Poll

 Yes 3 votes (23.07%) No 6 votes (46.15%) Maybe 3 votes (23.07%) Total eclipse reminder 4-8-2024 2 votes (15.38%) Mattea Roach 2 votes (15.38%) Is this countable? 5 votes (38.46%) Shut up Wiz! 2 votes (15.38%) My wife makes terrible apologies. 2 votes (15.38%) Schrödinger's cat is dead 2 votes (15.38%) I'm a sock puppet. 1 vote (7.69%)

13 members have voted

Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 26336
August 19th, 2022 at 10:04:34 AM permalink
My latest video from the 2022 Table Game Protection and Table Games Conference is 21 Stud.

This game is blackjack with NO decision making. Your initial two cards are all you get.

1. Ace-Ace counts as a blackjack
2. Player wins blackjack ties
3. Dealer wins all other ties

I found the game creator, Brandon Zyxnfryx, to be quite delightful.

The question for the poll is would you play 21 Stud? (multiple votes allowed)
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
August 19th, 2022 at 12:11:17 PM permalink
Using an infinite deck approximation, I calculate the House Edge of 21 Stud to be 0.068170977, or 6.817%. I did assume that the BJ (A-A) payout was 1.5 when dealer also has a blackjack.

BTW, is Brandon Zyxnfryx related to Mr. Mxyzptlk?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 26336
August 19th, 2022 at 12:30:48 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Using an infinite deck approximation, I calculate the House Edge of 21 Stud to be 0.068170977, or 6.817%. I did assume that the BJ (A-A) payout was 1.5 when dealer also has a blackjack.

Here is a summary of my infinite-deck analysis.

Event Pays Probability Return
Player BJ win 1.5 0.050418 0.075628
Dealer BJ win -1 0.050418 -0.050418
BJ tie 1.5 0.002836 0.004254
Other win 1 0.413781 0.413781
Other Loss -1 0.413781 -0.413781
Other tie -1 0.068765 -0.068765
Total 1.000000 -0.039302

Quote:

BTW, is Brandon Zyxnfryx related to Mr. Mxyzptlk?

Good question, but I didn't ask.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
August 19th, 2022 at 1:05:00 PM permalink
Oh, I had assumed that A-K was not a blackjack (and thus paid 1-1 and lost to Dealer A-A) because A-A was defined to be a blackjack.

Making that correction, my calculation is now HE = 0.03937541 or -3.9375% However, my calculation is actually a 6-deck calculation in which the dealer hand probabilities are insensitive to the two cards in the players hand.

So, I repeated this calculation based on a 600 deck shoe and I get a House Edge of -0.03930257, which is close enough to confirm your infinite deck result.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
• Posts: 3804
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August 19th, 2022 at 1:53:16 PM permalink
Nice game. I would trial it. I'd probably want to find a way to reduce the house edge a tiny bit, but not as low as BJ because you can't misplay hands.

Solid game and play. Easy to learn. Not intimidating for women or new players in general because their play does not affect others. Nice side bet paytable with a possibility to add a progressive for either both cards matchimg or 4 card poker hands.

Well done.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Cosmiccow
Joined: Aug 18, 2022
• Posts: 4
August 19th, 2022 at 2:27:05 PM permalink
Event Pays Probability Return
Player BJ win 1.5 0.050418 0.075628
Dealer BJ win -1 0.050418 -0.050418
BJ tie 1.5 0.002836 0.004254
Other win 1 0.413781 0.413781
Other Loss -1 0.413781 -0.413781
Other tie -1 0.068765 -0.068765
Total 1.000000 -0.039302

This game looks incredibly countable
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
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August 19th, 2022 at 5:26:07 PM permalink
Welcome to the forum, cosmiccow. Its always a good idea for newcomers to take a look at the rules: Forum Rules We look forward to getting to know you!

I think the question of countability is To Be Determined. Yes, a high frequency of getting BJs is in the player's favor, so Aces and (to a lesser extent) Tens should have a positive EOR. But I suspect that excess Tens may also increase the probability of player and dealer tieing on non-BJ hands, and that is where the dealer's advantage comes from. I would normally calculate EORs for the ranks, but I'm about to be very busy for a week, so I imagine some others will do it. This is an easy game to analyze.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
ChumpChange

Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4670
August 19th, 2022 at 6:06:02 PM permalink
Most of my profit in BJ comes from Double Downs, Splits, and Black Jacks. Maybe I cut my losses a bit with surrender too.
Where's the bright points of winning in this game?
SphinxOfCups
Joined: Sep 2, 2021
• Posts: 44
Thanks for this post from:
August 19th, 2022 at 10:06:11 PM permalink
Quote: ChumpChange

Most of my profit in BJ comes from Double Downs, Splits, and Black Jacks. Maybe I cut my losses a bit with surrender too.
Where's the bright points of winning in this game?

That's kind of where I'm at. The lack of player decision makes it approachable, but not enjoyable. I got a chance to play this at the show and I found the side bets to not be engaging enough to make up for no strategy.

It has a place on the casino floor, but it's not something I'd want to play.
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
• Posts: 3804
August 19th, 2022 at 10:30:52 PM permalink
Quote: SphinxOfCups

It has a place on the casino floor, but it's not something I'd want to play.

Edited. Replied to wrong post in this one. Deleted.

ZCore13
Last edited by: Zcore13 on Aug 19, 2022
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
SphinxOfCups
Joined: Sep 2, 2021
• Posts: 44
August 19th, 2022 at 10:33:32 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Under the current gameplay and payouts, it has no place on a floor.

ZCore13

It has a place on the casino floor, but it's not something I'd want to play.

And yet you'd give it a trial? Confusing. You even said "solid game and play." Would you like to elaborate on your genuine thoughts, cause otherwise the discussion is going to be really hard to follow.

I agree, I don't think it does. But others certainly seem to, given it placed 2nd in the competition. And I'll concede to the masses' experience. May just not be a game for me.
ChumpChange

Joined: Jun 15, 2018
• Posts: 4670
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August 19th, 2022 at 10:52:49 PM permalink
Nobody needs that kind of HA from a purported BJ game variant. Not even the 6:5 players, but there's too many bettors out there who don't know the difference and it seems like this game was made for greedy casino executives to stiff the customers. Once it catches on, there will be no stopping it, lol.
Zcore13
Joined: Nov 30, 2009
• Posts: 3804
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August 19th, 2022 at 11:18:12 PM permalink
Quote: SphinxOfCups

Quote: Zcore13

Under the current gameplay and payouts, it has no place on a floor.

ZCore13

It has a place on the casino floor, but it's not something I'd want to play.

And yet you'd give it a trial? Confusing. You even said "solid game and play." Would you like to elaborate on your genuine thoughts, cause otherwise the discussion is going to be really hard to follow.

I agree, I don't think it does. But others certainly seem to, given it placed 2nd in the competition. And I'll concede to the masses' experience. May just not be a game for me.

Saying this game was not ready for casino floors was a mistake. I thought I was posting in the Rule Out game thread.

This game is ready. And adding a Progressive would be even better.

Sorry about the confusion. Totally my fault.

ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Cosmiccow
Joined: Aug 18, 2022
• Posts: 4
Thanks for this post from:
August 20th, 2022 at 9:47:25 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Welcome to the forum, cosmiccow. Its always a good idea for newcomers to take a look at the rules: Forum Rules We look forward to getting to know you!

I think the question of countability is To Be Determined. Yes, a high frequency of getting BJs is in the player's favor, so Aces and (to a lesser extent) Tens should have a positive EOR. But I suspect that excess Tens may also increase the probability of player and dealer tieing on non-BJ hands, and that is where the dealer's advantage comes from. I would normally calculate EORs for the ranks, but I'm about to be very busy for a week, so I imagine some others will do it. This is an easy game to analyze.

Yes I would love to see someone do the math on this for counting. This game has a pretty high house advantage compared to typical BJ(with decent rules) and counting only gives you a marginal edge (typically 1-2%, which is less than the house advantage here). You are definitely correct as well about how in BJ when the counts get high your chances of a tie go up due to the ratio of 10s left in the deck and in this game you lose with a tie unfortunately, interestingly enough if you tie with a BJ you win the full 1.5 payout though! Maybe a system that weights A's higher would be better or the side bets are more countable than the main game with the match the dealer or player bets.

As a side note this game really seems like if BJ and baccarat had a baby!
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2946
August 21st, 2022 at 8:25:16 AM permalink
It looks as if the things to count are the Aces as the removal of one has quite an effect!

I think adding Aces (c.f. Californian BJ) would make the game very interesting. Single Deck HE=-3.547 450%, add 4 extra Aces HE=-0.022598. Six decks HE would go to -0.155 953%.

EOR - remove one card from the shoe
10=T,J,Q,K.
 Removal of House Edge None -3.862 263% Ace -4.013 610% 2 -3.864 401% 3 -3.854 131% 4 -3.848 833% 5 -3.844 589% 6 -3.841 852% 7 -3.839 969% 8 -3.839 391% 9 -3.834 520% 10 -3.857 031% Addition of Aces 1 Ace -3.710 621% 2 Aces -3.558 690% 3 Aces -3.406 477% 4 Aces -3.253 988%
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
• Posts: 26336
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November 8th, 2022 at 2:51:10 PM permalink
Please have a look at my new WoO page on 21 Stud.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Suited89
Joined: Dec 23, 2019
• Posts: 134
November 11th, 2022 at 4:48:54 PM permalink

If Doubling on Hard 11 is permitted, would this be too much? AP?

Suited89
some people need to reimagine their thinking
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
November 11th, 2022 at 8:07:46 PM permalink
I agree. This is a boring no-fun game with a house advantage that is unattractively high.

What's next?

High Card Hijinx
The dealer and player each get dealt one card. There are no decisions.
- Highest card wins. A>K>Q>J>10
- A win by player with an ace pays 1.5.
- A Tie is considered a win for the dealer and a loss for player.

Big whoop. I just invented an ugly boring game with a high HA similar to 21 Stud. But it can be dealt quickly and is easy to explain.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2946
November 12th, 2022 at 12:32:38 AM permalink
^ How fun!! Just make Ace a guaranteed winner paying 6/4 and the House Edge isn't that bad!! One deck 1.13% Infinite deck 2.66%
Interestingly your rules with winning Ace paying 2/1 (but tie losing) would be 0.59% infinite deck and only goes into the Player's advantage with 3 decks or fewer.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
November 12th, 2022 at 5:34:10 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

^ How fun!! Just make Ace a guaranteed winner paying 6/4 and the House Edge isn't that bad!! One deck 1.13% Infinite deck 2.66%
Interestingly your rules with winning Ace paying 2/1 (but tie losing) would be 0.59% infinite deck and only goes into the Player's advantage with 3 decks or fewer.

Yeah, I conceived of this game as a satire on 21 Stud. When I did the odds in my head, I didn't have exact numbers but I was surprised how similar the HA was to 21 Stud. Your variations are interesting and make sense, but at its core this is a game with no decisions and I imagine it wouldn't be much fun.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
November 12th, 2022 at 5:34:14 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

^ How fun!! Just make Ace a guaranteed winner paying 6/4 and the House Edge isn't that bad!! One deck 1.13% Infinite deck 2.66%
Interestingly your rules with winning Ace paying 2/1 (but tie losing) would be 0.59% infinite deck and only goes into the Player's advantage with 3 decks or fewer.

Yeah, I conceived of this game as a satire on 21 Stud. When I did the odds in my head, I didn't have exact numbers but I was surprised how similar the HA was to 21 Stud. Your variations are interesting and make sense, but at its core this is a game with no decisions and I imagine it wouldn't be much fun.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Hunterhill
Joined: Aug 1, 2011
• Posts: 2144
November 12th, 2022 at 7:07:32 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: charliepatrick

^ How fun!! Just make Ace a guaranteed winner paying 6/4 and the House Edge isn't that bad!! One deck 1.13% Infinite deck 2.66%
Interestingly your rules with winning Ace paying 2/1 (but tie losing) would be 0.59% infinite deck and only goes into the Player's advantage with 3 decks or fewer.

Yeah, I conceived of this game as a satire on 21 Stud. When I did the odds in my head, I didn't have exact numbers but I was surprised how similar the HA was to 21 Stud. Your variations are interesting and make sense, but at its core this is a game with no decisions and I imagine it wouldn't be much fun.

Gordon your game idea is almost like casino war.
Basically big card wins
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
21STUD
Joined: Nov 9, 2022
• Posts: 4
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:00:42 AM permalink
> BTW, is Brandon Zyxnfryx related to Mr. Mxyzptlk?

I have been asked this many times :)
It is pronounced "Zizzen fricks" and I have been called many things....

Just don't say it backwards, @gordonm888
;)

And thank you for taking an interest in 21STUD!
21STUD
Joined: Nov 9, 2022
• Posts: 4
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:09:01 AM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

Nice game. I would trial it. I'd probably want to find a way to reduce the house edge a tiny bit, but not as low as BJ because you can't misplay hands.

Solid game and play. Easy to learn. Not intimidating for women or new players in general because their play does not affect others. Nice side bet paytable with a possibility to add a progressive for either both cards matchimg or 4 card poker hands.

Well done.

ZCore13

@ZCore13 I am flattered by your positive reception of the game.
As the creator, my goal is to provide a frictionless "21' experience for women, new players, or action junkies that prefer Bonuses.

I'm looking at a California installation this January at the Eagle Mountain Casino, with an active footprint in the NH Gaming market.
The opinions of the game are polarized (love or hate) but the majority of people that have taken a chance to play for real money.

I can send you more performance data, and we can discuss further!

4 card progressive opportunities have also been discussed with Galaxy Gaming, specifically their Monster Match PJP product.
Obviously, any 4-card evaluation would work, giving this a "full meal" experience for the consumer.

Thank you again to the Wizard for making this information available to everyone.
I believe the Casino Patron is entitled to the choice of "hit' or "no hit" versions of 21 games. My two cents~

As far as hands per hour, you can deal a full table under 1 minute.
That's 24 bet resolutions assuming all spots are played!
21STUD
Joined: Nov 9, 2022
• Posts: 4
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:20:47 AM permalink
Hey @ChumpChange!

When playing 21STUD, you will enjoy being paid Blackjack on ANY combination of 21 or 22 (Aces).
In terms of Bonus Bets, when a Player is playing all positions, you are hoping to be dealt a pair of Suited Aces for a payout of 40 to 1 (30 to 1, if Spanish rules)

During a typical game, the Player will naturally gravitate towards all 4 betting positions.
At which point the game becomes "please deal me a suited pair" for a 25x minimum payout, with the potential of the dealer flipping another match for either 1 or possibly 2 repeat pays at 18 to 1.

Generally speaking, I've found that most Players are very accepting of the "No Push" rule.
This works because there is also "No Bust".

I appreciate you taking an interest. Cheers!
-bz
21STUD
Joined: Nov 9, 2022
• Posts: 4
November 22nd, 2022 at 11:33:52 AM permalink
Hey @SphinxOfCups -

I can appreciate that a lack of player-decision may be a turn-off for the more experienced gambler.
Totally get it.

Given this, I believe 21STUD is a best fit for those markets where Casino War thrives, as the game offers similar gameplay with an increase bet velocity overall.
It may also do well in the touristy areas because this is as an "easy game".

Generally speaking, I think the average casino goer is recreational by nature.
Recreational meaning - once or twice a year.

Does anyone know what the industry average is?
By comparison, I go to a theme-park once or twice a year, whereas a casino is more like twice a month for me.

I imagine going to the casino is once or twice a year for the majority of folks.
So in that sense, I'd argue 21STUD is more for them.
Just a few talking points to consider. Nice discussion here!
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 4964
November 22nd, 2022 at 2:19:17 PM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: charliepatrick

^ How fun!! Just make Ace a guaranteed winner paying 6/4 and the House Edge isn't that bad!! One deck 1.13% Infinite deck 2.66%
Interestingly your rules with winning Ace paying 2/1 (but tie losing) would be 0.59% infinite deck and only goes into the Player's advantage with 3 decks or fewer.

Yeah, I conceived of this game as a satire on 21 Stud. When I did the odds in my head, I didn't have exact numbers but I was surprised how similar the HA was to 21 Stud. Your variations are interesting and make sense, but at its core this is a game with no decisions and I imagine it wouldn't be much fun.

Gordon your game idea is almost like casino war.
Basically big card wins