Poll

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1 vote (20%)
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1 vote (20%)
1 vote (20%)
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1 vote (20%)

5 members have voted

Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 8:51:36 AM permalink
Saigon 5 Card comes to us via way of Vietnam and Cambodia, where it is known as Ngau Ham. The game has been broached on a couple other old threads, but never went far, so forgive me for making a new thread for it. I've started on a new page for Saigon 5 Card. So far, I've only taken it through the rules, and I'm not sure I have those completely correct. Specifically, I don't know if the player can use any two cards for the Pot bet or the two cards as used in the Ante bet.

Please have a look at my new page. As always, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections. Analysis coming soon.

The question for the poll is would you play Saigon 5 Card?

"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:01:31 AM permalink
There doesn't seem to be any real strategy to this game - since the 3-card hand must be a multiple of 10, your 2-card hand value is predetermined by your five cards.
TigerWu
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:13:53 AM permalink
I've played the tile version of this game before and thought it was pretty fun.

I would probably play the card version in a casino for low stakes and if the house edge didn't suck.
Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:14:10 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

There doesn't seem to be any real strategy to this game - since the 3-card hand must be a multiple of 10, your 2-card hand value is predetermined by your five cards.



I agree. I don't know if the player even has to set a hand or if the dealer does it. Note that I didn't say whether the cards are dealt face up or down because I don't know and it doesn't matter anyway.

Who is our man, or woman, in Tampa? Cambodia too, for that matter.
Last edited by: Wizard on Jun 2, 2018
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:56:43 AM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

I would probably play the card version in a casino for low stakes and if the house edge didn't suck.


I'm not getting a very high house edge at all. After all, except for the "player wins with a 5 is paid at 1-2" rule, aren't the rules for the player and dealer the same?

The only house edge appears to be 1/2 of the bets when the player wins with a 5 - and how often does that happen?
When I do some quick simulation, I get that it happens only about 1 out of every 25 hands, which would be a house edge of about 2%.

In fact, when I do a count from a full deck, I get that only about 6.7% of the hands have a value of 5.
Last edited by: ThatDonGuy on Jun 2, 2018
beachbumbabs
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June 2nd, 2018 at 11:24:14 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I agree. I don't know if the player even has to set a hand or if the dealer does it. Note I didn't say if cards are dealt face up or down because I don't know and it doesn't matter anyway?

Who is our man, or woman, in Tampa? Cambodia too, for that matter.



terapined has said before he's in/near tampa. Cambodia, NokTang, perhaps?
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
terapined
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June 2nd, 2018 at 12:58:52 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

terapined has said before he's in/near tampa. Cambodia, NokTang, perhaps?



I'll stop by the Tampa Hard Rock in a few days and report back what I find about this game
Its not my favorite casino but it is the closest to me.
It does not surprise me the game is there
The casino really tries hard to attract the Asian market
Authentic Chinese food and a section of the casino dedicated just to Asians with Pai Gow tiles and other Asian games
I actually go there sometimes not to gamble but for the real Chinese food
Hmm, sounds like I will be able to satisfy my hunger for some genuine Asian food in a few days :-)
Last edited by: terapined on Jun 2, 2018
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
TigerWu
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June 2nd, 2018 at 1:47:39 PM permalink
Quote: terapined


Authentic Chinese food and a section of the casino dedicated just to Asians with Pai Gow tiles and other Asian games



I'm so jealous... haha...

I'm actually kind of surprised more casinos don't cater to Asian demographics. Where I live there's a very large Vietnamese population, but the casinos are 100% geared to "round eyes" like me. Last time I checked the casino near my house had ONE baccarat table.
Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 2:06:14 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

I'll stop by the Tampa Hard Rock in a few days and report back what I find about this game



Thanks T! Some more back and forth on this hear and I think we'll have a succinct list of questions that need answering for you.

Here is a progress report. This is a count of scores of all possible combinations of 5 cards out of 53. Can anyone confirm or deny? So much of game programming is scoring a hand accurately.

Points Combinations Probability
0 - 0.000000
1 172,352 0.060060
2 176,856 0.061629
3 179,352 0.062499
4 175,710 0.061230
5 192,112 0.066945
6 181,184 0.063137
7 197,208 0.068721
8 219,552 0.076507
9 229,084 0.079829
10 246,608 0.085936
Does not qualify 899,667 0.313507


Note: Corrected 6/4/18
Last edited by: Wizard on Jun 4, 2018
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
terapined
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June 2nd, 2018 at 4:06:09 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Specifically, I don't know if the player can use any two cards for the Pot bet or the two cards as used in the Ante bet.



I would imagine whatever 2 cards were used to determine the winner after qualifying are also used to determine the pot bet
I can see why this game may be popular. If there are a lot a players a full table the pot bet is just among players and its winner take all which would be real fun to win. A bet among players with no casino edge or commission:-) .
Where did the picture come from? Somewhere I can play this for free on the internet?
Dealt some hands to myself and the dealer for practice
No strategy I can see :-(
If you qualify, its going to be either 10, 20 30. Looks slim that you could qualify for 2 numbers such as 10 or 20 then have a decision.
Its pretty much if you qualify or not
If I find an empty table, I only have to make 1 bet instead of 2? Due the pot bet is a players only bet right?
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 4:28:34 PM permalink
Okay guys, I think this is the first published analysis of Saigon 5 Card. Hopefully it's right. What'd'ya think?

Event Pays Count Probability Return
Both don't qualify 0 481,649,866,016 0.098020 0.000000
Player 1 wins with 1 1 9,733,909,104 0.001981 0.001981
Player 1 wins with 2 1 10,706,973,088 0.002179 0.002179
Player 1 wins with 3 1 16,528,229,168 0.003364 0.003364
Player 1 wins with 4 1 28,676,031,164 0.005836 0.005836
Player 1 wins with 5 0.50 58,484,390,752 0.011902 0.005951
Player 1 wins with 6 1 84,533,343,740 0.017203 0.017203
Player 1 wins with 7 1 138,467,802,336 0.028180 0.028180
Player 1 wins with 8 1 203,945,516,176 0.041505 0.041505
Player 1 wins with 9 1 326,602,760,752 0.066467 0.066467
Player 1 wins with 10 1 1,086,260,155,840 0.221064 0.221064
Player 1 outscored -1 905,085,575,368 0.184194 -0.184194
Player 1 does not qualify -1 1,058,853,536,752 0.215487 -0.215487
Tie 0 504,245,013,984 0.102619 0.000000
Total 4,913,773,104,240 1.000000 -0.005951


I have to respect any game with a house edge of only 0.60%.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
beachbumbabs
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June 2nd, 2018 at 7:15:02 PM permalink
On your WoO page, Rule 10 says,

Quote:

For purposes of the Bonus bet, aces are partially wild. They can be used to complete a straight, flush, straight flush, or royal flush. Otherwise they count as an ace. I know of two pay tables as shown below.



Is that correct, that aces do that? Or is it a typo and the first bolded aces should be joker?

Be fun to have 5 wild cards in a deck, if so. I would enjoy that.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gordonm888
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June 2nd, 2018 at 7:31:25 PM permalink
Wiz, do you have any way to retrieve stats on Player 1 hands that have a joker?

How often do hands with a joker qualify?

How often do hands with a Joker Win 1? Win 0.5? Win 0 (Tie + Both DNQ)? Lose -1?
**********************************
Mathematically this is an interesting game, but from a gameplay point of view it is lame.

- All bets are before any cards are dealt.
- Any 5 card combination will either Not Qualify or have one unique 2 card total.*

So, the entire game is just an elaborate way of assigning a "rank" to a 5 card hand that is completely different than the flush, straight and pairing of conventional poker. But otherwise it is 5 card stud with only one bet -and the one bet is before any cards are dealt.

*Edit: Actually this is not true. Some hands with a joker can be set in different ways such that the two card hand has different point totals. Consider: (Joker) -7-7-6-5. It can be set with 6-5 on top or with 7-7 on top. But certainly all 5 cards hands have one unique maximum 2 card total.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 2, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:21:49 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Is that correct, that aces do that? Or is it a typo and the first bolded aces should be joker?



Good catch; thanks. I did mean a joker.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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June 2nd, 2018 at 9:28:35 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Wiz, do you have any way to retrieve stats on Player 1 hands that have a joker?



I did not implicitly calculate joker hands separately. Some coding tweaks and I could tell you but I'm sure having a joker is powerful.

Quote:

So, the entire game is just an elaborate way of assigning a "rank" to a 5 card hand that is completely different than the flush, straight and pairing of conventional poker. But otherwise it is 5 card stud with only one bet -and the one bet is before any cards are dealt.

*Edit: Actually this is not true. Some hands with a joker can be set in different ways such that the two card hand has different point totals. Consider: (Joker) -7-7-6-5. It can be set with 6-5 on top or with 7-7 on top. But certainly all 5 cards hands have one unique maximum 2 card total.



I agree this would otherwise* get laughed out of most casinos, but I think this is an old Vietnamese game that has survived the test of time. The way I coded it was to store the score of every possible set of 5 ranks in an array. If there was a joker, it scored it as both 3, 6, and 9 points, and went with the way that maximized the hand value.

* Is this a split infinitive?
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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June 3rd, 2018 at 11:58:52 AM permalink
An analysis has been posted to my page on Saigon 5 Card.

As always, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
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June 3rd, 2018 at 5:15:59 PM permalink
Here's a puzzler I'm trying to work in my head:

Can you identify a Saigon 5 Card Poker hand which has a joker and no pairs (a joker and four different ranks) and does not qualify?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
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June 3rd, 2018 at 5:30:12 PM permalink
W,2,5,T, K
W, 5,8,T, K (both any 2 non-pair tens)
W, 3, 5, T K
W, 2,3, T, K
W, 3, 9, T K
W, 6, 9, T, K
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
gordonm888
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June 3rd, 2018 at 5:38:49 PM permalink
Babs is correct, for the way that I stated the problem

I realized after I posted the problem, that I had made the mistake of thinking that any two cards with a value of 10 were a pair. It turns out that the problem is easy to solve when there are two cards with the same amount of points.

So let me ask it this way:

Can you identify a Saigon 5-card hand with a joker and 4 cards of different point values that Does Not Qualify? That is, 5 cards that Do Not Qualify consisting of a Joker and 4 different ranks if you count T-K as a single rank?
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
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June 3rd, 2018 at 5:43:01 PM permalink

W, 2, 3, 6, T
W, A,2,3,4
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
ThatDonGuy
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June 3rd, 2018 at 6:14:38 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs


W, 2, 3, 6, T
W, A,2,3,4



Doesn't W, A, 2, 3, 4 qualify with (6)-A-3 / 2-4?


A quick way to determine your hand:

If you have no joker, it's easy - add up the points of all five cards, and if any pair adds up to the corresponding "modulo 10" value, use that hand. It does not matter if there are multiple ways to make a qualifying hand, as all of the 2-card hands will have the same value.

If you have a joker, it's a little more complicated. It is the highest of:
(a) Add up the points of the other four cards, and if any one card has the sum's "modulo 10" value, use that card and the joker value that gives you the highest two-card total (3, if your card is 5-7; 6, if it is 2-4; 9, if it is anything else)
(b) For each pair of non-joker cards, if they add up to 4, 7, 11, 14, or 17, use the value of the other two cards (for example, with Joker-2-3-5-6, (3)-2-5/3-6 is worth 9, and (9)-5-6/2-3 is worth 5.
gordonm888
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June 3rd, 2018 at 6:32:07 PM permalink
Bab's first answer is correct. One of only two correct answers I have been able to find so far (but I have not been using a spreadsheet or computer.) Congrats !

I believe Bab's 2nd answer is not correct.
Bab's 2nd answer was (W,A,2,3,4) but, unfortunately, 4+3+W =10


This is harder than it looks.

Edit: I believe I have found 5 correct answers (without using a computer) by employing a mathematical insight.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 3, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
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June 3rd, 2018 at 6:40:38 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Bab's first answer is correct. One of only two correct answers I have been able to find so far (but I have not been using a spreadsheet or computer.) Congrats !

I believe Bab's 2nd answer is not correct.

Bab's 2nd answer was (W,A,2,3,4) but, unfortunately, 4+3+W =10


This is harder than it looks.



Yeah, darn. (6)A3 does qualify.

Added that one too fast. Was trying to find one specific with an Ace in it. Hmmm.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
ThatDonGuy
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beachbumbabs
June 3rd, 2018 at 7:03:35 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Added that one too fast. Was trying to find one specific with an Ace in it. Hmmm.


There is only one - Joker, A, 2, 4, 8

Note that any hand with Joker, Ace, and any of 3, 6, or 10 can qualify (with (6)-A-3, (3)-A-6, and (9)-A-10, respectively).
This leaves 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 as the possible cards that can be included; there are (6)C(3) = 20 such hands.

A 2 4 5 qualifies with (3)-2-5
A 2 4 7 qualifies with (9)-4-7
A 2 4 8 does not qualify
A 2 4 9 qualifies with (9)-2-9
A 2 5 7 qualifies with A-2-7
A 2 5 8 qualifies with (3)-2-5
A 2 5 9 qualifies with (3)-2-5
A 2 7 8 qualifies with A-2-7
A 2 7 9 qualifies with A-2-7
A 2 8 9 qualifies with (3)-8-9
A 4 5 7 qualifies with A-4-5
A 4 5 8 qualifies with A-4-5
A 4 5 9 qualifies with A-4-5
A 4 7 8 qualifies with (9)-4-7
A 4 7 9 qualifies with 4-7-9
A 4 8 9 qualifies with (3)-8-9
A 5 7 8 qualifies with 5-7-8
A 5 7 9 qualifies with (6)-5-7
A 5 8 9 qualifies with (3)-8-9
A 7 8 9 qualifies with (3)-8-9

gordonm888
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June 3rd, 2018 at 9:29:42 PM permalink
I had not found the solution that ThatDonGuy came up with. Congrats to Don.



Here's the solutions that I did in my head:

W + any 4 of the following 5 cards: 2,3,6,9,10
W,2,3,6,9
W,2,3,6,10 (Bab's solution)
W,2,3,9,10
W,2,6,9,10
W,3,6,9,10

My thoughts went like this: we want to avoid any 3 cards that sum to 10 or 20. 10 is 1mod(3) and 20 is 2mod(3).

Now the wild card is 3,6, or 9 so it is always 0mod(3). If the other cards are also of the form 0mod(3) then they (combined with the wild card) can only sum to a total that is 0mod(3) and thus cannot be combined in any way to make a sum of 10 or 20. So, I started with W,3,6,9 because 3,6 and 9 are all 0mod(3). But I needed a fifth card so, by inspection, I determined that W,3,6,9,2 and W,3,6,9,10 were the only possibilities that worked. And then I realized that 2+10=12 and 12 is also 0mod(3).

From there, it was a short leap to see that any 4 numbers of the set (2,3,6,9,10) could be combined with a Joker and not qualify.

Of course, none of that deduction indicates that other solutions could not exist, but I suspected that those 5 solutions were all there were. ThatDonGuy has found an additional solution. And maybe there are more.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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June 4th, 2018 at 8:56:41 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888


W + any 4 of the following 5 cards: 2,3,6,9,10
W,2,3,6,9
W,2,3,6,10 (Bab's solution)
W,2,3,9,10
W,2,6,9,10
W,3,6,9,10


I think those with W29 would add up to 20. It seems you need to numbers
(a) Two of them don't add up to 10x+1, 10x+4, 10x+7 or
(b) obviously any three (not the joker) to 10x.

The method I've tried runs as follows.
If your first card is a 10 then you can't have a second card that is 1 4 or 7 (as this with the joker would qualify).
Use a similar idea for all the other possible starting cards.
10147
9258
8369
74 10
6158
5269
43710
3148
2 59
13610

Then consider all starting 2-cards 10 9, 10 8, 10 6, 10 5, 9 7.....
This gives a list of numbers which can't be considered.
10 9 (1 4 7 2 5 8) leaving 10 9 6 3 as possible.
10 8 (1 4 7 3 6 9) leaving 10 8 5 2 - but W25 adds up to 10 (this can be seen by seeing whether any numbers rejected by using 5 then 2 are already in the numbers used).
Continue this idea gives
10 9 6 3
10 6 3 2
9 7 6 3
8 4 2 1
7 6 3 2
edit - removed one erroneous entry 8541 as 541 add up to 10!
Last edited by: charliepatrick on Jun 4, 2018
Wizard
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June 4th, 2018 at 9:31:23 AM permalink
These come by way of my program. If I'm missing any, I must have a programming error.


Joker1111
Joker1112
Joker1114
Joker1115
Joker1117
Joker1119
Joker1124
Joker1144
Joker1149
Joker1155
Joker1157
Joker1179
Joker1199
Joker1248
Joker1288
Joker1444
Joker1448
Joker1449
Joker1499
Joker1555
Joker1557
Joker1558
Joker1588
Joker1788
Joker1799
Joker1888
Joker1999
Joker2333
Joker2336
Joker2337
Joker23310
Joker2366
Joker2367
Joker23610
Joker231010
Joker2466
Joker2666
Joker2667
Joker26610
Joker261010
Joker2788
Joker2888
Joker3333
Joker3335
Joker3336
Joker3337
Joker3339
Joker33310
Joker3355
Joker3357
Joker33510
Joker3366
Joker3367
Joker3369
Joker33610
Joker3379
Joker3399
Joker33910
Joker331010
Joker3555
Joker3557
Joker351010
Joker3666
Joker3667
Joker3669
Joker36610
Joker3679
Joker3699
Joker36910
Joker361010
Joker3799
Joker3999
Joker39910
Joker391010
Joker4444
Joker4445
Joker4446
Joker4448
Joker4449
Joker4455
Joker4458
Joker4466
Joker4469
Joker4499
Joker4555
Joker4558
Joker4666
Joker4669
Joker4699
Joker4999
Joker5555
Joker5557
Joker5558
Joker5588
Joker5888
Joker58810
Joker581010
Joker6666
Joker6667
Joker6669
Joker66610
Joker6679
Joker6699
Joker66910
Joker661010
Joker6799
Joker6999
Joker69910
Joker691010
Joker7888
Joker7999
Joker8888
Joker88810
Joker881010
Joker9999
Joker99910
Joker991010



Joker1248
Joker2367
Joker23610
Joker3679
Joker36910
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
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June 4th, 2018 at 10:04:07 AM permalink
Ah, Charlie and Wiz are both right. Three of my solutions were in error because I didn't notice that any five cards with a W,2,9 in it will qualify.

Based on their list, an unexpected conclusion is that if your hand has a Joker and a five and no duplicate ranks, the hand will always qualify (will always have 3 cards that add up to either 10 or 20.)

There is a weird mathematics here that probably no one has ever looked at. Of course, it is probably utterly useless.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 4, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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June 4th, 2018 at 10:21:29 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

These come by way of my program. If I'm missing any, I must have a programming error.
...Full list (including duplicate ranks)...Short list (no duplicate ranks)....


I agree with the number in your long and short lists.
terapined
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June 4th, 2018 at 11:02:14 AM permalink
I caught an error but I see error was caught, BBB 2nd spoiler, o deleted
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
ThatDonGuy
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June 4th, 2018 at 4:02:57 PM permalink
Wizard, my numbers come out slightly differently than yours:
(DNQ = Did Not Qualify)
Player
DealerDNQ12345
DNQ48164986601691792807704945362344889570615364093892174512102871588944
1917928077041746279825618098082352183582097601798203074419714019296
2945362344881809808235218474571432189077495041846462648020270209904
3957061536401835820976018907749504190325151201875146311220543861104
4938921745121798203074418464626480187514631121823036799220134053344
51028715889441971401929620270209904205438611042013405334421991599152
6969350136641857754764819095286800193817755681914750896820789238656
71060731597122036517310420855192064213397746082073092169622633053600
81190052477842293434769623517258544237173036162321759732825260095360
91243261964962413290446424401147280247431439362425823006426385678160
101337149598082570109798426210877376266231970402605996160028360748528

Player
Dealer678910
DNQ96935013664106073159712119005247784124326196496133714959808
11857754764820365173104229343476962413290446425701097984
21909528680020855192064235172585442440114728026210877376
31938177556821339774608237173036162474314393626623197040
41914750896820730921696232175973282425823006426059961600
52078923865622633053600252600953602638567816028360748528
61944294672821351853136238349642882489378350426792168976
72135185313623033727536256641139362677786113628855216704
82383496428825664113936279555713042920348193631629786016
92489378350426777861136292034819363024507841632893944144
102679216897628855216704316297860163289394414435425906656

I get a house advantage of 1.8675%, which is close to what I get in simulations.
Wizard
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June 4th, 2018 at 4:23:15 PM permalink
Thanks for your results. Clearly one of us is in error, and it could very well be me. To help us find our point of departure, I present the following table of possible outcomes for just the player, by your numbers and mine:

Dealer TDG MS
DNQ 0.313507 0.313507
1 0.060060 0.006356
2 0.061629 0.006873
3 0.062499 0.010460
4 0.061230 0.017654
5 0.066945 0.034546
6 0.063137 0.045905
7 0.068721 0.066897
8 0.076507 0.084342
9 0.079829 0.113352
10 0.085936 0.300108
Total 1.000000 1.000000


So we at least agree on the probability of qualifying. However, I'm clearing getting higher scores than you. The question is why. Let me think about it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Wizard
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June 4th, 2018 at 4:43:51 PM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

I get a house advantage of 1.8675%, which is close to what I get in simulations.



You're absolutely right. I found an error in implementing the rule about subtracting 10 if the two-card hand goes over 10.

Thank you very much for the correction. I definitely owe you more than a beer for that one.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
ThatDonGuy
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June 4th, 2018 at 4:45:51 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

You're absolutely right. I found an error in implementing the rule about subtracting 10 if the two-card hand goes over 10.

Thank you very much for the correction. I definitely owe you more than a beer for that one.


This time, You're On - I arrive in Vegas on Monday 6/18 in the afternoon, leaving Friday morning.
gordonm888
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June 4th, 2018 at 7:01:35 PM permalink
Very good. I have been wondering how it was possible that 30% of hands wound up as ten points. No matter what the three cards are in the bottom hand, I imagine that the two cards up front are pretty close to being random. Even given how often the 2-card hands are T-T, why should the two-card combinations add up to 10 or 20 as frequently as 30%? It was bothering me.

But, LOL, I was too lazy to make up a spreadsheet listing all the hands. Thanks to ThatDonGuy for doing the work that I was too slothful to do, and shining light on the issue.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
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June 4th, 2018 at 8:06:16 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Very good. I have been wondering how it was possible that 30% of hands wound up as ten points.



That didn't feel quite right to me either but I've never once played the same so dismissed my doubts too easily. If I wrote a simulation, I'm afraid the exact same error would have caused the same mis-scoring of hands. My mistake was not properly scoring the hands. The rule about deducting 10 points of the score was over 10 was where I screwed up. Just goes to show that an error in one line of code out of hundreds will screw up the bottom line.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
PapaChubby
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June 5th, 2018 at 5:24:01 AM permalink
I like the notion of the pot bet that allows you to compete against other players at the table. This seems like a twist which might be incorporated into other table games. Is the pot bet optional? It seems to me that the amount of the pot bet must be consistent between the players (can't have one player betting $25 and others betting $5). I think the picture shows $100 on the pot bet; I doubt that would be typical.

I hate the fact that there is no decision-making or skill involved in this game. And no hand development. I don't play baccarat because I view it to be a boring coin-flip style game with no skill. But at least there can be some excitement when the banker is dealt a 3rd card with the outcome of the hand in the balance. Nothing like that here.

I would like to see this game incorporate some sort of decision point. Maybe a bet/fold/raise decision after the player receives their first 4 cards. Or the player is dealt 4 cards, chooses one to discard, then receives two final cards. Something like that.

I will try to play this game next time I'm in Tampa, just to investigate. But I'm sure I will not be interested in playing this game on a regular basis.

Oh, and congratulations on your bike ride, Wiz!
Wizard
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June 5th, 2018 at 5:48:34 AM permalink
Quote: PapaChubby

I like the notion of the pot bet that allows you to compete against other players at the table. This seems like a twist which might be incorporated into other table games. Is the pot bet optional? It seems to me that the amount of the pot bet must be consistent between the players (can't have one player betting $25 and others betting $5). I think the picture shows $100 on the pot bet; I doubt that would be typical.



There is also that element of a non-raked community bet in the game Flop Poker. I agree the bet amount should be equal among players, but don't know what it is. Terapined is supposed to check out the game this week to provide more information.

Quote:

I would like to see this game incorporate some sort of decision point. Maybe a bet/fold/raise decision after the player receives their first 4 cards. Or the player is dealt 4 cards, chooses one to discard, then receives two final cards. Something like that.



I agree. However, there is room on the shelf for mindless games of luck too. It is hard to criticize they old games because at least they have a following. If nobody had invented craps and suddenly a single table went on field trial, I bet everybody would say it was the worst new game ever.

Quote:

Oh, and congratulations on your bike ride, Wiz!



Thanks! Was hoping someone would say that.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
terapined
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June 5th, 2018 at 8:50:29 AM permalink
No Saigon 5 card at the Seminole Tampa Hard Rock
Spoke to a pit boss
Gone over a year
Never caught on
Nobody played it
The Asian food place is gone. A replacement coming so that space is walled off. Hopefully something bigger and better. Last place had real good food but more of a coffee shop atmosphere with just a long twisting counter for seating.
Boy this place is getting big. Saw more expansion. I think this is the 6th largest in the world. No competition for hundreds of miles.
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
PapaChubby
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June 5th, 2018 at 9:01:11 AM permalink
News on the expansion: Tampa Hard Rock Casino Expansion

Is the Asian food place to which you refer the noodle bar in the corner of the Asian gaming room? It was open when I was there a couple of weeks ago, and packed as usual. Maybe they're expanding, as they only had room for about 15 customers at the bar (and I could never find a seat).
terapined
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June 5th, 2018 at 9:17:16 AM permalink
Quote: PapaChubby

News on the expansion: Tampa Hard Rock Casino Expansion

Is the Asian food place to which you refer the noodle bar in the corner of the Asian gaming room? It was open when I was there a couple of weeks ago, and packed as usual. Maybe they're expanding, as they only had room for about 15 customers at the bar (and I could never find a seat).


Yes, thats the place I was referring to.
Spoke to another pit boss, i asked him if he knew any casinos with Saigon 5 and he did not know
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
gordonm888
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June 5th, 2018 at 9:45:09 AM permalink
The hand: Joker-10-9-7-4

has 4 different ways to qualify, yielding point totals of 3,6,9 and 9! It might be easy for a player to not notice the highest scoring arrangement. So, there is an element of skill involved on a small number of hands that contain a joker.

Edit: The hand Joker-10-7-4-3 has 5 ways to qualify!
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 5, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
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June 5th, 2018 at 12:53:47 PM permalink
?T743 : Interesting that the way to find the highest total is to add all 5 and see if you can get to a total of 10x. T743 add up to 24, so with ?=6 this can be achieved. Provided you can make 10 with two cards, that must be the maximum. Thus ?T4/73 or T73/?4 work (Joker=6). ?T7/43 or T73/?4 give a 7-hand (Joker=3), ?74/T3 gives a 3-card (Joker=9).
Wizard
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June 5th, 2018 at 12:56:37 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

No Saigon 5 card at the Seminole Tampa Hard Rock



Thank you for checking.

To be honest, I'm not surprised authentic Chinese food is a bit difficult to find in west Florida. Your next Vegas visit, I'll treat you to some good stuff.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
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June 6th, 2018 at 10:25:11 AM permalink
I was wondering if the player will ever have a choice between arranging his hand so that it makes either 5 points or a lower point total 1-4. Because a 5 point hand has a 1:2 payout, I wondered whether optimal strategy would involve the player actually choosing the hand arrangement with the lower point total.

Quick summary: No. Choosing the arrangement of a hand with the highest point total is always correct.

I found 8 distinct hands in which it is possible to arrange the cards so that the hand is either 5 points or 1-4 points.

5 or 1 points: WT651
5 or 2 points: WT432, WT321, W8641, WT775, W8774, WT522 and W9322

For example, consider WT432:
5 points: WT4-32 EV= -0.03514
2 points: W43-T2 EV= -0.13524
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
Wizard
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June 6th, 2018 at 11:18:06 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I was wondering if the player will ever have a choice between arranging his hand so that it makes either 5 points or a lower point total 1-4. Because a 5 point hand has a 1:2 payout, I wondered whether optimal strategy would involve the player actually choosing the hand arrangement with the lower point total.



Good question.

One one thing, I'm not even sure if the player is even allowed to set his hand. In this online game it is done automatically.

However, if you could, here is an estimate of the expected value of each total. This is based on independent decks between player and dealer.


Points EV
0 -28.70%
1 -22.70%
2 -19.12%
3 -6.71%
4 5.66%
5 -9.47%
6 31.49%
7 44.67%
8 59.20%
9 74.83%
10 91.41%
Does not qualify -68.65%


What this seems to show is that playing 3 or 4 would beat a 5 in expected value, but not 2 or less.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
gordonm888
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June 6th, 2018 at 11:24:40 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Good question.

One one thing, I'm not even sure if the player is even allowed to set his hand. In this online game it is done automatically.

However, if you could, here is an estimate of the expected value of each total. This is based on independent decks between player and dealer.


Points EV
0 -28.70%
1 -22.70%
2 -19.12%
3 -6.71%
4 5.66%
5 -9.47%
6 31.49%
7 44.67%
8 59.20%
9 74.83%
10 91.41%
Does not qualify -68.65%


What this seems to show is that playing 3 or 4 would beat a 5 in expected value, but not 2 or less.



Yes, those are generic EVs not considering the five cards in your hand. However, all hands that can be arranged to make two or more different point totals have a Joker in them. Removing the Joker from the deck will change all of those values by a considerable amount. FYI:


]
Points EV with 53 cards EV -Joker removed
0 -28.70% -32.89%
1 -22.70% -26.58%
2 -19.12% -14.11%
3 -6.71% -0.01%
4 5.66% 13.08%
5 -9.47% -3.24%
6 31.49% 40.02%
7 44.67% 52.29%
8 59.20% 65.51%
9 74.83% 78.20%
10 91.61% 92.43%
Does not qualify -68.65% -66.44%


Not really sure what a zero point hand is, given that DNQ is a separate entry?

Anyway, your basic advice appears to be perfectly correct. A 5 point hand is worse than a 4 or 3 point hand.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Jun 6, 2018
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
beachbumbabs
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June 6th, 2018 at 1:40:05 PM permalink
If you got 5 ten-value cards, or 3 face cards and a 6-4, for example, all of those hands would both qualify and be worth 0. There would be a fair number of zero hands, I would think.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
charliepatrick
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June 7th, 2018 at 3:25:33 AM permalink
I'm not sure how you can get a 0-point hand since you only subtract 10 if the total is over 10. A simple idea is If you add up all five cards and ignore the 10's then if you can qualify you are subtracting 10's so the last digit of the 2-card hand will be the same (or 10 if the digit is 0). Without a joker there is only one possible total, albeit you may be able to make it different ways (e.g. T7643 = T73/64 or T64/73; both total=30 so lo hand = 10).

With a joker you have a variety of totals which will be something like 32 35 38, 35 38 41, 29 32 35; thus the difference between them is 3 and if you can make a 5 then the other totals will include an 8 or 9 (as well as a 1 or 2).

Note According to the wizard write-up a picture card is worth 10 and all other cards are positive, thus two cards cannot add up to 0. The rule about exceeding ten says
Quote: https://wizardofodds.com/games/saigon-5-card/

the point value of the remaining two cards shall be the sum of the point value of the two cards, except if that total is greater than 10, then ten will be subtracted from the total.

Thus were people assuming two picture cards were considered as zero (e.g. TT866)?
Wizard
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June 7th, 2018 at 7:51:59 AM permalink
It's true you cannot get a zero point hand. I shouldn't have confused the topic by putting the line in my table. My value was simply equal to prob(dealer doesn't qualify)-prob(dealer qualifies).
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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