PAI GOW TILES
February 14th, 2022 at 7:02:59 AM
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6 PLAYERS with perfect collusion strategy, possible to get +ve EV ?
I would like to know the perfect collusion strategy so that I can try to simulate it.
Where can I find the perfect collusion strategy ?
I would like to know the perfect collusion strategy so that I can try to simulate it.
Where can I find the perfect collusion strategy ?
February 14th, 2022 at 7:54:40 AM
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Definitely a positive EV collusion strategy exists. I have seen teams in action, I don't understand what they're doing though. Anecdotally, I heard in the range of an 8% edge. Unconfirmed.Quote: ssho886 PLAYERS with perfect collusion strategy, possible to get +ve EV ?
I would like to know the perfect collusion strategy so that I can try to simulate it.
Where can I find the perfect collusion strategy ?
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February 14th, 2022 at 11:39:02 AM
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Even with six players colluding there are still two hands that are unknown; the dealer's hand and the dead hand.
February 14th, 2022 at 2:08:55 PM
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Quote: TigerWuEven with six players colluding there are still two hands that are unknown; the dealer's hand and the dead hand.
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Knowledge that the dealer cannot have a teen or day is huge.
Knowledge that the dealer has a much higher than normal chance to have a teen or day is also helpful.
8% sounds a bit high, but I’d be very surprised if knowing 24 of the tiles (leaving 4/8 for the dealer) does not result in a player edge.
February 14th, 2022 at 2:38:47 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: TigerWuEven with six players colluding there are still two hands that are unknown; the dealer's hand and the dead hand.
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Knowledge that the dealer cannot have a teen or day is huge.
Knowledge that the dealer has a much higher than normal chance to have a teen or day is also helpful.
8% sounds a bit high, but I’d be very surprised if knowing 24 of the tiles (leaving 4/8 for the dealer) does not result in a player edge.
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But what can you do with that knowledge? The bets have already been made. There's only three ways to set each hand. If you know the dealer has a good chance of having a teen or a day, what can you do but set your hand the best way possible, which is something you would most likely be doing anyway?
If this strategy was at all viable, you would think some Asian team somewhere would have capitalized on it already.
February 14th, 2022 at 2:40:26 PM
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I think you could gain an advantage with perfect knowledge of all tiles out. 8% does sound high though.
Edit - I just said the same exact thing as Soopoo. Sorry about that. Didn’t read all the replies close enough.
Edit - I just said the same exact thing as Soopoo. Sorry about that. Didn’t read all the replies close enough.
February 14th, 2022 at 4:45:04 PM
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Quote: TigerWuQuote: SOOPOOQuote: TigerWuEven with six players colluding there are still two hands that are unknown; the dealer's hand and the dead hand.
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Knowledge that the dealer cannot have a teen or day is huge.
Knowledge that the dealer has a much higher than normal chance to have a teen or day is also helpful.
8% sounds a bit high, but I’d be very surprised if knowing 24 of the tiles (leaving 4/8 for the dealer) does not result in a player edge.
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But what can you do with that knowledge? The bets have already been made. There's only three ways to set each hand. If you know the dealer has a good chance of having a teen or a day, what can you do but set your hand the best way possible, which is something you would most likely be doing anyway?
If this strategy was at all viable, you would think some Asian team somewhere would have capitalized on it already.
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Unlike the dealer you can choose a less optimal setting for your hand. You would do this if you knew the most likely setting of the dealer.
This might help losses turn into pushes.
Also, knowledge of what tiles the dealer probably has means knowledge of how the dealer must set their hand. You could again choose a setting for your hand to counter the dealer's hand which must be set house way.
If you can minimize losses and maximize wins on a very low house edge game it might make a difference.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2022 at 8:42:45 PM
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Quote: TigerWuQuote: SOOPOOQuote: TigerWuEven with six players colluding there are still two hands that are unknown; the dealer's hand and the dead hand.
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Knowledge that the dealer cannot have a teen or day is huge.
Knowledge that the dealer has a much higher than normal chance to have a teen or day is also helpful.
8% sounds a bit high, but I’d be very surprised if knowing 24 of the tiles (leaving 4/8 for the dealer) does not result in a player edge.
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But what can you do with that knowledge? The bets have already been made. There's only three ways to set each hand. If you know the dealer has a good chance of having a teen or a day, what can you do but set your hand the best way possible, which is something you would most likely be doing anyway?
If this strategy was at all viable, you would think some Asian team somewhere would have capitalized on it already.
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To give you a simple example, which I have used numerous times, if I have a choice of gong/3 versus 9/4, and I KNOW the dealer can’t have a teen or day you of course don’t even think and play 9/4. If you KNOW there are no teens or days left you will play the 11 with the high 8 to make a high 9 total on occasions where you would normally not. There are a bunch more subtle examples which can be used as well.
I am not sure it has NOT been taken advantage of. I’ve been at tables as the only native English speaker where I was asked repeatedly about my tile composition. I’ve also played at ‘loose’ tables where many players were clearly showing their tiles to the entire table while cursing!
Bottom line, knowing other tiles helps the player if he knows what to do with the information. Does it help enough to overcome the house edge? That is above my pay grade.
February 15th, 2022 at 4:14:42 AM
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Quote: teliotDefinitely a positive EV collusion strategy exists. I have seen teams in action, I don't understand what they're doing though. Anecdotally, I heard in the range of an 8% edge. Unconfirmed.
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8% seems high to me too, even with optimal strategy. I've played with teams that invariably seemed to speak in Mandarin, Cantonese, or Vietnamese. When they speak in Mandarin, I can make out the numbers they are saying. Also, it seems I had an unspoken contract with these team to show them my tiles in return for their advice. Based on all the information I gathered, I think they were mainly counting the teen and day tiles.
This would certainly be a noble project to study collusion in tiles. However, weighing the pros and cons, I can't justify spending the time on it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 15th, 2022 at 5:21:22 AM
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Agreed, asians mainly counting the teen and day tiles . . .I am looking for optimum collusion strategy.
February 15th, 2022 at 6:04:48 AM
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Quote: ssho88Agreed, asians mainly counting the teen and day tiles . . .I am looking for optimum collusion strategy.
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WOO has a calculator that you can enter your tiles and the known tiles. It will give you the optimal strategy for the specific house way it is programmed for. There may be tiny adjustments if the house ways at your casino are different.
February 15th, 2022 at 6:10:05 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOQuote: ssho88Agreed, asians mainly counting the teen and day tiles . . .I am looking for optimum collusion strategy.
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WOO has a calculator that you can enter your tiles and the known tiles. It will give you the optimal strategy for the specific house way it is programmed for. There may be tiny adjustments if the house ways at your casino are different.
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I would like to know the strategy so that I can write it into a simulation program to check the average ev/round.
If it worth 8%, a 6 players team may able to get 0.08 x 6 = 0.48 unit per round !
February 15th, 2022 at 6:47:24 AM
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Quote: ssho88Quote: SOOPOOQuote: ssho88Agreed, asians mainly counting the teen and day tiles . . .I am looking for optimum collusion strategy.
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WOO has a calculator that you can enter your tiles and the known tiles. It will give you the optimal strategy for the specific house way it is programmed for. There may be tiny adjustments if the house ways at your casino are different.
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I would like to know the strategy so that I can write it into a simulation program to check the average ev/round.
If it worth 8%, a 6 players team may able to get 0.08 x 6 = 0.48 unit per round !
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It is not worth 8%. Doubtful it is worth more than 1%. I’ve played for hours on end at tables where I had lots of this extra info. The number of times you make a play against what you would do without the knowledge is very small. And remember, you may just be changing a 53% win on a given hand to a 55% win. And in practicality, you won’t have all 24 tiles out available and ready to put in the WoO calculator.
I LOVE the rare hand that I play against ‘basic strategy’ due to the info. It’s just not that common.
February 15th, 2022 at 7:48:10 AM
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Quote: SOOPOOIt is not worth 8%. Doubtful it is worth more than 1%.
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I agree. If it were worth even 1%, more people would be doing it.
Our own JB, who made my pai gow calculator, might be motivated to work on this if he were paid enough money.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
February 15th, 2022 at 8:02:42 AM
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Wouldn't you just need to calculate the extreme examples? I.e., assume the best eight tiles are in the dealer's hand and dead hand, then assume the eight worst tiles are in those hands... then for the remaining six hands, calculate for the six best possible hands and then the six worst possible hands with the remaining 26 tiles... wouldn't that give you an accurate enough spread for house edge for perfect collusion?
February 15th, 2022 at 8:03:01 AM
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Just curious, Mike, if you have ever witnessed a team in action. I have. It is something to behold ... they set their tiles, communicate somehow, then some re-set their tiles. It's lightning quick.Quote: WizardQuote: SOOPOOIt is not worth 8%. Doubtful it is worth more than 1%.
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I agree. If it were worth even 1%, more people would be doing it.
Our own JB, who made my pai gow calculator, might be motivated to work on this if he were paid enough money.
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It's not just the top tiles they care about. The choice between high-low and mid-mid is the difference between going for a win on the top value hand and a win on the bottom value hand.
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February 15th, 2022 at 8:46:12 AM
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I have played in London where they openly communicate the Teens and Days (and they asked me about mine as well). On occasions they would also ask about the 9s and 8s. So I'm guessing these are the key things to know.
I suspect the only way to analyse this would be to run simulations and work out the possible dealer hands (and player's ways to play) given the tiles you know about. In essence you just work through the last N in the deck to work out the possible dealer hands - I've done this for a 3-card poker based game I was thinking of. (I know that others have looked at this idea for various card games and shown some game are beatable and others aren't.)
I suspect the only way to analyse this would be to run simulations and work out the possible dealer hands (and player's ways to play) given the tiles you know about. In essence you just work through the last N in the deck to work out the possible dealer hands - I've done this for a 3-card poker based game I was thinking of. (I know that others have looked at this idea for various card games and shown some game are beatable and others aren't.)
February 15th, 2022 at 10:18:47 AM
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Quote: teliotJust curious, Mike, if you have ever witnessed a team in action. I have. It is something to behold ... they set their tiles, communicate somehow, then some re-set their tiles. It's lightning quick.
It's not just the top tiles they care about. The choice between high-low and mid-mid is the difference between going for a win on the top value hand and a win on the bottom value hand.
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Yes, I have. I agree with your description of it. Seems to me some don't even look at their tiles but feel the dots.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
