Side Bet City

Side Bet City is a simple poker-based game by Evolution Gaming. The dealer deals out seven cards and the player may bet on the poker value of the first three, first five, and all seven cards. There is also a "no win" bet that wins if none of these hands win. That one was the hardest to analyze and I'm soliciting second opinions on it.

The question for the poll is would you play Side Bet City? Multiple votes allowed.

There’s no option to vote, but I agree 100% on your no win math.

Quote: Wizard

Side Bet City is a simple poker-based game by Evolution Gaming. The dealer deals out seven cards and the player may bet on the poker value of the first three, first five, and all seven cards. There is also a "no win" bet that wins if none of these hands win. That one was the hardest to analyze and I'm soliciting second opinions on it.

The question for the poll is would you play Side Bet City? Multiple votes allowed.

Side Bet City is a similar game to:
3-5-7 Poker http://bit.ly/2MWz45R

Introduction
3-5-7 Poker is a simple poker based game slowly finding a home in the casinos.
It is actually 3 games in 1, the player can bet on a 3, 5, and 7 card hand and is paid according to the poker value of each.

Rules
Play begins with the player making 2 or 3 wagers. The player must bet on the 3 card and 5 card hand, the 7 card hand is optional. The player may bet any amount on any hand, subject to the table minimum and maximum.
After all players have bet, the dealer will give 3 cards to each player and 4 to himself, face down. Based on his first three cards the player may surrender half his 7 card bet if he wishes, in other words the dealer gets half the 7 card bet and the player gets back the other half.

"The outcome of bets on the 7 Card Hand shall be determined by the poker value of all seven cards dealt and the pay table below."

"7 Card Hand Pay Table
HAND PAYS
Royal flush 500
Straight flush 100
Four of a kind 50
Full house 7
Flush 5
Straight 4
Three of a kind 3 "
*******************************

I just want to check on the meaning of flush and straight for a 7 Card Hand in the game description text/table above: does it refer to a 5 card straight and 5 card flush? or to a 7 card straight and 7 card flush?

I assume its 5 card straight/flush because a full house normally refers to a 5 card poker hand consisting of '3 of a kind + a pair' but the write-up could be improved by a short footnote or explanation that the terms 'flush' and 'straight' refer to 3-cards for the 3 card hand and to 5-cards for the 5 card and 7 card hands.

One of the worst and non relevant game names I've ever heard of.


ZCore13

Don't think I'd play. Doesn't seem exciting or would keep my interest.

Who wants to get paid 1000:1 on a 1/500000 bet? (5 card) Doesn't that seem low, even for VP? Maybe not.

I've identified three different approaches to use combination theory to calculate the probability of the "No Win" outcome. The No Win probability is difficult because it involves different criteria at three different stages of the "deal" and most of us have not done the math on this before. The approaches are.

1. Start with losing 3 card hands (no pairs, no 3 card straights nor 3 card flushes) and calculate the probability that they will lose at 5 cards (no pairs nor two pairs nor trips) and also lose at 7 cards ( no 5 card straights nor 5 card flushes nor trips, boats nor quads).

2. Start with losing 5 cards hands (no pairs, 5 card straights nor 5 card flushes) calculate the probability that they will not have have made a 3 card flush or straight with their first three cards (i.e., will have lost at the 3 card point) and will also lose at 7 cards - will not make trips, nor a 5 card straight nor a 5 card flush.

3. Start with losing 7 card hands ( no 5 card straights nor flushes and either No Pair, One Pair or Two Pair) and calculate what fraction of those hands will not have won as 3-card hands nor 5 card hands.

I started out with approach #3 (losing 7 card hands as a starting point) and have made decent progress.

But I am becoming discouraged and am starting to believe that approach #2 would be faster.

Quote: IndyJeffrey

Don't think I'd play. Doesn't seem exciting or would keep my interest.

Who wants to get paid 1000:1 on a 1/500000 bet? (5 card) Doesn't that seem low, even for VP? Maybe not.

I think that an approach that bettors might take would be to lay money on all three WIN bets.

Therefore, if you made a 5 card Royal Flush in five cards, you would win:
1000-1 on the 5 card bet
500-1 on the 7 card bet
at least 5-1 (for a straight) on the 3 card bet, and perhaps 40-1 or 100-1 if you make a 3 card straight flush or royal flush, respectively.

Clearly, the payouts are really lame on the royal flush, but you would win big on 2 or all 3 of your bets. I imagine that the game designers are trying to limit exposure of the house.

I've had a quick look and started with the non-winning 3-card hands. They can easily be worked out as 60 perms for each set of three odd cards (e.g. AKJ) not a straight. There are SSH,SHS,HSS,SHD of these. It then transpires that the five card hand cannot be a flush (as the first three weren't) so you can either have a small pair or five odd cards (that don't form a straight). There's an element of double counting as a starting AKJ AKT AK9 KJT KJ9 could turn into AKJT9. Similarly you could land up with a small pair AKJ99 either from AKJ+99 or AK9+J9 etc. However you do need to know suits (if there are three or four the same) as this will come into play for 7-card hands - it may land up easier to say that there are four in a suit or three in a suit and other hands can be ignored for flush purposes.

I don't understand how a winning "all hands lose" bet works. It pays 0.7—so does that mean it pays $7 on a $10 bet?

Oh wait, this is an online game, so no $2.50 chips needed. (I was thinking "what happens when the bet is $25?")

Quote: gordonm888

I've identified three different approaches to use combination theory to calculate the probability of the "No Win" outcome. The No Win probability is difficult because it involves different criteria at three different stages of the "deal" and most of us have not done the math on this before. The approaches are.

1. Start with losing 3 card hands (no pairs, no 3 card straights nor 3 card flushes) and calculate the probability that they will lose at 5 cards (no pairs nor two pairs nor trips) and also lose at 7 cards ( no 5 card straights nor 5 card flushes nor trips, boats nor quads).

2. Start with losing 5 cards hands (no pairs, 5 card straights nor 5 card flushes) calculate the probability that they will not have have made a 3 card flush or straight with their first three cards (i.e., will have lost at the 3 card point) and will also lose at 7 cards - will not make trips, nor a 5 card straight nor a 5 card flush.

3. Start with losing 7 card hands ( no 5 card straights nor flushes and either No Pair, One Pair or Two Pair) and calculate what fraction of those hands will not have won as 3-card hands nor 5 card hands.

I started out with approach #3 (losing 7 card hands as a starting point) and have made decent progress.

But I am becoming discouraged and am starting to believe that approach #2 would be faster.

I did #3. It takes 4 minutes. I do use suit folding on the 7 and 5 card hands, so it doesn’t evaluate the same hand type twice.

I didn’t do anything combinatorial, but looped through all 5 card subsets of each 7 card hand and then all 3 card subsets of the 5 cards, but only when the 5 cards were losers.

Like the poll suggests, it's a pretty cool name but, with only four bets to choose from, I have to wonder how it applies to this particular game. Craps or Sic Bo would have much stronger claims to the title.

Now, a blackjack or baccarat table complete with every side bet ever created for it placed in columns and rows on the felt like a roulette layout? That would be a side bet city.

Quote: Gialmere

Like the poll suggests, it's a pretty cool name but, with only four bets to choose from, I have to wonder how it applies to this particular game. Craps or Sic Bo would have much stronger claims to the title.

Now, a blackjack or baccarat table complete with every side bet ever created for it placed in columns and rows on the felt like a roulette layout? That would be a side bet city.

My Hybrid Triple Bet® (Side Bet City) Based on 3 Blackjack Side-bets ©2011.

Hybrid Triple Bet® at Wizard of Vegas: http://bit.ly/2Ed1It7


Hybrid Triple-Bet®:
The game is played with six decks of standard card dealt from a shoe or shuffle machine. The game is unusual in consisting of three separate wagers, for effectively three separate games but played during the same hand.

1. Players must first place three wagers on the three betting circles in front of them, being:-

2. Flush-Bet (top), Sandwich-Bet (middle) and Block-Bet (bottom).

3. The three wagers may each be for different amounts within the table maximums, but participating players must make all three wagers. Read More

Quote: CrystalMath

There’s no option to vote, but I agree 100% on your no win math.

Thank you!

Quote: MrCasinoGames

Side Bet City is a similar game to: 3-5-7 Poker

Thanks, I forgot about 3-5-7 Poker.

Quote: gordonm888

I've identified three different approaches to use combination theory to calculate the probability of the "No Win" outcome...

I tried a mathematical solution for about 10 minutes until I decided the math would get too messy and then wrote a simple looping program. It saves some time to not loop if there is already a winner with 3 or 5 cards. My program takes about 5 minutes. Not the most elegant analysis I've ever done, but quick in terms of my time.