Paris Poker
October 23rd, 2019 at 6:17:53 PM
permalink
I see Paris Poker has started a field trial at--where else?--the Paris casino. Did anyone play this at G2E?
Have you tried 22 tonight? I said 22.
October 23rd, 2019 at 7:31:45 PM
permalink
It looks like fun! I'll field test it on my in-laws when I can see the pay table.
Mrs. smooth gets very annoyed when I say something has "a certain je ne sais quoi."
Mrs. smooth gets very annoyed when I say something has "a certain je ne sais quoi."
October 23rd, 2019 at 8:19:15 PM
permalink
Based on the Scientific Games video for Paris Poker:
Rules
Player vs. Dealer
Five cards dealt, one card selected as a wild card
Dealer must qualify with a pair of aces or better
When dealer doesn't qualify: Ante wagers push
When dealer qualifies: All remaining bets resolved as normal
It looks as if you can make just an Ante bet.
Ante and Play bets pay even money.
I'm not sure if the Play bet is made before or after one sees their hand—if it's before, then the guy on the left past-posts at the 0:21 mark of the video!
Optional:
Players Monster bet
Banker Buster bet
From the 0:34 mark:
Player's Monster Bet pays*
Player wins if hand contains:
Five Aces—1000
Five of a Kind (other)—200
Royal Flush—100
Straight Flush—40
Four of a King—7
Full House—3
Flush—2
Straight—1
Banker's Buster Bet pays*
Dealer does not qualify—3.5
Player wins if dealer's hand is not a pair of aces or better
I don't know what the asterisk stands for.
There appears to be a progressive bet with a paytable from the 0:05 mark:
Royal Flush—100% of major ($10,000 in example); Envy: $1,000
Straight Flush—10% of major ($10,000 in example); Envy: $300
Four of a King—300 for 1
Full House—50 for 1
Flush—40 for 1
Straight—30 for 1
Three of a Kind–9 for 1
Rules
Player vs. Dealer
Five cards dealt, one card selected as a wild card
Dealer must qualify with a pair of aces or better
When dealer doesn't qualify: Ante wagers push
When dealer qualifies: All remaining bets resolved as normal
It looks as if you can make just an Ante bet.
Ante and Play bets pay even money.
I'm not sure if the Play bet is made before or after one sees their hand—if it's before, then the guy on the left past-posts at the 0:21 mark of the video!
Optional:
Players Monster bet
Banker Buster bet
From the 0:34 mark:
Player's Monster Bet pays*
Player wins if hand contains:
Five Aces—1000
Five of a Kind (other)—200
Royal Flush—100
Straight Flush—40
Four of a King—7
Full House—3
Flush—2
Straight—1
Banker's Buster Bet pays*
Dealer does not qualify—3.5
Player wins if dealer's hand is not a pair of aces or better
I don't know what the asterisk stands for.
There appears to be a progressive bet with a paytable from the 0:05 mark:
Royal Flush—100% of major ($10,000 in example); Envy: $1,000
Straight Flush—10% of major ($10,000 in example); Envy: $300
Four of a King—300 for 1
Full House—50 for 1
Flush—40 for 1
Straight—30 for 1
Three of a Kind–9 for 1
October 24th, 2019 at 5:06:59 AM
permalink
I saw this at G2E and have their rules in SG's "featured products" brochure.
I'm quite sure the player may look at his cards before making the raise/fold decision.
I'm quite sure the player may look at his cards before making the raise/fold decision.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 24th, 2019 at 8:59:11 AM
permalink
Is only one specific card in each hand (say the 4H) designated as a wild card? Or, if you have a natural pair of 4s, can you designate cards with the rank of 4 as a wild card?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 24th, 2019 at 10:20:16 AM
permalink
Quote: gordonm888Is only one specific card in each hand (say the 4H) designated as a wild card? Or, if you have a natural pair of 4s, can you designate cards with the rank of 4 as a wild card?
You choose your wild card i think and only one card. The felt itself says "Wild Card", not something like "Wild Rank". So in the video the dealer is playing 444QT since she played a 7d to be a wild card.
But if you were dealt say 4c4h5c7d8h, you would call one of your fours a wild card to make a straight. This is very similar to Caribbean Stud with a choose your own wild card. The only major strategy decision is where is the play/fold point. A pair of aces (with what kicker??) is where I assume it is.
Last edited by: tringlomane on Oct 24, 2019
October 24th, 2019 at 11:57:16 AM
permalink
But it will look recklessly
: )
: )
October 24th, 2019 at 4:05:44 PM
permalink
Okay, so with this rules clarification it seems to me that this game is very similar to 5 card stud without the wild card.
With the wild card, the categories of hands are:
5 of a Kind
Straight Flush and Royal Flush
Quads
Full house
Flush
Straight
Trips
One Pair
Natural High Card Hand --> One Pair (and infrequently straight, flush ,SF or RF)
___So the worst natural hand category in 5-card Stud is still usually the worst card category in Paris Poker.
One Pair Hand --> Trips (and very infrequently straight, flush ,SF and RF)
___ So the 2nd worst hand category in 5-card Stud becomes the 2nd worst card category in this wild card game
Two Pair Hand --> Full House
Trips --> Quads
___ Admittedly, these natural hands are significantly promoted by the wild card feature, but it refers to a small fraction of natural hands that were winning almost all the time anyway.
Straight, Flush --->Unchanged (and infrequently straight-->flush, or either --->SF or RF)
Quads ---> 5 of a kind
____ This is an uber powerful hand (Quads in 5-card stud) transforming into an uber powerful hand in Paris Poker (5oaK).
I guess what I'm saying is that Paris Poker will play pretty much like a 5 card stud game in which the dealer needs an Ace-High or better to qualify. The wild card feature adds surprisingly little.
With the wild card, the categories of hands are:
5 of a Kind
Straight Flush and Royal Flush
Quads
Full house
Flush
Straight
Trips
One Pair
Natural High Card Hand --> One Pair (and infrequently straight, flush ,SF or RF)
___So the worst natural hand category in 5-card Stud is still usually the worst card category in Paris Poker.
One Pair Hand --> Trips (and very infrequently straight, flush ,SF and RF)
___ So the 2nd worst hand category in 5-card Stud becomes the 2nd worst card category in this wild card game
Two Pair Hand --> Full House
Trips --> Quads
___ Admittedly, these natural hands are significantly promoted by the wild card feature, but it refers to a small fraction of natural hands that were winning almost all the time anyway.
Straight, Flush --->Unchanged (and infrequently straight-->flush, or either --->SF or RF)
Quads ---> 5 of a kind
____ This is an uber powerful hand (Quads in 5-card stud) transforming into an uber powerful hand in Paris Poker (5oaK).
I guess what I'm saying is that Paris Poker will play pretty much like a 5 card stud game in which the dealer needs an Ace-High or better to qualify. The wild card feature adds surprisingly little.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 24th, 2019 at 6:34:27 PM
permalink
Quote: gordonm888Is only one specific card in each hand (say the 4H) designated as a wild card? Or, if you have a natural pair of 4s, can you designate cards with the rank of 4 as a wild card?
As others have said, it is like trading one of your cards for a joker. It doesn't make any other cards wild except the one joker.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 25th, 2019 at 8:05:00 AM
permalink
Here is my analysis of the Player's Monster hand. Can I get an a-men from any other the math geniuses of the forum?
p.s. Happy Nevada day!
| Hand | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Five aces | 1000 | 48 | 0.000018 | 0.018469 |
| Five of a kind | 200 | 576 | 0.000222 | 0.044325 |
| Royal flush | 100 | 944 | 0.000363 | 0.036322 |
| Straight flush | 40 | 6,592 | 0.002536 | 0.101456 |
| Four of a kind | 7 | 58,656 | 0.022569 | 0.157983 |
| Full house | 3 | 123,552 | 0.047539 | 0.142617 |
| Flush | 2 | 109,152 | 0.041998 | 0.083997 |
| Straight | 1 | 334,608 | 0.128747 | 0.128747 |
| Three of a kind | -1 | 1,002,912 | 0.385890 | -0.385890 |
| Pair | -1 | 961,920 | 0.370117 | -0.370117 |
| Total | 2,598,960 | 1.000000 | -0.042091 |
p.s. Happy Nevada day!
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 25th, 2019 at 12:05:01 PM
permalink
I've got my computer going on the main game. It will take 9 hours and 22 minutes to cycle through every combination. So, expect results, hopefully good ones, to be ready about 9:30 PM Vegas time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 25th, 2019 at 12:58:42 PM
permalink
As a strategy for the PLAY/FOLD decision I get:
PLAY if your hand (with the wild card) is AA-Q96 or higher.
FOLD any hand that (with the wild card) is AA-Q95 or lower.
Exceptions
PLAY AA-Q95 when
- your wild card is a 4 and your 5-card hand has all 4 suits.
FOLD AA-Q96
- when your wild card is a 2
*******************************
Having a deuce in your hand is a bad card, because the deuce blocks fewer dealer straights.
PLAY if your hand (with the wild card) is AA-Q96 or higher.
FOLD any hand that (with the wild card) is AA-Q95 or lower.
Exceptions
PLAY AA-Q95 when
- your wild card is a 4 and your 5-card hand has all 4 suits.
FOLD AA-Q96
- when your wild card is a 2
*******************************
Having a deuce in your hand is a bad card, because the deuce blocks fewer dealer straights.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Oct 25, 2019
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 25th, 2019 at 2:44:59 PM
permalink
I’m in the presence of wizards!
October 25th, 2019 at 3:57:24 PM
permalink
five card games are usually more vulnerable to player collusion. Would seeing one or two dealer cards in other player's hands change any play/fold decisions.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 26th, 2019 at 9:44:07 AM
permalink
Results are in!
The player will raise 69.9% of the time, for an average final wager of 1.699. So, house edge is 3.44% and element of risk is 2.03%.
Next, I shall confirm or deny Gordon's strategy.
| Event | Pays | Combinations | Probability | Return |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Player wins | 2 | 1,196,963,177,508 | 0.300243 | 0.600486 |
| Dealer doesn't qualify | 1 | 612,847,987,596 | 0.153725 | 0.153725 |
| Push | 0 | 4,421,831,136 | 0.001109 | 0.000000 |
| Fold | -1 | 1,200,890,164,320 | 0.301228 | -0.301228 |
| Dealer wins | -2 | 971,522,942,880 | 0.243694 | -0.487389 |
| Total | 3,986,646,103,440 | 1.000000 | -0.034405 |
The player will raise 69.9% of the time, for an average final wager of 1.699. So, house edge is 3.44% and element of risk is 2.03%.
Next, I shall confirm or deny Gordon's strategy.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 26th, 2019 at 9:52:39 AM
permalink
Quote: WizardSo, house edge is 3.44%
Not bad for a carnival game. Looks like it might be pretty fun, too. I'd give it a shot, especially if the dealer was as distracting as the woman in the video.
October 26th, 2019 at 10:59:25 AM
permalink
Quote: Wizard
The player will raise 69.9% of the time, for an average final wager of 1.699. So, house edge is 3.44% and element of risk is 2.03%.
Next, I shall confirm or deny Gordon's strategy.
Always possible that I made a mistake - actually, given my track record recently its more than "possible." I did some things manually and may have missed something.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 26th, 2019 at 12:13:47 PM
permalink
Quote: gordonm888As a strategy for the PLAY/FOLD decision I get:
PLAY if your hand (with the wild card) is AA-Q96 or higher.
FOLD any hand that (with the wild card) is AA-Q95 or lower.
Exceptions
PLAY AA-Q95 when
- your wild card is a 4 and your 5-card hand has all 4 suits.
FOLD AA-Q96
- when your wild card is a 2
My own analysis is showing the borderline range to be close to this. However, I think there are exceptions you're missing. For example, I show 2h, 6d, Tc, Qs, Ah to be a fold.
I think what I'm going to advise on my site is to raise with AAQT (after the wild substitution) or better. A difference between that and optimal should be minute.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 27th, 2019 at 7:55:20 PM
permalink
If we must boil down the strategy to raising on X-Y-Z or higher, before the switch, I find the best strategy to be to raise with A-Q-10 or better. That is an increase in house edge of 0.0020%, compared to optimal. A-Q-9 is an increase of 0.0122% and A-Q-J is 0.0107%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 27th, 2019 at 9:38:00 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardMy own analysis is showing the borderline range to be close to this. However, I think there are exceptions you're missing. For example, I show 2h, 6d, Tc, Qs, Ah to be a fold.
I think what I'm going to advise on my site is to raise with AAQT (after the wild substitution) or better. A difference between that and optimal should be minute.
BTW, I agree. I found that I had erroneously scored a group of hands and when I corrected it that AQ9 vs AQ10 is the breakpoint.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 28th, 2019 at 6:47:02 AM
permalink
Quote: gordonm888BTW, I agree. I found that I had erroneously scored a group of hands and when I corrected it that AQ9 vs AQ10 is the breakpoint.
Thanks for the second set of eyeballs on this, Gordon. I am a strong believer in the value of peer review.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 28th, 2019 at 7:29:28 AM
permalink
Paris Poker page is up. I welcome all comments.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 28th, 2019 at 7:47:33 AM
permalink
Quote: WizardParis Poker page is up. I welcome all comments.
You are missing the full house odds/pays of "3" on the return table for the Player Monster (I must say, I like the name of that wager...).
.
October 28th, 2019 at 10:38:02 AM
permalink
Quote: mrsuit31You are missing the full house odds/pays of "3" on the return table for the Player Monster (I must say, I like the name of that wager...).
Thanks, good catch.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 28th, 2019 at 4:51:31 PM
permalink
I'm not sure rule #14 is correct regarding the Banker Buster Bet. It seems to indicate that the bet wins or pushes, but doesn't lose.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 28th, 2019 at 6:25:51 PM
permalink
Quote: AyecarumbaI'm not sure rule #14 is correct regarding the Banker Buster Bet. It seems to indicate that the bet wins or pushes, but doesn't lose.
Thanks -- fixed.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 28th, 2019 at 11:24:49 PM
permalink
Mind blown at how fast you coded this and turned the analysis around. Not for publication of course, but have you looked at hole card strategy by chance?
Based on the video, it looks like the Banker's Buster pays 3.5 to 1; you list it as 3 to 1 in both Rule 14 and the analysis table (which, by the way, is titled "Dealer Doesn't Qualify Analysis" instead of "Banker's Buster Analysis," though that very well may have been intentional). Amazingly, that would bring the house edge down to a very respectable 1.265%, about as good as you can find for a side bet.
Also (and this is purely minutia), Gordon's handle is gordonm888 as opposed to gordon888 for the acknowledgements.
Quote: WizardParis Poker page is up. I welcome all comments.
Based on the video, it looks like the Banker's Buster pays 3.5 to 1; you list it as 3 to 1 in both Rule 14 and the analysis table (which, by the way, is titled "Dealer Doesn't Qualify Analysis" instead of "Banker's Buster Analysis," though that very well may have been intentional). Amazingly, that would bring the house edge down to a very respectable 1.265%, about as good as you can find for a side bet.
Also (and this is purely minutia), Gordon's handle is gordonm888 as opposed to gordon888 for the acknowledgements.
Last edited by: Ajaxx on Oct 29, 2019
"Not only [does] God play dice... he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen." ~ Stephen Hawking
October 28th, 2019 at 11:43:28 PM
permalink
I think that in Player's Monster section, the listed house edge of 3.86% should in fact be 4.21%.
October 29th, 2019 at 12:22:42 AM
permalink
Also in that same Player's Monster section, I think the probability and return in the "Loser" row of the table should be 0.756007 and -0.756007, respectively, instead of 0.385890 and -0.385890.
"Not only [does] God play dice... he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen." ~ Stephen Hawking
October 29th, 2019 at 5:28:16 AM
permalink
Thanks for the comments and corrections. I had a formatting error in the Player's Monster section, which I just fixed.
As for the Banker's Buster, the literature I got at the show says it pays 3 to 1. I have yet to actually visit the game at the Paris.
Also, corrected gordonm888's name.
As for the Banker's Buster, the literature I got at the show says it pays 3 to 1. I have yet to actually visit the game at the Paris.
Also, corrected gordonm888's name.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 29th, 2019 at 2:33:14 PM
permalink
Quote: WizardAs for the Banker's Buster, the literature I got at the show says it pays 3 to 1. I have yet to actually visit the game at the Paris.
Interesting. Looks like the video came out in June, so probably best to trust your more recent number. Maybe SG decided a true sucker bet would sell better at G2E.
"Not only [does] God play dice... he sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen." ~ Stephen Hawking
December 2nd, 2019 at 12:29:45 AM
permalink
Over Thanksgiving weekend, I forced my family members into a 15-hand Paris Poker tournament to test the "fun factor" of the game. It seemed to go well.
The Wizard's Paris Poker page says the player will raise 68.9% of the time, and the dealer qualifies 78% of the time—we had similar numbers even with a small sample size. In fact, two quads were dealt, which also is about right for 75 total hands.
Playing were my dad-in-law, the Mrs./bro-in-law, mom-in-law, and my 14-year-old son.
*—denotes best hand
Everyone chipped in $5 for a winner-take-all pot of $20, and started with $200 value in chips. The Mrs. left in the middle to make lunch, so my bro-in-law took over for her. My son won the tournament on the last hand thanks to the guidance of his uncle, who instructed him to bet $5 each on Ante/Play and everything else on the Player's Monster side bet. He made a straight on his last hand, doubling his $130 wager. My dad-in-law finished second with exactly $200.
Here's our responses to the question: Would you play this game for real in a casino?
The Wizard's Paris Poker page says the player will raise 68.9% of the time, and the dealer qualifies 78% of the time—we had similar numbers even with a small sample size. In fact, two quads were dealt, which also is about right for 75 total hands.
Playing were my dad-in-law, the Mrs./bro-in-law, mom-in-law, and my 14-year-old son.
*—denotes best hand
| Dealer qualified? | DIL | Mrs./BIL | MIL | Son |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Yes | Fold | Fold | Loss | Won* |
| Yes* | Loss | Loss | Loss | Loss |
| Yes | Loss | Loss | Won* | Loss |
| No | Won | Won | Won | Won |
| No | Won | Won | Won* | Fold |
| Yes | Loss | Loss | Loss | Won* |
| Yes | Won | Loss | Won* | Loss |
| Yes | Fold | Won | Won* | Fold |
| Yes | Fold | Won | Won | Won* |
| Yes | Won* | Fold | Loss | Fold |
| Yes* | Fold | Loss | Loss | Loss |
| No | Won* | Fold | Fold | Fold |
| No | Won* | Fold | Won | Won |
| Yes | Won | Loss | Loss | Won* |
| Yes | Loss | Won* | Loss | Won |
Everyone chipped in $5 for a winner-take-all pot of $20, and started with $200 value in chips. The Mrs. left in the middle to make lunch, so my bro-in-law took over for her. My son won the tournament on the last hand thanks to the guidance of his uncle, who instructed him to bet $5 each on Ante/Play and everything else on the Player's Monster side bet. He made a straight on his last hand, doubling his $130 wager. My dad-in-law finished second with exactly $200.
Here's our responses to the question: Would you play this game for real in a casino?
| Me | DIL | BIL | MIL | Son |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes |
