HeyMrDJ
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August 14th, 2018 at 2:41:10 AM permalink
We don't have this game much in the UK yet, a few casinos have it.
I was playing recently and a few players were just horrible at it, only making a 3x raise. And then only making it with monster hands, like big aces or big pairs. The only person raising any ace was me. They were often amazed at some of the plays I was making.

My question is this, firstly, if you only ever make the 3x raise, but use the correct strategy, what does this do the house edge?

If you only made the 3x raise with TT+ and ATs+, and only made the 4x raise with AA, AK, KK, QQ, what does that do to the house edge?

And can we quantify that mistake to something they might understand? Such as, not raising there is like hitting a hard 18 vs a Ten, or its like playing roulette with 6 zeros...

I am very aware of the fact that horrible plays like this enable this game to survive, but sometimes I just want to try and educate people a bit more.
Guess who peed in my Cheerios? Romes did...
Mosca
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August 14th, 2018 at 4:48:17 AM permalink
No math answers, but I will tell you from experience that people donít want to be educated on UTH. What will happen is they will start saying, ďSee? I told you so!Ē when you 4x AK suited and draw a blank, and the dealer pairs a 4.

Just tell them itís your birthday and you are feeling lucky.
NO KILL I
beachbumbabs
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August 14th, 2018 at 5:25:10 AM permalink
In one of the other UTH threads, a math guy (think it was Wizard) said, if you bet 3x when you should bet 4x, and otherwise play perfectly, the HE is approximately 7%, up from approximately 2%.

That's before they don't bet 4x at all when they should. I see it everywhere.

I tell people who ask things like...

The Play bet is your friend. Scared money can't win this game. You have to be aggressive, not conservative, because the Blind bet is always working against you. The Play bet balances off the Blind bet.

I can think of 3 people out of several.hundred I've sat with in the last few years who knew any strategy. I can think of 3 more who asked me what my strategy was and then played it.

I tell them, and others who ask but get scared off by the size of the bet, "4x JTo or better. All pairs except deuces. All aces. All K5 or better. And go from there." Just to make it simple. And, "if it's worth a 3x bet, it's worth a 4x bet, every time."

But mostly I've given up volunteering comments.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Mosca
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beachbumbabs
August 14th, 2018 at 5:40:54 AM permalink
And the reason for this is that no one brings a big enough bankroll to the game. Recreational players are used to seeing a $5 minimum and taking a hundred or two out of their pocket. At UTH, a 4x bet means you have a minimum of $30 on the table, and more likely $35 if you are playing the trips. So even $500 isnít enough bank; you need at least a couple grand, and you will need to sit for several hours.

It forces you to think you are overbetting to get the most out of it. Just say itís your birthday.
NO KILL I
miplet
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August 14th, 2018 at 3:26:09 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

In one of the other UTH threads, a math guy (think it was Wizard) said, if you bet 3x when you should bet 4x, and otherwise play perfectly, the HE is approximately 7%, up from approximately 2%.

That's before they don't bet 4x at all when they should. I see it everywhere.


According to this post, it's 9.66%.
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beachbumbabs
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August 14th, 2018 at 4:52:24 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

According to this post, it's 9.66%.



Thanks, Miplet. So it's not about 7%, it's about 7% MORE.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
HeyMrDJ
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August 15th, 2018 at 1:00:59 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: miplet

According to this post, it's 9.66%.



Thanks, Miplet. So it's not about 7%, it's about 7% MORE.



Ouch, so something close to a 4 zero roulette wheel.... Wowzers
Guess who peed in my Cheerios? Romes did...
Joeman
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August 15th, 2018 at 5:46:29 AM permalink
Quote: miplet

According to this post, it's 9.66%.

Yikes!

I wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea how the casino rates UTH? If you are playing $5 blind/ante what do they consider your average bet to be? What HE do they assume for comp calculations?
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
Vegasrider
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August 15th, 2018 at 7:51:20 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs



I can think of 3 people out of several.hundred I've sat with in the last few years who knew any strategy. I can think of 3 more who asked me what my strategy was and then played it.

.



I still have not witnessed a player playing perfect or close to perfect strategy besides myself. I've actually had the entire table turn their hand over and I told them what to do, everyone won. It's a huge edge when you get to see what cards has has been dealt. But I stop doing that, actually casino told me to refrain helping the entire table. Advice is still allowed based on individual inquire. Some guy was betting $60 a hand and was dealt pocket 9's. He was going to check it and I told him it's a 4X bet. He took my advice and put out $240. The board was A-A-J-J-5, oops! LOL,,, his 9 high was good!

This is why I wish I could bank this game, players are horrible. They have no clue playing heads up poker. I still have to tweak my betting range. Flat betting every hand doesn't accomplish much, I'm still experimenting when I need to keep pressing. I do not play trips!
beachbumbabs
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August 15th, 2018 at 10:41:36 AM permalink
Quote: Joeman

Quote: miplet

According to this post, it's 9.66%.

Yikes!

I wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. Out of curiosity, does anyone have an idea how the casino rates UTH? If you are playing $5 blind/ante what do they consider your average bet to be? What HE do they assume for comp calculations?



Harrahs LV rates a $10 ante, $5 trips as $45 a hand. Thats the only one who's told me.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
offTopic
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August 19th, 2018 at 7:06:42 PM permalink
Quote: Vegasrider

I still have not witnessed a player playing perfect or close to perfect strategy besides myself. I've actually had the entire table turn their hand over and I told them what to do, everyone won. It's a huge edge when you get to see what cards has has been dealt. But I stop doing that, actually casino told me to refrain helping the entire table. Advice is still allowed based on individual inquire. Some guy was betting $60 a hand and was dealt pocket 9's. He was going to check it and I told him it's a 4X bet. He took my advice and put out $240. The board was A-A-J-J-5, oops! LOL,,, his 9 high was good!

This is why I wish I could bank this game, players are horrible. They have no clue playing heads up poker. I still have to tweak my betting range. Flat betting every hand doesn't accomplish much, I'm still experimenting when I need to keep pressing. I do not play trips!



Be careful what you wish for - player banking is allowed in California and about 5 years ago I saw a guy banking the one UTH table they had in the casino. He had to sit with enough chips in front of him to fade all the potential payouts (this place also has the 10,000-1 two-way bad beat) and ended up getting robbed at gunpoint as he was returning to his hotel.

https://abc7news.com/archive/9361560/
Commish
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August 20th, 2018 at 8:21:41 PM permalink
A few comments here. There are only 2 times when you should bet 3x. First is when that is all the chips you have left and the second is never. The blind bet is a 31% loser and the ante is 16%. You need to bet 4x often to make up the difference.
Several casinos have told me your average wager is the ante, the blind and the trips bet added together.
If you are playing good strategy why would you ever make a second wager (trips) that was not as good as your first?
Vegasrider
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August 20th, 2018 at 8:45:15 PM permalink
Quote: offTopic

Be careful what you wish for - player banking is allowed in California and about 5 years ago I saw a guy banking the one UTH table they had in the casino. He had to sit with enough chips in front of him to fade all the potential payouts (this place also has the 10,000-1 two-way bad beat) and ended up getting robbed at gunpoint as he was returning to his hotel.

https://abc7news.com/archive/9361560/



That's California, the worst of the worst when it comes to the US. That's another country as far as I'm concerned.
Wizard
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August 20th, 2018 at 8:53:21 PM permalink
For much the same reason you never double for less in blackjack, you never make a 3x raise. Go the full 4x or check.
ďExtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.Ē -- Carl Sagan
98Clubs
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August 23rd, 2018 at 3:14:56 PM permalink
I've been reading other threaads about UTH, and see that there is the "Play Bet Required" scam by some Houses.

IMHO such scams are a violation of liscense, as is the "1 or 2 card from the hand" requirement (not yet seen by me, but heresay from others) that has/will take its place. /MHO

98
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August 23rd, 2018 at 4:44:56 PM permalink
Quote: 98Clubs

I've been reading other threaads about UTH, and see that there is the "Play Bet Required" scam by some Houses.

IMHO such scams are a violation of liscense, as is the "1 or 2 card from the hand" requirement (not yet seen by me, but heresay from others) that has/will take its place. /MHO

98



I agree it's a scam, and so does SHFL, the distributor, last I heard. The Trips bet stands alone, except you have to bet the ante/blind to bet it optionally. But it has its own house edge and there's no excuse beyond pumping up the HE of the main game thru greed.

You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).
Last edited by: beachbumbabs on Aug 24, 2018
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Commish
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August 23rd, 2018 at 10:06:05 PM permalink
I have played UTH in dozens of casinos all over the world for the last 9 1/2 years. I have only seen one place as well where you had to stay in the hand in order to cash n the trips. I think it was on a cruise ship. Everywhere else it was a completely separate wager and you could fold the hand and collect the trips. The trips bet still remains as a lesser bet than the hand itself which is why I have never made a trips bet.
jmills
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October 5th, 2018 at 3:31:30 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

The Trips bet stands alone, except you have to bet the ante/blind to bet it optionally. But it has its own house edge and there's no excuse beyond pumping up the HE of the main game thru greed.

You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).



I did play somewhere recently where you could just make the trips bet, like only betting pair plus in 3CP.
Deucekies
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October 6th, 2018 at 1:30:50 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs



You should be able to fold your main hand and win the trips separately when it's on the board. I only know one place I play that does that (require the Play bet to collect Trips).



Where I used to work, we allowed you to fold and collect trips if it was on the board, but if one of your cards played for it, you had to call to get it. Funny thing is if one of your cards plays, mathematically you should be calling anyway.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
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October 6th, 2018 at 8:53:25 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Where I used to work, we allowed you to fold and collect trips if it was on the board, but if one of your cards played for it, you had to call to get it. Funny thing is if one of your cards plays, mathematically you should be calling anyway.



Yeah, I would say that's a weird rule. Like if the board has trips Qs with a 5 2 ,and you have a 6 4, you should fold, even though the 6 plays. The dealer is going to win that hand 99+% of the time. Can't imagine not being paid if you didn't declare the 6. Cards talk.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
unJon
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October 6th, 2018 at 9:42:13 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Yeah, I would say that's a weird rule. Like if the board has trips Qs with a 5 2 ,and you have a 6 4, you should fold, even though the 6 plays. The dealer is going to win that hand 99+% of the time. Can't imagine not being paid if you didn't declare the 6. Cards talk.

I think he meant you wouldnít get trips bonus if board had QQ and you folded a Q in your hand. Since that should never happen, Iím not sure why itís a rule. So now Iím just confused.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
beachbumbabs
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October 6th, 2018 at 10:13:40 AM permalink
I've played several places where, if you bet the trips and folded, they would not put the cards in the burn rack. They would tuck them under the Trips and verify you weren't folding a winner when they went back around on pays.

I actually think that's the most correct way to deal it, but it does take extra time against the HPH, so most places, you'd better know what you have. Fold is flod. I've stopped someone next to me from folding a straight or flush they didn't see after the river several times. Usually drunks, but not always.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FleaStiff
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October 6th, 2018 at 12:01:21 PM permalink
Quote: Joeman

I wonder what the casino's edge would be overall. Considering the awful play I've seen at the tables, I could easily see it in the double digits. What HE do they assume for comp calculations?

I don't know the math but the casino's computers know all about that hold and drop stuff and from the rate at which the free drinks come around, I think the casino values its UTH players.
Deucekies
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October 7th, 2018 at 7:46:40 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

I think he meant you wouldnít get trips bonus if board had QQ and you folded a Q in your hand. Since that should never happen, Iím not sure why itís a rule. So now Iím just confused.



This is indeed what I meant. You're right that it's a pointless rule, and I tried to make that point to my bosses, to no avail.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
Deucekies
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October 7th, 2018 at 7:49:06 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I've stopped someone next to me from folding a straight or flush they didn't see after the river several times. Usually drunks, but not always.



One time I was betting $50/$50/$50, and tried to fold a flush I didn't know I had. The dealer had peeked at my cards and told me to look again. You better believe he got a $100 tip.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
beachbumbabs
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October 7th, 2018 at 7:58:21 PM permalink
I was playing a month or so ago, and a player on the other side of the table folded. They were really bad at the game and had lost a lot of money already. As the dealer burned the cards, he fanned them to himself (I was at 1st base and saw them, too) and he said, "you folded a straight" to the player.

He hadn't yet put them in the rack, and I said, "well, why not correct the mistake and give them back?" And he just shrugged and said, "he folded". I was flabbergasted, really. It wasn't a rude table, the person was obviously new to the game, and they wouldn't let the cards talk? It put me off enough I cashed in and left the table.

Curious what the rest of you think about it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FleaStiff
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October 7th, 2018 at 9:04:27 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Curious what the rest of you think about it.

I'll admit that at some point there has to be finality, but as you said the cards were not yet in the discard rack and there is no question that the dealer said 'you folded a straight' to him for a reason.

Bad day? Dealer has sore feet does he? No tokes?

He is supposed to protect the game, not the casino's money.

New player, a bit too much to drink perhaps. Maybe the dealer put in for a reward for that move?
Deucekies
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October 7th, 2018 at 11:56:47 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I was playing a month or so ago, and a player on the other side of the table folded. They were really bad at the game and had lost a lot of money already. As the dealer burned the cards, he fanned them to himself (I was at 1st base and saw them, too) and he said, "you folded a straight" to the player.

He hadn't yet put them in the rack, and I said, "well, why not correct the mistake and give them back?" And he just shrugged and said, "he folded". I was flabbergasted, really. It wasn't a rude table, the person was obviously new to the game, and they wouldn't let the cards talk? It put me off enough I cashed in and left the table.

Curious what the rest of you think about it.



If the dealer is going to look at the cards, he should be in a position to let the player have them back.

Chances are the house rule was "A fold is a fold", and the dealer risked a write-up if he coached the player. If that's the case, he shouldn't be peeking.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
FleaStiff
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October 8th, 2018 at 4:43:27 AM permalink
Quote: Deucekies

Chances are the house rule was "A fold is a fold", and the dealer risked a write-up

The casino flabbergasted an experienced player who was so put off by it that she immediately cashed out and left that table. So the casino is the one at risk, not the dealer. That right there defines the dealer's actions as wrong.
Deucekies
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October 10th, 2018 at 3:20:23 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The casino flabbergasted an experienced player who was so put off by it that she immediately cashed out and left that table. So the casino is the one at risk, not the dealer. That right there defines the dealer's actions as wrong.



Agreed, and that's what I believe I said. If the dealer didn't peek and say something to the player, she never would have known. He should have taken the cards and put them in the muck where they belonged without any comment.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm

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