Poll: Your House Edge Tolerance?

In general, what house edge are you willing to tolerate when you play? Don't count outliers like the occasional Powerball ticket or a social gambling session with friends at their favorite (i.e. bad odds) game.

There seems to be a wide spread of players here. Some will crunch numbers for hours (or days) to shave two hundredths of 1% off the house edge. Some will memorize lengthy lists that the numbers show as optimal strategy. Others are happy to sacrifice one or two edge points if they enjoy a particular game or wager. I was curious what that spread is. Apologies if this poll has been done before.

A lot of it depends on the purpose of the play.

For VP, I usually only play FPDW (100.76%), but if I want to drink, socialize and spend some time, I see no problem playing Pai Gow Poker.

Good poll, thanks. I don't believe it's been asked before.

The more I learn here, the lower my tolerance for HE has gone.

One thing that should weigh heavily in your game choice is what the Wizard calls Element of Risk (EOR). It comes into play in all games with a decision point, like most of the poker-based table games.

Craps, baccarat, roulette, PGP, you make a bet and wait for an outcome.

Blackjack, you only have the chance to add more money on doubles or splits. (Insurance is different, as is surrender, but related). So EOR matters there, but only on those hands, which is why the best choice changes based on the house rules.

UTH, 3CP, Mississippi Stud, etc. it matters on EVERY hand, and by quite a lot. For example, from WoO UTH page :

Quote: WoO

The lower right cell shows a house edge of 2.185% per ante bet. What this means, for example, is if you bet $1 and both the Ante and Blind initially, then you can expect to lose 2.185 cents on average. However for comparison to other games I believe the Element of Risk is more appropriate to look at. The average total amount bet by the end of the hand is 4.152252 times the ante bet. So the element of risk would be 2.185%/4.152252 = 0.526%.

You place your ante. Then you can control how much more you bet based on how good your hand is. Learn the complicated (correct) strategy, and your HE is reduced to about .5% . Don't learn it, and you're probably playing at an effective HE of 7-10% (I see a lot of this - betting 3x instead of 4x, not betting 4x ALL aces, checking small pairs, staying on junk, etc.)

So not considering EOR skews your poll choices above some. Roulette is still 5.+%, but UTH is .526%. 3CP is right at 2%. MS Stud improves almost as much as UTH, as explained below, also from WoO:

Quote:

The lower right cell shows a house edge of 4.91%. On average, the player will bet 3.59 units per hand. The ratio of the expected loss to total amount bet, what I call the "element of risk," is 4.91%/3.59 = 1.37%

The HE formula is based on initial bet amount only. UTH involves as much as 5x your ante(initial bet amount). MS Stud as much as 9x. So any true evaluation of your exposure on a game really must include EOR, and before you play it, you simply HAVE to take the time to learn the strategy.

Quote: beachbumbabs

One thing that should weigh heavily in your game choice is what the Wizard calls Element of Risk (EOR). It comes into play in all games with a decision point, like most of the poker-based table games.

Craps, baccarat, roulette, PGP, you make a bet and wait for an outcome.

Blackjack, you only have the chance to add more money on doubles or splits. (Insurance is different, as is surrender, but related). So EOR matters there, but only on those hands, which is why the best choice changes based on the house rules.

UTH, 3CP, Mississippi Stud, etc. it matters on EVERY hand, and by quite a lot. For example, from WoO UTH page :


You place your ante. Then you can control how much more you bet based on how good your hand is. Learn the complicated (correct) strategy, and your HE is reduced to about .5% . Don't learn it, and you're probably playing at an effective HE of 7-10% (I see a lot of this - betting 3x instead of 4x, not betting 4x ALL aces, checking small pairs, staying on junk, etc.)

So not considering EOR skews your poll choices above some. Roulette is still 5.+%, but UTH is .526%. 3CP is right at 2%. MS Stud improves almost as much as UTH, as explained below, also from WoO:


The HE formula is based on initial bet amount only. UTH involves as much as 5x your ante(initial bet amount). MS Stud as much as 9x. So any true evaluation of your exposure on a game really must include EOR, and before you play it, you simply HAVE to take the time to learn the strategy.

wait.. what? uth is .5% HE?

so whats the HE for MS Stud?

as for craps, I bet $10 don't pass and $60 odds. whats the HE using wiz's EOR method?

Lowroller about to hit Vegas
I pay close attention to a casino's edge
Although I am staying on the strip, I do very little gambling on the strip due to casino edge.
I know Pai Gow poker has a huge casino edge but its a real fun game and I plan on playing a little at NYNY
Probabbly play some 25cent 99.54 JOB at the Cromwell if they still have it. Thats really it for strip gambling. I like BJ but will only play at the El Cortez due to great rules.
I generally eat and sight see on the strip and do some gambling downtown at various casinos with 99.54% or better VP

Quote: 100xOdds

Quote: beachbumbabs

One thing that should weigh heavily in your game choice is what the Wizard calls Element of Risk (EOR). It comes into play in all games with a decision point, like most of the poker-based table games.

Craps, baccarat, roulette, PGP, you make a bet and wait for an outcome.

Blackjack, you only have the chance to add more money on doubles or splits. (Insurance is different, as is surrender, but related). So EOR matters there, but only on those hands, which is why the best choice changes based on the house rules.

UTH, 3CP, Mississippi Stud, etc. it matters on EVERY hand, and by quite a lot. For example, from WoO UTH page :


You place your ante. Then you can control how much more you bet based on how good your hand is. Learn the complicated (correct) strategy, and your HE is reduced to about .5% . Don't learn it, and you're probably playing at an effective HE of 7-10% (I see a lot of this - betting 3x instead of 4x, not betting 4x ALL aces, checking small pairs, staying on junk, etc.)

So not considering EOR skews your poll choices above some. Roulette is still 5.+%, but UTH is .526%. 3CP is right at 2%. MS Stud improves almost as much as UTH, as explained below, also from WoO:


The HE formula is based on initial bet amount only. UTH involves as much as 5x your ante(initial bet amount). MS Stud as much as 9x. So any true evaluation of your exposure on a game really must include EOR, and before you play it, you simply HAVE to take the time to learn the strategy.

wait.. what? uth is .5% HE?

so whats the HE for MS Stud?

as for craps, I bet $10 don't pass and $60 odds. whats the HE using wiz's EOR method?

Ok. Craps has no decision point where you can increase the amount of the bet. You bet, the dice roll, you win, lose, or the decision is pending. So the EOR is the same as the HE. You are already making the lowest HE bet on the table, and improving your return further with the odds bets.

If you look at the 2 quoted examples above, your average bet is much more than your initial bet (using optimal strategy for both), so the EOR is much lower than HE, because you can divide the HE by your average bet to better evaluate your exposure.

You bet big on your pocket aces, and get to look at the entire board before you have to fold junk in UTH - and the junk might catch, so you have a shot at winning a bad hand. You can have an extra 4x up on those aces, where you can't really have a bet that wins at that high a percentage in craps (laying DP odds, you don't get 1:1 on any wins -not that you don't win true odds, but you don't get 1:1, which you do win on your 4x Aces, even though it's +ev)

You get a pocket pair of 6s or better in MsStud, you get to bet 9x (!) your initial bet, knowing you can't lose. If you get ace-face in BJ, you don't get to put up 9x more for the house to pay.

But to get those good EORs, you have to COMPLETELY trust the math and have a healthy bankroll, because the swings (volatility) are just vicious. People get scared of betting as aggressively as the strategy requires, and every chicken-out costs them money. They just don't see it. They think they're being smartly cautious, but instead they're leaving money on the table.

The games are DESIGNED to reward the aggressive bettor. Conversely, they're designed to attract people who just want to play poker and not lose too much money. That's the vast majority of those who sit down, in my experience, so the house is making WAAAY over the listed HE because of bad play overall. It's really an opportunity for the person who takes the time to learn how to play OS, because the casinos are making enough that the occasional good player isn't hurting them too much. Yet. And they do still have an edge in line with a good blackjack game or craps, so it's not a total player advantage.

As to MS. Look at my 2nd WoO quote, previous post. HE 4.91%. EOR 1.37% with Optimal Strategy.

social and geographic pressures are inescapable. If the Hell Cortez beckons but its a trip and a bad time of night, your desired HE remains the same but practical consideration force a change.

Poker players use the tem "tight" to refer to someone who does not ever get emotional and foolishly chase some pot.

Poker Variant table games offer 'corrective action'', that is if you clearly are overpaying someone at the table will likely offer some strategy tips to bring your play down to more reasonable levels of HE.

I prefer the ultra low HE bets in craps, but it is hard for me to stay standing, so I "pay" for a seat at a poker variant table, facing a higher HE due to the game and my lack of expertise. Many do this while blissfully unaware of option, my unawareness of strategy reflects laziness and memory deficits.

still the fact remains. none of this 12 percent slotmachine stuff for me. Line bets and odds and place the six and eight for me, until I need to sit down.

I would play anything with a negative house edge and nothing with a positive house edge. Any thoughts on whether zero is positive or negative?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Ok. Craps has no decision point where you can increase the amount of the bet. You bet, the dice roll, you win, lose, or the decision is pending. So the EOR is the same as the HE. You are already making the lowest HE bet on the table, and improving your return further with the odds bets.

If you look at the 2 quoted examples above, your average bet is much more than your initial bet (using optimal strategy for both), so the EOR is much lower than HE, because you can divide the HE by your average bet to better evaluate your exposure.

You bet big on your pocket aces, and get to look at the entire board before you have to fold junk in UTH - and the junk might catch, so you have a shot at winning a bad hand. You can have an extra 4x up on those aces, where you can't really have a bet that wins at that high a percentage in craps (laying DP odds, you don't get 1:1 on any wins -not that you don't win true odds, but you don't get 1:1, which you do win on your 4x Aces, even though it's +ev)

You get a pocket pair of 6s or better in MsStud, you get to bet 9x (!) your initial bet, knowing you can't lose. If you get ace-face in BJ, you don't get to put up 9x more for the house to pay.

But to get those good EORs, you have to COMPLETELY trust the math and have a healthy bankroll, because the swings (volatility) are just vicious. People get scared of betting as aggressively as the strategy requires, and every chicken-out costs them money. They just don't see it. They think they're being smartly cautious, but instead they're leaving money on the table.

The games are DESIGNED to reward the aggressive bettor. Conversely, they're designed to attract people who just want to play poker and not lose too much money. That's the vast majority of those who sit down, in my experience, so the house is making WAAAY over the listed HE because of bad play overall. It's really an opportunity for the person who takes the time to learn how to play OS, because the casinos are making enough that the occasional good player isn't hurting them too much. Yet. And they do still have an edge in line with a good blackjack game or craps, so it's not a total player advantage.

As to MS. Look at my 2nd WoO quote, previous post. HE 4.91%. EOR 1.37% with Optimal Strategy.

thx for the explanation!
so it looks like I need to learn UTH.

while I play craps on cruise ships, the craps table usually only has players after diner. (I don't roll since I play Dark.)
so I play at $15 bj (3:2) but it's .65% HE because h17, no surrender, csm.

so it looks like uth .5% HE is a better 2nd choice game to play,

Hard to say, because every now and then I'll drop some bills into a dollar or (occasionally) quarter slot (but not Megabucks), but other than that, it's 2.7%, and that's only if 8/5 is the best Jacks or Better quarter VP machine I can find - otherwise, I stick to Craps (pass & 3/4/5 odds on a $5 table, or 1.5/2/2.5 odds on a $10) or blackjack (strictly basic strategy, so as long as it's a 3-2, I'll play it).

Quote: 100xOdds

thx for the explanation!
so it looks like I need to learn UTH.

while I play craps on cruise ships, the craps table usually only has players after diner. (I don't roll since I play Dark.)
so I play at $15 bj (3:2) but it's .65% HE because h17, no surrender, csm.

so it looks like uth .5% HE is a better 2nd choice game to play,

I highly recommend UTH. It stays interesting, and with one session exception, I have always had the opportunity to get up several hundred dollars ahead.

But it's a roller coaster. You get on a streak to where you're cringing at the foolishness of putting your chips in the circles to play another hand, and then it starts running your way for a while.

As streaky as it is, it doesn't hold a candle to MS for volatility. I can't recommend that game. When you go card-dead in MS, you just hæmorrhage money. It makes me nuts. Other people swear by it, though.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I highly recommend UTH. It stays interesting, and with one session exception, I have always had the opportunity to get up several hundred dollars ahead.

But it's a roller coaster. You get on a streak to where you're cringing at the foolishness of putting your chips in the circles to play another hand, and then it starts running your way for a while.

I skimmed over the uth page at WoO.
there seems to be some side bets worth playing??

Quote: 100xOdds

I skimmed over the uth page at WoO.
there seems to be some side bets worth playing??

I very much enjoy the Trips bet. Pretty sure it's on all the UTH tables. But if you only want to play lowest -ev or better, it's (I think )3.57% HE for the best paytable ibe seen offered.

But you do get paid if it's in your 7 card hand unless you're playing in a player-banked casino (Florida, some Cali, probably some others). So you can lose to the dealer and still get paid. You get paid for trips or better on the board even if you fold* (there are a couple of houses who cheat you on that, but most follow it).

Anyway, it's a great sidebet. I've held 4s2h and gotten paid for a SF on that bet. That was fun!

More and more tables also have a progressive. I'm not impressed with it but then I've never hit it. Most of those only pay on your hand + the flop (first 5 cards) so there's a frustration factor. I'll play it if it's structured on all 7.

I'm surprised that no one has selected the 4-5% percent range. I KNOW there are a lot of football fanatics here, and I KNOW you guys love the point spread bets.

Quote: Gialmere

I'm surprised that no one has selected the 4-5% percent range. I KNOW there are a lot of football fanatics here, and I KNOW you guys love the point spread bets.

I will never give any more than 5 dollars or less per month on a roulette wheel ever in my life again.

Quote: Gialmere

I'm surprised that no one has selected the 4-5% percent range. I KNOW there are a lot of football fanatics here, and I KNOW you guys love the point spread bets.

If the guys who bet sports here thought they were giving up a 4-5% edge, most of them wouldn't bet them.

The short answer is,
They aren't.

Sports are a skilled bet. It's not a random mechanism, lIke cards or dice. Edges can be found (not by me, I suck at it). There's been a LOT of discussion, though not lately, on what to look for. It's all in the archives.

Light a candle, guys, in memory of steeldco. I'm convinced he was onto something.

Very good points about the Element of Risk [EoR], Babs, but I think you should not use Craps as an example of a game that does not have it. Seems to me the ability to take free odds to lower the HE fits exactlly the concept. In fact if the EoR is a mystery to someone that, however, plays Craps, with the comparison the light might come on about EoR.

On the other hand, the Wizard does not call on that example to explain EoR in his webpage on it, nor anywhere on any webpage about Craps have I seen free odds explained as EoR. So maybe I am wrong - can someone explain the difference?

I can think of one difference which, IMO, does not disqualify it. In UTH, the correct play of additional bet when strategy calls for it is not disputed, however, in Craps, taking free odds as correct strategy is frequently disputed.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Light a candle, guys, in memory of steeldco. I'm convinced he was onto something.

Did he pass away, or get banned, or just stopped posting?

I voted -1 to 0, but I include craps line bets with at least 345x odds in that category. Combined house edge under 1%.

Not to say I've never played worse games than that, but it's rare. At a very dark time on my last Vegas trip I played a slot machine at Ellis Island for a couple hours 😬😬😬. I finished running some free play from ACG or LVA, and was mentally drained from a big loss in a high count at my last counting session. Pretty standard stuff if you're counting, I was just beat. Wanted to relax with a drink and just hammer that spin button.

Quote: AcesAndEights

Did he pass away, or get banned, or just stopped posting?

steelco passed away :(

Quote: odiousgambit

Very good points about the Element of Risk [EoR], Babs, but I think you should not use Craps as an example of a game that does not have it. Seems to me the ability to take free odds to lower the HE fits exactlly the concept. In fact if the EoR is a mystery to someone that, however, plays Craps, with the comparison the light might come on about EoR.

On the other hand, the Wizard does not call on that example to explain EoR in his webpage on it, nor anywhere on any webpage about Craps have I seen free odds explained as EoR. So maybe I am wrong - can someone explain the difference?

I can think of one difference which, IMO, does not disqualify it. In UTH, the correct play of additional bet when strategy calls for it is not disputed, however, in Craps, taking free odds as correct strategy is frequently disputed.

I think your point is well taken, and it occurred to me, too, when I was trying to discuss the concept above. I'm not sure there IS a significant difference, except maybe that free odds are voluntary and can be removed after placing them in craps before any subsequent roll (I think).

But the basic strategy in the EOR card games, it's MANDATORY that you risk the increased amounts, and once placed, you are committed to the result, in order to achieve the lowest HE. Any move you make, whether too aggressive or too cautious, that's not in line with the math, increases the HE over time.

In craps, (trying not to beat a dead horse), you ALWAYS face the same odds and HE on your base bet. That doesn't change no matter how many free odds you piggyback onto it. The effective result is to lower your overall exposure to HE by total percentage. But the HE doesn't change.

In contrast, the HE DOES change for those games based on your strategy choices. The most obvious one on UTH is, betting 3x when the strategy calls for 4x. A LOT of people do that, thinking they're being prudent.

What they don't understand is, the Blind bet is ALWAYS -ev (at this starting point), and is mandatory. The Play bet is often +ev, and is designed to balance the Blind bet. So a player MUST maximize the +ev Play bet at every opportunity.

That one move alone, with otherwise perfect play, changes the HE to 9.66%!! And people do it ALL the time. Still, better than checking something that should be bet 4x.

See this post (below) for the math on both options. And light a candle for the author, PaiGowDan.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/math/25192-ultimate-texas-hold-em/#post516306

I'll play a game with ANY house edge, as long as I can play with an advantage. :)

Quote: RS

I'll play a game with ANY house edge, as long as I can play with an advantage. :)

Oh voy are you Nathan? That's what Kentry would say.DD

Quote: onenickelmiracle

Oh voy are you Nathan? That's what Kentry would say.DD

Wait what's wrong with what I said?

Quote: RS

Wait what's wrong with what I said?

Show Spoiler

Yes, I know, I ruined a perfectly good chance to write a sentence where all words start with the letter "W", shame on me for not doing so.

You we're trying to sound like an AP.

DD

Quote: terapined

Lowroller about to hit Vegas
I know Pai Gow poker has a huge casino edge but its a real fun game and I plan on playing a little at NYNY

Actually not true. If you stay away from the side bets and the progressive bets, Pai Gow poker is not too bad. You are either paying a 5% commission on all wins, which happen less than 25% of the time (50% or so are pushes) or there is some type of mechanism to counter the commission.

According to the Wizard, paying commission equates to 1.46%. No Commission games such as Face Up Pai Gow Poker have about a 1.60% house edge, again according to the Wiz.

Quote: RS

I'll play a game with ANY house edge, as long as I can play with an advantage. :)

Are these those magical games that have both a house advantage and a player advantage? Do you also drive to the casino on your perpetual motion machine and eat the prime rib dinner that makes you lose weight?

Quote: TomG

Are these those magical games that have both a house advantage and a player advantage? Do you also drive to the casino on your perpetual motion machine and eat the prime rib dinner that makes you lose weight?

Not sure if sarcasm, but in case it’s not..... Blackjack has a house edge but I can still play it with an advantage. The same applies to just about every other game in a casino.