Shufflemaster

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Anyway, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the old "beast mode" arguments.
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To me this beast mode term was introduced to obfuscate the actual problem. This has to do with how the patent systems work. They have the abilities to produce certain products. They have the abilities to potentially stop people from producing products that are being sold that contain the patented technology. The only thing stopping them from doing specific things related to the patents are jurisdictional laws which specifically state that the functionalities of their technologies are illegal. If something is not defined as illegal it can’t be produced, otherwise if it’s not illegal or even if it is legally defined - they can produce it and its a literal win win in my opinion.
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I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

• someone has to design the modification
• someone has to effect the modification
• someone has to allow the modification
• anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it

All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: heatmap

Quote: Dieter

Anyway, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the old "beast mode" arguments.
link to original post

To me this beast mode term was introduced to obfuscate the actual problem. This has to do with how the patent systems work. They have the abilities to produce certain products. They have the abilities to potentially stop people from producing products that are being sold that contain the patented technology. The only thing stopping them from doing specific things related to the patents are jurisdictional laws which specifically state that the functionalities of their technologies are illegal. If something is not defined as illegal it can’t be produced, otherwise if it’s not illegal or even if it is legally defined - they can produce it and its a literal win win in my opinion.
link to original post

I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

• someone has to design the modification
• someone has to effect the modification
• someone has to allow the modification
• anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it

All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
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To me the best evidence that casinos don’t employee cheating crash shufflers is that switching to 6:5 is so much cheaper and easier.

Is it possible some sweaty downtown joint installed a cheating shuffler at one table known to get hit by card counters for the sole purpose of [Expletive redacted] with the card counters? Maybe. I dunno.

Quote: Dieter

I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

• someone has to design the modification
• someone has to effect the modification
• someone has to allow the modification
• anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it

All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
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Not in Russia. Not in parts of Asia. Not in South America,
Just look at the tactics/methods designed by Russians to beat slot machines.

And in the US all it takes is someone competent at programming and incompetent at making other choices in life.

I think it is important for players to keep their eyes wide open, and to keep thinking and asking questions.

Quote: gordonm888

Quote: Dieter

I doubt it is illegal to build a card cheating device.
It probably is illegal for a casino to employ such a device if it has not been verified as fair by GLI or a similar approved agency.
Admittedly, they only certify that as built, the device operates fairly.
A device could be later modified to cheat, but:

• someone has to design the modification
• someone has to effect the modification
• someone has to allow the modification
• anyone who might encounter a modification has to ignore it

All of that cheating costs money. I have a feeling that the costs outweigh the benefits.
link to original post

Not in Russia. Not in parts of Asia. Not in South America,
Just look at the tactics/methods designed by Russians to beat slot machines.

And in the US all it takes is someone competent at programming and incompetent at making other choices in life.

I think it is important for players to keep their eyes wide open, and to keep thinking and asking questions.
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Fair points. I am assuming the US regulated market.

i willl always go back to this quote from GLIs website - it never really changes and hasnt in a while and today it is still there.

https://gaminglabs.com/gli-standards/

Quote:

GLI’s business is to test, review and report on gaming devices and systems against the standards established by relevant gaming jurisdictions worldwide.

Each jurisdiction has the authority to set their own standards; however, many use our standards as a starting point in developing their regulations.

and IMO - if the specific jurisdiction's laws do not specifically say that "cheating is defined as" and includes verbiage that is specific to the shufflers or whatever cheating actually is - AND HAVE IT BE APPILIED TO THE CASINOS SPECIFICALLY - then i will never change my mind about how I feel.

this quote to me is the only thing you need to know before you start developing any game and once you understand that GLI - seemingly - checks the laws of the jurisdiction that you are developing the game for - and if the laws do not say that your particular game is illegal in any way - then they may pass it. You dont have to follow the standards if its not illegal to do those things in your jurisdiction IMO.

Quote: Marcusclark66

Personally I do not know of any players introducing cards into a live baccarat game. I searched through security bulletins within the industry for the past 20 years that our brand subscribes to. None. The only thing close of any substantial meaning is the infamous Tran Gang we all know about.

There are a select few insignificant collusion’s between regionalized local players and select dealers, but those are all about paying when the players lost the hand or paying larger amounts that were bet, etc. Most all of those I found were in the Midwest and the East Coast.

Why would there be many cases of player cheating when according to reported results here by you and 'others', baccarat seems to be a game that can be beaten almost at will?

Quote: kewlj

Quote: Marcusclark66

Personally I do not know of any players introducing cards into a live baccarat game. I searched through security bulletins within the industry for the past 20 years that our brand subscribes to. None. The only thing close of any substantial meaning is the infamous Tran Gang we all know about.

There are a select few insignificant collusion’s between regionalized local players and select dealers, but those are all about paying when the players lost the hand or paying larger amounts that were bet, etc. Most all of those I found were in the Midwest and the East Coast.

Why would there be many cases of player cheating when according to reported results here by you and 'others', baccarat seems to be a game that can be beaten almost at will?
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You are very clear (IMO) with your innuendos.

I will not answer as there is no need to. I state facts, both on the casinos side as well as myself being a live table player with the game.

8 years ago, I was playing a cash game at Mountaineer Casino in Wheeling WV. That night, they had what they called "Quad Night" where you would get a raffle ticket any time you hit quads and they had a drawing every hour. When I saw that, I thought to myself, that's going to be a pretty lame raffle, since I could only remember hitting quads maybe 3 or 4 times in the 2 tears I had been playing... That night, I hit quads 5 times in 3 hours... And at least 10 to 15 people were yelling "Quads" every hour that night at the 7 table poker room.... I've been skeptical ever since...

Already a few years ago, I myself see shuffle machines "Shufflemaster", unlegal modified so that you can control the deck and combinations.

We were offered to buy them, but we refused. If desired, this can be implemented, the technology is not so complicated for our time

Quote: Neisj

8 years ago, I was playing a cash game at Mountaineer Casino in Wheeling WV. That night, they had what they called "Quad Night" where you would get a raffle ticket any time you hit quads and they had a drawing every hour. When I saw that, I thought to myself, that's going to be a pretty lame raffle, since I could only remember hitting quads maybe 3 or 4 times in the 2 tears I had been playing... That night, I hit quads 5 times in 3 hours... And at least 10 to 15 people were yelling "Quads" every hour that night at the 7 table poker room.... I've been skeptical ever since...
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Observation bias. You don't remember the many nights that there aren't as many Quads.

Quote: Dobrij

Already a few years ago, I myself see shuffle machines "Shufflemaster", unlegal modified so that you can control the deck and combinations.

We were offered to buy them, but we refused. If desired, this can be implemented, the technology is not so complicated for our time
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A casino has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using a modified shuffler. They already have the edge over the average joe and the the tools, everything from flat betting to backoffs and bans, to deal with the players that go for advantage plays.

Quote: AitchTheLetter

Quote: Dobrij

Already a few years ago, I myself see shuffle machines "Shufflemaster", unlegal modified so that you can control the deck and combinations.

We were offered to buy them, but we refused. If desired, this can be implemented, the technology is not so complicated for our time
link to original post

A casino has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using a modified shuffler. They already have the edge over the average joe and the the tools, everything from flat betting to backoffs and bans, to deal with the players that go for advantage plays.
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Casino advocates always say that, but the circumstances you describe do not necessarily always apply to South America, to Russia and parts of Europe or to Asia and Africa. The person making the comment is from Europe.

And there are a handful of proven cases where US casinos have been caught cheating gamblers. This happens for all sorts of reasons. The incentives of the casinos to not cheat are the same reasons why defense contractors have no motivation to bribe, why husbands have no reason to cheat on their wives and why rich people have no motivation to screw over the poor.

Quote: AitchTheLetter

Quote: Dobrij

Already a few years ago, I myself see shuffle machines "Shufflemaster", unlegal modified so that you can control the deck and combinations.

We were offered to buy them, but we refused. If desired, this can be implemented, the technology is not so complicated for our time
link to original post

A casino has nothing to gain and everything to lose by using a modified shuffler. They already have the edge over the average joe and the the tools, everything from flat betting to backoffs and bans, to deal with the players that go for advantage plays.
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one of these days im going to pinpoint the exact location where statements like this were first made