Baccarat players get rebates

I just got a call from my Host at one of the Vegas casinos. The call was in response to my email about why certain players were showing up at craps games with promo chips? If there was a promotion I wanted in on it.

Well, I was told that at several Vegas casinos Baccarat players get promo chips for other games when they have a loss of $10k or more.

So I asked, why only Baccarat? Why are Baccarat players -- who have some of the lowest house edges in a casino -- getting loss rebates but there aren't at other table games including craps, carnival games and even blackjack?

The Host couldn't answer my question about Baccarat players only but promised to check and get me an answer.

The host rattled off a list where the Baccarat rebates are available.

What I've found with the comps such as promo chips, Visa gift cards, promo "dollars," online shopping sprees, is that they pile up much more due to theoretical loss than actual. My hosts at various properties confirmed what I already discovered.

And in general, given that actual loss is comp'ed at a mere 10% while theo at 35% or even more, you're just not going to get much by losing at casinos compared to playing and winning or breaking even. And that's why the guy who loses five grand at the tables gets a pittance in comps while the guy who breaks even or wins and plays enough hours at a good average gets a lot more.

Quote: MDawg

What I've found with the comps such as promo chips, Visa gift cards, promo "dollars," online shopping sprees, is that they pile up much more due to theoretical loss than actual. My hosts at various properties confirmed what I already discovered.

And in general, given that actual loss is comp'ed at a mere 10% while theo at 35% or even more, you're just not going to get much by losing at casinos compared to playing and winning or breaking even. And that's why the guy who loses five grand at the tables gets a pittance in comps while the guy who breaks even or wins and plays enough hours at a good average gets a lot more.
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Then why dont craps players get the rebates? Their theoretical losses are higher.

I don't play craps, but I do get comps including at times promo chips for my blackjack play.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: MDawg

What I've found with the comps such as promo chips, Visa gift cards, promo "dollars," online shopping sprees, is that they pile up much more due to theoretical loss than actual. My hosts at various properties confirmed what I already discovered.

And in general, given that actual loss is comp'ed at a mere 10% while theo at 35% or even more, you're just not going to get much by losing at casinos compared to playing and winning or breaking even. And that's why the guy who loses five grand at the tables gets a pittance in comps while the guy who breaks even or wins and plays enough hours at a good average gets a lot more.
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Then why dont craps players get the rebates? Their theoretical losses are higher.
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I don't think he knows what he is talking about truthfully.

I think he is confusing Theo loss playthrough with actual loss.

For example let's say for you to achieve a Theo of $1000 you need to do $10,000 coin in.

But due to horrible variance, you lose $1000 quickly with only $2,000 coin in.

Your actual loss is the same as the Theo the casino wants but you didn't achieve the Theo based on variance and a $10,000 coin in requirement.

OTOH, if you had lost $1,000 just as you made $10,000 coin in your comps would have been comparable.

That doesn't mean people who have actual losses get treated worse. Just that the casino is looking at Theo only as their guide.

He's on the right track but missing the forest for the trees IMO.

Like trying to tell the Pope he's not Catholic. You've heard of the Pope. You've heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village. I'm the Pope of Las Vegas.

You play slots. Stick to that.

Actual loss is the same as theo loss? Not usually.

Tables games is where it's at.

In any case, the way comps work is that the host calculates actual loss (10%), and theo loss (at 35% or more), and whichever benefits the player more is what the player gets in comps. It is conceivable that both might come in at the exact same number, but not usually the way it ends up.

Craps players, at least some, got rebates in the past in LV before Ivey got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. They thought he was a degen and a stiff but he played the rebates fast and hard.

Quote: MDawg

Like trying to tell the Pope he's not Catholic. You've heard of the Pope. You've heard of the Pope of Greenwich Village. I'm the Pope of Las Vegas.

You play slots. Stick to that.

Actual loss is the same as theo loss? Not usually.

Tables games is where it's at.

In any case, the way comps work is that the host calculates actual loss (10%), and theo loss (at 35% or more), and whichever benefits the player more is what the player gets in comps. It is conceivable that both might come in at the exact same number, but not usually the way it ends up.
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While it's possible super high rollers may have hosts doing calculations, I am 99.9999% certain hosts don't calculate anything.

It's all driven by software. And the software isn't figuring out what's in the players best interests. It's just doing it's calculation by predetermined algorithms.

The idea that hosts are sitting calculating all of their patrons comps just shows that table games or slots, you aren't understanding the process.

My hosts at Caesars, Bellagio and Red Rock never calculated anything. Comps, promotions, etc came from marketing departments.

The numbers are calculated based on what is input by the pit bosses at the tables.

But all comps are entered manually by hosts, which is where the decision as to whether to go with actual or theo loss comes in, and also the decision on whether to bump up (or in some cases, down), the comps. How many times have you experienced this process? Me, thousands of times, maybe...tens of thousands of times. At the low end, some comps come off the bill automatically, but for the most part, the host has to clean up the bill at the end of the stay, and that is all done manually, line item by line item. Even something as mundane as resort fees don't just comp off automatically at all properties, the host has to clean them off the bill at many properties.

If you'd like to learn more about this, feel free to ask. Otherwise, it seems that you have it all decided upstairs so, why should anyone bother to explain to you how it really works? You're all set and know everything. I'm talking to DarkOz not AlanMendelson.

But I'm the Pope of Las Vegas. Don't forget that, even if you choose not to listen to me.

Alan you're talking about a sub-set of comps: promotions, offers, etc. Many of those are generated automatically. But not all, it takes input or effort from the host to get significant quantities of promo chips, and the decision to issue them depends on what comps the player has already received. If you use up all your available comps on RFB + Spa, you might not get any promo chips at all.

Stay at a casino, and you know that almost all comps of any significance, and even many of little significance, are handled manually by the host. For example, even if you are RFB up front, still the host has to remove spa services manually from the bill.

I doubt too many who are not hosts know how the comp process works better than I.

Quote: MDawg

The numbers are calculated based on what is input by the pit bosses at the tables.

But all comps are entered manually by hosts, which is where the decision as to whether to go with actual or theo loss comes in, and also the decision on whether to bump up (or in some cases, down), the comps. How many times have you experienced this process? Me, thousands of times, maybe...tens of thousands of times. At the low end, some comps come off the bill automatically, but for the most part, the host has to clean up the bill at the end of the stay, and that is all done manually, line item by line item. Even something as mundane as resort fees doesn't just comp off automatically, the host has to clean it off the bill.

If you'd like to learn more about this, feel free to ask. Otherwise, it seems that you have it all decided upstairs so, why should anyone bother to explain to you how it really works? You're all set and know everything. I'm talking to DarkOz not AlanMendelson.

But I'm the Pope of Las Vegas. Don't forget that, even if you choose not to listen to me.
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All comps are entered manually by hosts???

Listen, perhaps some super high roller who stays 176 days straight gambling high Theo might get special attention but the average players who you are giving advice too will never get that.

99.9999% of comps are from marketing departments using algorithms for the entire casinos patrons including table play.

That's just the way it works.

I can't say enough how wrong you are. Actually you're not so much wrong, as skewed in your thinking about "the way it works." I'd go stay at more casinos and experience the range of things that might pop up on your bill, small and large, before you comment further.

Quote: MDawg

I can't say enough how wrong you are. Actually you're not so much wrong, as skewed in your thinking about "the way it works." I'd go stay at more casinos and experience the range of things that might pop up on your bill, small and large, before you comment further.
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I don't waste my time in casino hotels trying to add spa treatments to my Bill.

I am about generation of comps and I can do it to thousands of players cards exactly the same way every time because they go by an algorithm, not calculated manually by a host.

I could do that on table games and I have done so but obviously you risk handing someone else's card to a host when doing that. Slots make for anonymous comp generation.

But it's all done by software. Even the rating by the pit boss is just him entering observed play and letting the algorithms take over.

Perhaps the pit boss will give you a comped dinner afterwards. That's discretionary and not what I consider generation of comps.

If someone thinks all comps are entered manually by hosts then they don't have much experience with how comps work at casinos.

Quote: darkoz

[
But it's all done by software. Even the rating by the pit boss is just him entering observed play and letting the algorithms take over.

Well yeah but it’s probably that rating that the pit boss enters that really matters. Of course they use software to crunch the numbers

But I don’t care about comps. Sure, they could be a nice little perk, but I’m going to stay where I want to stay, dine where I want to dine etc irrespective of comps

Quote: MDawg

Alan you're talking about a sub-set of comps: promotions, offers, etc. Many of those are generated automatically. But not all, it takes input or effort from the host to get significant quantities of promo chips, and the decision to issue them depends on what comps the player has already received. If you use up all your available comps on RFB + Spa, you might not get any promo chips at all.

Stay at a casino, and you know that almost all comps of any significance, and even many of little significance, are handled manually by the host. For example, even if you are RFB up front, still the host has to remove spa services manually from the bill.

I doubt too many who are not hosts know how the comp process works better than I.
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Yeah I get it. There are discretionary comps... like the free dinner or the host who bought a briefcase at Gucci for his client for all the cash they won playing video poker. (The briefcase went home empty because the money was lost later in the same weekend.)

My host had a Caesars jet on standby for me if I was called back to LA when I was waiting for my kidney transplant.

Yeah. That stuff happens.

Let's just say that anything I speak on, gets one hit wonders involved enough to join WOV to make first ever posts (or maybe, first ever today posts under some new identity). 😇 😃 In any case, whoever they are, they simply drive 'em to me!

Alan, anyway, the way comps work, which I am sure you know, is that the figures are calculated based on what the pit bosses enter at the tables. Some sessions the player might lose, some he might win. At the end of the trip there is a figure of what the player's comps would be based on actual loss, and another based on theo loss. The host will generally take the calculation that works out best for the player, to apply to comps.

How much the host needs to work whatever the player charged up during the trip depends on a number of factors. The player might be a new unknown customer who came in at rack rate, and now the player has demonstrated action and earned comps, and in that case, the host must clean up manually everything on the player's bill, because absent host intervention, everything will remain on the bill.

The player might be a player who hasn't played all that hard in the past, or who is known only at another property owned by the casino, and came in on a room comp only. In that case, the host has to review the bill for food and beverage charges, or other charges such as spa, and decide if the play merits comp'ing those off.

And the player might be a player like me, who comes in fully RFB, but even then, by the end of the trip there might be spa charges, or charges to restaurants on property that are not owned by the casino (in those cases the casino must cut actual checks to the restaurants), where the host must, again, clean up the bill if the play merits comp'ing off those above and beyond RFB charges.

And then there are extensions - calling the host to get the stay extended. At that point the host must make a decision about whether to extend on the same or different basis from the comp status the player has received up until that point.

Anyone who has stayed in a casino for even just a weekend knows that everything doesn't automatically come off the bill, and sometimes the player will have to talk to the host, including after checkout, where sometimes a charge made for the last day (breakfast before checking out?) somehow didn't get comp'ed off - was overlooked.

Just stay in a casino any length of time and check your bill on the television screen, or at the front desk/VIP desk - it will be rare that the bill at the end of the stay is the same as what accumulates during the stay - the host always has to clean it up manually at the end, regardless of the player's status coming in. I've had stays where even my TIPS were comp'ed off, which is unusual, and offered only because of extraordinarily heavy play.

And that manual clean up is where discretion often comes into play, such as let's say - a player has lost a lot, say a hundred grand, but her RFB + Spa come to say, thirteen grand, which means that three grand needs to be comp'ed off even though the actual loss of 10% figure doesn't justify it. In such cases almost all hosts will clean up the bill, effectively leaving the player overcomped (for that trip), but over time, these sorts of things tend to balance out for good players.

Anyway, if a casino patron doesn't know the expression "cleaning up the bill" and hasn't ever had to talk to a host at the end of a trip over this or that charge, large or small, to get it handled, that patron hasn't spent much time staying and playing in casinos.

As far as "automated" comps, again, you're talking more about promotions and offers. I recall the first time I was hustled down into casino marketing and assigned a host and I started talking about points and offers and the host cut me off with a "those are for the little players" comment and told me that everything was different once you got to the level that I had just achieved, which wasn't even anywhere near the level I achieved within a year after that. And again, as I said, if a player uses up all his comps with RFB + spa, or anything else, some of those "automated" offers, especially for promo chips, are going to be curtailed.

Just know, that once you get to the level of even just room comps and getting some food comp'ed, let alone full RFB and beyond, it's not an entirely automated process as far as deciding what to do with those numbers that are crunched from your play.

Consider just tournaments for example. I no longer have to play the first round, I am automatically advanced to the second in some cases even the third round. That is not a computer decision, that is made by management. Even entry into tournaments is not automatic - yes, there is a list of qualified entrants the computer spits out but when it comes to discretion, casino marketing / hosts make those decisions. Just by way of another example, I have been in tournaments where there is a requirement to earn x dollars in theo loss or y dollars in actual loss within a few days of the tournament in order to play, and those requirements have been waived for me. (I end up in situations like that when I am playing in multiple tournaments over a weekend at different properties.) Some things are set in stone in the casino business, but there is almost always discretion.

How about nightclubs? Concerts? Who gets which tickets and gets seated where? Yes there are criteria, but the hosts are part of the process in deciding who gets what.

New Year's Eve is coming up. Who gets the biggest and best suites (or any rooms at all) is not simply an automated process, and even if it were, there is always a manual override available.

Few know how to work the comp system better than I. I can pull it down at multiple properties at once and end up with cash in my pocket from every one of them, for concessions, that have nothing to do with win or lose at the tables. I wrote the book on getting as much as possible out of these casinos.

it's nothing special. The casino expects you to lose some amount, they comp you a fraction of that amount. Maybe you win more, maybe you lose more. All gamblers get the same treatment. casinos are good at making you think you're getting some special treatment when you're just getting back a fraction of what you put in. Sometimes you can game the system a bit if you're a new player or back from a hiatus. But everyone gambling on the regular is just getting back a fraction of what they lose. Most of us know that and do it for the entertainment.Others think they're driving the car when they're just being pulled behind it.

One hit wonder, makes two hits!

I get comp'ed based on theo loss, not actual. If I were comp'ed based on actual loss I wouldn't be able to stay in the casino at all, I'd get zilch. But that's besides the point, yes the casino hopes to recoup whatever they comp, but they don't always do that with players like me.

Quote: MDawg

One hit wonder, makes two hits!

I get comp'ed based on theo loss, not actual. If I were comp'ed based on actual loss I wouldn't be able to stay in the casino at all, I'd get zilch. But that's besides the point, yes the casino hopes to recoup whatever they comp, but they don't always do that with players like me.
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There's a lot to digest.

As I stated above super high rollers probably do get treated to some.personal calculation by hosts. As your host put it, automatic calculation is for the little people. So he has you brainwashed now that you are great and someone like myself is "little people" because I only understand the automatic calculation.

I thrive on the automatic calculation because it's better and more profitable. Trust me when I tell you that you are most likely being under-comped.

Your comps value may be more than what I get BUT the comps I receive for the play I give is way above what you get.

Question! Could you live off comps alone? In other words, forgetting the money you claim to win at Casinos, if the only income you had were your comps, could you pay your mortgage and insurance etc?

I can!!! In fact the comps I earn not only support myself but over a dozen employees (some making themselves as high as a hundred thousand a year) and put money into the pockets of a thousand more tertiary team members.

I not only get the comps for the least amount of financial investment but also the least amount of time. On average I can obtain top offers in less than an hour of play.

For you to have gambled for what, seven months to obtain what you have is such a waste of time it boggles my mind that you believe you understand the comps game.

There's more that I won't cover now such as your belief that Theo losses are better for obtaining comps that. Actual losses (not true) but I am certain there are Advantage Players who don't want that understood so I have said enough.

Quote: MDawg

One hit wonder, makes two hits!
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Please don't be rude to the new member. Just because he joined recently, doesn't mean he hasn't passively read previous posts.

I have never seen a pit boss or a pit suit figure any comps for a player. I've only seen them enter the buy in for a player, and then an average bet, and the time played and what was colored up or lost. The figuring is done by a computer.

Hosts look at a computer screen to decide on comps.
They dont figure anything either.

Table supervisors look at a computer screen as well when you ask for a meal comp.

Could you imagine a host calculating comps for their players? They'd never have the time to book reservations.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I have never seen a pit boss or a pit suit figure any comps for a player. I've only seen them enter the buy in for a player, and then an average bet, and the time played and what was colored up or lost. The figuring is done by a computer.

Hosts look at a computer screen to decide on comps.
They dont figure anything either.

Table supervisors look at a computer screen as well when you ask for a meal comp.

Could you imagine a host calculating comps for their players? They'd never have the time to book reservations.
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Not to mention the possibility of fraud. I can easily see a host with that power over-comping friends and relatives.

Quote: darkoz

In fact the comps I earn not only support myself but over a dozen employees (some making themselves as high as a hundred thousand a year)
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I'm retired. How do I apply for one of these jobs?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

In fact the comps I earn not only support myself but over a dozen employees (some making themselves as high as a hundred thousand a year)
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I'm retired. How do I apply for one of these jobs?
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Get. ntroduced by someone I know for a long time, then you spend a few years getting to know me and if I trust you we will start you on the journey to making money

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

In fact the comps I earn not only support myself but over a dozen employees (some making themselves as high as a hundred thousand a year)
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I'm retired. How do I apply for one of these jobs?
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Get. ntroduced by someone I know for a long time, then you spend a few years getting to know me and if I trust you we will start you on the journey to making money
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A few YEARS? I'd like to do this while I'm still able to push buttons.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: darkoz

In fact the comps I earn not only support myself but over a dozen employees (some making themselves as high as a hundred thousand a year)
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I'm retired. How do I apply for one of these jobs?
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Get. ntroduced by someone I know for a long time, then you spend a few years getting to know me and if I trust you we will start you on the journey to making money
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A few YEARS? I'd like to do this while I'm still able to push buttons.
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I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I have never seen a pit boss or a pit suit figure any comps for a player. I've only seen them enter the buy in for a player, and then an average bet, and the time played and what was colored up or lost. The figuring is done by a computer.

Hosts look at a computer screen to decide on comps.
They dont figure anything either.

Table supervisors look at a computer screen as well when you ask for a meal comp.

Could you imagine a host calculating comps for their players? They'd never have the time to book reservations.
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Quote: MDawg

The numbers are calculated based on what is input by the pit bosses at the tables.
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Yes that's what I said. That comps are calculated based on what the pit bosses enter. I didn't mention the minutiae of that pit bosses enter time played and average bet, because that is understood.

Quote: MDawg

Alan, anyway, the way comps work, which I am sure you know, is that the figures are calculated based on what the pit bosses enter at the tables. Some sessions the player might lose, some he might win. At the end of the trip there is a figure of what the player's comps would be based on actual loss, and another based on theo loss. The host will generally take the calculation that works out best for the player, to apply to comps.
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And again, the host is not calculating the amount of the comps - the host is deciding how to apply the comps.

By the way, you're talking about the OLD days as far as a table supervisor's throwing out comp slips. Except at perhaps some of the lower end properties everything is pretty much handled by hosts these days. These days if you want a comp'ed meal, and are not staying on property, you will almost invariably go to the host station, not talk to the pit boss.

Mdawg you should keep in mind that the Pope doesnt live as parishioners do. This would eliminate the need for most of your posts in subjects like ratings, comps and offers.

As one of the little people who can only expect slots or table comps and no host comps, I want to thank MDawg for telling us how life is in the lap of luxury and their hosts.

Well, there is nothing like sitting in a high roller suite after having won a grip of deng (money). Of course there is also no fun in being in that same suite after having lost, but luckily the latter happens to me rarely. When it does happen I just laugh it off, regroup and come back another time to win. Even the dealers mention that they never see me mad. Why get mad anyway? even a losing session might just be a precursor to a big winning one.

All this talk about the Pope has got me thinking about Mickey Rourke, The Pope of Greenwich Village. Talk about people who went downhill. Some people look like they underwent metamorphic mutation due to hard living - Scott Weiland (deceased) and Johnny Depp come to mind, but Mickey Rourke takes the cake. Compare him in something like Johnny Handsome to The Wrestler. Ouch. I read that before Mickey Rourke made it he survived on a diet of nothing but potatoes and candy bars, shoplifting the candy and buying the potatoes, until he realized that he was starting to look like cal (really bad) and upgraded his grub to include a better balance of nutrition. Besides bad plastic surgery maybe he reverted to his old diet? which led to Mickey's unlucky metamorphosis.

Quote: darkoz

All comps are entered manually by hosts???

Vast majority of comps given out in casinos do not go through hosts at all. Not sure how information gets spread around that hosts manually enter every single drink from a cocktail waitress, meal bought with points or t-shirt giveaway, but that is 100% wrong. Lots of these comps also have nothing to do with information entered by pit bosses; the rumor that all comps are based on that is also 100% wrong.

-----

It does seem possible that offering promo chips to baccarat players and not craps players is good marketing. If baccarat players generally play at a higher level and play for longer than craps players and need promotions just to start playing, then I can see why they would do it. Might be worth looking into to see if could be profitable.

I would agree and have noted above (notwithstanding misinterpretation from a few who have attempted to "quote" me) that depending on the status of the player, most charges on a player's hotel bill disappear without host intervention. But, as noted above, it depends on the player's status on arrival. Arrive on a room comp only, and not a bit of your food and beverage is going to disappear absent a host's cleaning up manually the bill at the end of the stay. And if you haven't heard or don't know what that expression "cleaned up your bill" means, then you're probably not qualified to comment on this topic.

As far as that "lots of these comps also have nothing to do with information entered by pit bosses," see how long your comps will last if you stop playing and have 0 "information entered by pit bosses" for long enough. Is there some other way that table game play is entered onto your player card account other than by playing at the tables and having pit bosses enter your play into the system?

And then also, saying or implying that "little charges" disappear automatically, implies that the alleged authority doesn't have a lot of experience with any of this either. How about internet or resort fees? Parking/valet? At some properties these are rolled into the player card status and a player with high enough status gets these free and they never appear on the hotel bill. But at many properties, daily internet or resort fees do not disappear automatically even if your status is full RFB and you have the highest level player card, and the host must remove these manually when he cleans up the bill at the end of the stay - and, he won't if, say, you enter on a room comp only, and your play isn't good enough.

Just check into a half dozen different Vegas properties owned by different entities, spend some time staying and playing, and then come back and comment. Until you've done that, recently because things do change over time, really, you're just presenting theory on what you think is or should be. Versus empirical data.


I had some Holiday Vegas casino reservations to handle so I communicated with a number of hosts/V.P.s, and mentioned in passing about this promo chip matter for table game players, mentioning to them also that I've received promo chips for both baccarat and blackjack play, What about craps? - all of the hosts and V.P.s said that notwithstanding that the calculations vary due to different house hold (edge, etc.), all table game players - craps, baccarat, blackjack, etc. are eligible to receive promo chips. This includes at Station Casinos which is where I understand Alan plays.
But, if you eat up all your comps with RFB + spa charges, you might not get any promo chips. Been there. I've received promo chips some stays and none others. Also, promo chips are not offered every single month at some of these properties.
I don't have much experience with getting promo chips based on actual loss, but I do know that they hand them out based on theoretical loss.

Quote: MDawg

I would agree and have noted above (notwithstanding misinterpretation from a few who have attempted to "quote" me) that depending on the status of the player, most charges on a player's hotel bill disappear without host intervention. But, as noted above, it depends on the player's status on arrival. Arrive on a room comp only, and not a bit of your food and beverage is going to disappear absent a host's cleaning up manually the bill at the end of the stay. And if you haven't heard or don't know what that expression "cleaned up your bill" means, then you're probably not qualified to comment on this topic.

As far as that "lots of these comps also have nothing to do with information entered by pit bosses," see how long your comps will last if you stop playing and have 0 "information entered by pit bosses" for long enough. Is there some other way that table game play is entered onto your player card account other than by playing at the tables and having pit bosses enter your play into the system?

And then also, saying or implying that "little charges" disappear automatically, implies that the alleged authority doesn't have a lot of experience with any of this either. How about internet or resort fees? Parking/valet? At some properties these are rolled into the player card status and a player with high enough status gets these free and they never appear on the hotel bill. But at many properties, daily internet or resort fees do not disappear automatically even if your status is full RFB and you have the highest level player card, and the host must remove these manually when he cleans up the bill at the end of the stay - and, he won't if, say, you enter on a room comp only, and your play isn't good enough.

Just check into a half dozen different Vegas properties owned by different entities, spend some time staying and playing, and then come back and comment. Until you've done that, recently because things do change over time, really, you're just presenting theory on what you think is or should be. Versus empirical data.


I had some Holiday Vegas casino reservations to handle so I communicated with a number of hosts/V.P.s, and mentioned in passing about this promo chip matter for table game players, mentioning to them also that I've received promo chips for both baccarat and blackjack play, What about craps? - all of the hosts and V.P.s said that notwithstanding that the calculations vary due to different house hold (edge, etc.), all table game players - craps, baccarat, blackjack, etc. are eligible to receive promo chips. This includes at Station Casinos which is where I understand Alan plays.
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I don't think you understood what TomG was saying.

He wasn't saying pitbosses don't enter the info. He was saying that data entry per se is not the mechanism that determines comps. That data entry is just a collection tool.

The data will go to the marketing department. Even they don't sit around analyzing it. The data from your play is just downloaded into a program and grouped with other similar play patrons which qualify you for whatever offers are at that level

The marketing department has a set number of promotional materials and have preprogrammed for that month who gets what in whichever category they fall.

So that's what he meant by pitbosses don't have anything to do with it.

Again, a very select few players with extraordinary play will get Host attention because the money exchanging hands is so high the marketing department just isn't going to make a category for it. But that's the exception not the rule.

So saying this is how the comps system works is just wrong.

It's like celebrities saying clothing is for free because they constantly are asked to wear designer clothes. It's free for them. If they try to convince the general public that clothes are generally free well that's just plain wrong.

Another way to put it, you are telling everyone to eat cake!

Well, I never said or intended to say that hosts calculate comps. But, hosts do decide what happens to available comps in more situations than one would think, including for other than high rollers. And even if a smaller player doesn't have a host a lot of what is on a player's hotel bill will not disappear absent a phone call to someone to ask that it be cleaned up.

Why not get back to discussing what the heck happened to Mickey Rourke.

Darkoz summed it up very nicely.
I'm still waiting to hear back from one casino which told me they dont give promo chips to non Baccarat players. I will name that casino.

Quote: MDawg

I had some Holiday Vegas casino reservations to handle so I communicated with a number of hosts/V.P.s, and mentioned in passing about this promo chip matter for table game players, mentioning to them also that I've received promo chips for both baccarat and blackjack play, What about craps? - all of the hosts and V.P.s said that notwithstanding that the calculations vary due to different house hold (edge, etc.), all table game players - craps, baccarat, blackjack, etc. are eligible to receive promo chips. This includes at Station Casinos which is where I understand Alan plays.
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Thank you for posting this Mdawg and when I read it I immediately called my host at RED ROCK. My host DENIED such a promo chip promotion exists for craps players but says there is a program for losing Baccarat players ONLY.

I asked my Host to confirm this. Just now my Host phoned me to confirm it after checking with the director of hosts at Red Rock.

I'm not shy and I'm not hesitant to stir the pot. If you have more info about promo chips I'm being denied I want to know about it.

I will concede I am NOT losing $10,000 a session or trip but I do have more than 600,000 points this half year which meant I qualified for Chairman twice.

What do I qualify for according to your sources?

I know now I'd be better off returning to Caesars.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: MDawg

I had some Holiday Vegas casino reservations to handle so I communicated with a number of hosts/V.P.s, and mentioned in passing about this promo chip matter for table game players, mentioning to them also that I've received promo chips for both baccarat and blackjack play, What about craps? - all of the hosts and V.P.s said that notwithstanding that the calculations vary due to different house hold (edge, etc.), all table game players - craps, baccarat, blackjack, etc. are eligible to receive promo chips. This includes at Station Casinos which is where I understand Alan plays.
link to original post

Thank you for posting this Mdawg and when I read it I immediately called my host at RED ROCK. My host DENIED such a promo chip promotion exists for craps players but says there is a program for losing Baccarat players ONLY.

I asked my Host to confirm this. Just now my Host phoned me to confirm it after checking with the director of hosts at Red Rock.

I'm not shy and I'm not hesitant to stir the pot. If you have more info about promo chips I'm being denied I want to know about it.

I will concede I am NOT losing $10,000 a session or trip but I do have more than 600,000 points this half year which meant I qualified for Chairman twice.

What do I qualify for according to your sources?

I know now I'd be better off returning to Caesars.
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The host specifically said "losing Baccarat players". Not just Baccarat players or high Theo Baccarat players but "losing Baccarat players".

Just asking for a friend

Yes. My host at Red Rock said there was a promo chip rebate program ONLY for losing Baccarat players and they must have losses of at least $10k.

In subsequent conversations I asked why there were no promo chip programs for other table game players and the word was Station Casinos ONLY does it for losing Baccarat players.

Alan, I assume that host you spoke to is at a Station Casino? He is wrong if that host is telling you that promo chips are not available at Station Casinos to other than Baccarat players. I mean, just by way of empirical evidence I haven't played Baccarat (only Blackjack) in a while at any Station Casino and I got promo chips from one Station property not long before we left Vegas, in November, and also in October I got some promo chips from a Station property during a period when I was playing Blackjack only.

As far as promo chips being only for "losing Baccarat players" at Station Casinos, that is probably just an expression or phrase that host used. Losing is never a requirement for any comp, including promo chips. Play hard enough and accumulate enough theoretical loss and you'll get the same, actually better and more, comps than any losing player. Alan, my hosts at the Station properties who give me promo chips are pretty high up there. Maybe the host you talked to doesn't know all the details about how promo chips are handed out, and given that every host at multiple properties confirmed to me that promo chips are available to all table game players, and given that I have obtained promo chips at all of the same properties without any actual loss, and for other than Baccarat play, I'd ask someone else, someone higher up, your question.

Anyway, what kind of theoretical loss are you booking?
Not so much at Station Properties but at Strip properties I am sometimes booking a hundred thousand dollars of theo loss in just one week sometimes. Maybe you just have to play harder to get the promo chips? At Station Casinos typically I just get an email every month saying, You have such and such in "free play" chips available. Here is one I got in a recent month and that wasn't even a month that I played much at that Station Property. Other months I have received more.


At Strip properties I don’t get an email, just my host tells me hey, you may get this amount of promo chips (lately, around $8000.) on your next trip, or, I ask and say, hey, give me some promo chips, etc. In other words, at the Strip properties I go to it seems more like a host has to do something for me to get the promo chips, but at Station Casinos seems like their system just offers them to me every month. I assume I play regularly enough so that the offers keep flowing.

I'm only reporting what my Host at Red Rock told me. I would love to fire back with other information.

But even though I have more than 600,000 points in six months (effectively "double Chairman") I dont qualify for losing $10,000 per visit or trip. Heck my buy ins are in the $300 to $500 range.

If there is info that shows I'm entitled to promo chips I'd be very appreciative.

I see players come to the craps tables all the time with primo chips but I'm being told they just dropped $10k at Baccarat.

Promo chips, as are any other comps, are available via actual or theoretical loss. At all of the casinos I play at, including Station Casinos, these "free play" chips are available to any table game player, not just Baccarat. (I was already sure this was the case, but confirmed it directly as well as with hosts/V.P.s.) If your host won't give you any I'd move up the chain and talk to someone else.

But that is not to say that you qualify for these free play chips at Station - just that I know for a fact that at Red Rock they are given to other than just Baccarat players, and not just for a straight loss. But, yes, one way to get free play chips at Red Rock is via a loss, but actually according to what I was told at Red Rock not just a -10K loss but at least -25K loss, and then a player will get 3% back as free play chips, assuming comps aren't already expended in other ways. But even without any actual loss Station Casinos has and does give out these same free play chips, if the theoretical loss is sufficient - meaning, if the player is a good, consistent player (win, lose or draw).

It sounds like someone is stonewalling you. But again, do you qualify for these free play chips at Red Rock? I don't know.

Thanks Mdawg. Thankfully I dont have losses theoretical or actual that you mention.

Well, you have to get either your theo loss or actual loss high enough to get promo chips at some of these higher end casinos because promo chips are sometimes considered higher end comps. At some casinos they might hand out some free play chips to any consistent player though.

Quote: MDawg

Well, you have to get either your theo loss or actual loss high enough to get promo chips
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You're suggesting gambling more and even losing more just to get comps?

You do understand what theoretical loss is, right? Win, lose or draw, this increases with more play. If you expect to always lose, then yes the more you play the more you will lose but that hasn't been my experience. I put in a lot of play this year and ended ahead, same as last year, same as the two years before too.

Quote: MDawg

You do understand what theoretical loss is, right? Win, lose or draw, this increases with more play. If you expect to always lose, then yes the more you play the more you will lose but that hasn't been my experience. I put in a lot of play this year and ended ahead, same as last year, same as the two years before too.
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Unfortunately I'm not a fortune teller nor can I guarantee myself a win. Thank you, Sir Pope of Vegas.

When I started posting here in 2018, I posted that I wasn't sure if I would continue to win the way I had before my decade or so hiatus.

Three years later, based on the actual results, I can extrapolate a projected win.

In your case, if you look back and see consistent wins, you too could extrapolate a projected win. If you look back and see consistent losses, then you could extrapolate a projected loss.

Not that hard. No need to be a fortune teller.

hello a simple question on the baccarat can one bet on the equality and on the bank at the same time. I know that no martingale really works but in this case several martingales would it be possible ?????