table, assuming pass/don't pass bets of $5 with up to 10x odds along with one or two come/don't come bets with up to 10x odds, how big a bankroll do I need?
I'm thinking of $300.

Late to reply, but I had some fun with this. And I was surprised at the results.

Bankroll is 60 units (300/5)
1/3 of the time you will have from 1 to 3 $5 bets working.
The remaining time between $55 and $165 working.

Of course many will and did laugh at the idea of making such large bets with a relativly small bankroll.
I like to laugh, too.

So I ran a simulation, $300 starting bankroll, pass and max 2 come bets with 10X odds.
No data on the number of rolls, some were quite long, maybe on another sim.
Every one played until busted or went past $50,000 profit.
Yes, many busted out quickly.

But here are some interesting bankroll stats.

Say you would quit when up at least $1 or bust trying.
12.56% busted very quickly not even winning $1.
87.44% won at least $1.



$1 not enough to quit while ahead??
OK, I agree. We gots $300 to blow here!

How about play until win $100 or bust


should we keep going???
OK
How about play until win $300 or bust (double our bankroll)


Wow!
Surprised!! I am!
(This can actually be calculated using a Gambler's Ruin formula.
No simulation required.
But that will be for another thread later.)

How much higher can we go??


Sally