Poll

1 vote (25%)
1 vote (25%)
2 votes (50%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (50%)
2 votes (50%)
No votes (0%)
1 vote (25%)
1 vote (25%)
1 vote (25%)

4 members have voted

Wizard
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Wizard
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March 27th, 2018 at 6:22:49 PM permalink
Gin and Win is currently on field trial at the Golden Nugget in Laughlin. It follows the same kind of raise or fold structure as in Three Card Poker but is based on gin scoring. I haven't had the pleasure to play it yet but AGS, the game distributor, was kind enough to share their math report with me.

So, please have a look at my new page on Gin and Win. As usual, I welcome all questions, comments, and especially corrections.

The question for the poll is would you play Gin and Win?
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy
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March 27th, 2018 at 6:56:27 PM permalink
At first, I thought it was called Go For Gin, named for the 1994 Kentucky Derby winner.
Venthus
Venthus
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March 27th, 2018 at 8:51:55 PM permalink
The bonus paytable as printed on the felt at the actual table is different and the dealer qualifies on T, not J (which was explicitly mentioned as a change from the original rules after their training period).

I'll post an image of the info placard if I can figure out where I put it.
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 27th, 2018 at 9:35:45 PM permalink
Quote: Venthus

The bonus paytable as printed on the felt at the actual table is different and the dealer qualifies on T, not J (which was explicitly mentioned as a change from the original rules after their training period).

I'll post an image of the info placard if I can figure out where I put it.



That's not what I like to hear, but thanks for telling me. Kind of makes my whole page useless. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can get an updated report.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
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March 27th, 2018 at 10:11:42 PM permalink
I wonder if serious Gin players will be thrown by having to form hands with 7 cards instead of 10? 3CP confused many new players with straights outranking flushes. Is there a different approach that players should take when forming hands with 7 cards vs. the usual 10? e.g., Look for flushes first

Is there a house way to form hands? Can the dealer be called on to set a player’s hand? What if a player makes an error and puts a good card in their deadwood pile? Can it be retrieved?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
Venthus
Venthus
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March 27th, 2018 at 10:20:52 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I wonder if serious Gin players will be thrown by having to form hands with 7 cards instead of 10? 3CP confused many new players with straights outranking flushes. Is there a different approach that players should take when forming hands with 7 cards vs. the usual 10? e.g., Look for flushes first

Is there a house way to form hands? Can the dealer be called on to set a player’s hand? What if a player makes an error and puts a good card in their deadwood pile? Can it be retrieved?



My method: Pull the 3+ flushes first, then check for pairs, and confirm that you've got the most efficient combo if there are multiple ways to do it. (Note: Since the dealer training varies, check with them-- I had one dealer insist that, in the case of an equal number of cards, the lowest low card wins. I didn't realize that was incorrect until the next dealer argued the point.)

No, just whatever's most efficient.
Yes, but that may have been a courtesy since, for obvious reasons, we're all new to the game.
Your deadwood pile is the 'bad' pile; if you threw out an extra card and they didn't notice, that's in your favor. No idea what they'd do with it though; it'd be like misplaying the high/low hand in PGP, I guess. (Unlike HCF, they check the discard pile to make sure it's legit... though not for efficiency.)
Venthus
Venthus
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March 27th, 2018 at 10:21:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I wonder if serious Gin players will be thrown by having to form hands with 7 cards instead of 10? 3CP confused many new players with straights outranking flushes. Is there a different approach that players should take when forming hands with 7 cards vs. the usual 10? e.g., Look for flushes first

Is there a house way to form hands? Can the dealer be called on to set a player’s hand? What if a player makes an error and puts a good card in their deadwood pile? Can it be retrieved?



My method: Pull the 3+ flushes first, then check for pairs, and confirm that you've got the most efficient combo if there are multiple ways to do it. (Note: Since the dealer training varies, check with them-- I had one dealer insist that, in the case of an equal number of cards, the lowest low card wins. I didn't realize that was incorrect until the next dealer argued the point.)

No, just whatever's most efficient.
Yes, but that may have been a courtesy since, for obvious reasons, we're all new to the game.
Your deadwood pile is the 'bad' pile; if you threw out an extra card and they didn't notice, that's in your favor. No idea what they'd do with it though; it'd be like misplaying the high/low hand in PGP, I guess. (Unlike HCF, they check the discard pile to make sure it's legit... though not for efficiency.)
Venthus
Venthus
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March 27th, 2018 at 10:21:20 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I wonder if serious Gin players will be thrown by having to form hands with 7 cards instead of 10? 3CP confused many new players with straights outranking flushes. Is there a different approach that players should take when forming hands with 7 cards vs. the usual 10? e.g., Look for flushes first

Is there a house way to form hands? Can the dealer be called on to set a player’s hand? What if a player makes an error and puts a good card in their deadwood pile? Can it be retrieved?



My method: Pull the 3+ flushes first, then check for pairs, and confirm that you've got the most efficient combo if there are multiple ways to do it. (Note: Since the dealer training varies, check with them-- I had one dealer insist that, in the case of an equal number of cards, the lowest low card wins. I didn't realize that was incorrect until the next dealer argued the point.)

No, just whatever's most efficient.
Yes, but that may have been a courtesy since, for obvious reasons, we're all new to the game.
Your deadwood pile is the 'bad' pile; if you threw out an extra card and they didn't notice, that's in your favor. No idea what they'd do with it though; it'd be like misplaying the high/low hand in PGP, I guess. (Unlike HCF, they check the discard pile to make sure it's legit... though not for efficiency.)

Edit: Uhm... sorry about the spam. Got a server 500 error when I tried to submit and refreshing the page evidently didn't clear the cache properly so I didn't see it until I pulled the thread in another browser.

I'll see if they'll let me take a photo of the bonus pay table if I swing by Laughlin before anybody else gets to it; I distinctly remember the lowest winning hand on the bonus a 2card<7 at 1:1 and that one of the dealers (same one mistaken about the lowest high card vs lowest low card, admittedly) said that the paytable had the big winner dropped from 1000 to 500.

I want to say, but can't say with certainty, that 0-card was 8:1 and the 7-card-flush wasn't there at all.

The official terminology was kind of weird too; I believe they called the number of cards 'points', and the face value of the card 'rank'. Which REALLY confused me, since I'm used to actual gin where the sum of the deadwood values are points, not number of cards...

Also, there's a discrepancy between Gin Bonus Paytable and Gin Bonus Analysis; 4OAK+3OAK isn't mentioned on the former list at all.
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 28th, 2018 at 7:35:44 AM permalink
Your chances of being allowed to just copy the pay table are much better than taking a picture. I've also been known to take a discrete cell phone picture lots of times. The AGS demo game has the following pay table on the Gin Bonus:
Hand Pays 4-of-a-Kind & 3-of-a-Kind 1000 5-Card Flush & Pair 25 4-of-a-Kind & 3-Card Flush 10 Other “Gin” Hand (No Deadwood) 4 One Deadwood Card 2 Two Deadwood Cards (both seven or lower) 1
For a no-skill side bet, this will be rather time consuming to analyze. While it may seem obvious how to play any given hand, putting common sense into computer code is sometimes rather difficult.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
Wizard
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Wizard
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March 28th, 2018 at 2:33:05 PM permalink
Okay, I was told the whole initial report was in error. I have never heard of said math gun for hire making an on-the-record error before, so I was rather shocked. I won't say his name, out of respect, but he is not a member here, which kind of narrows it down.

This morning I received a math report by GLI, which I believe matches the Golden Nugget rules. I completely redid my Gin and Win page, so please have a new look.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.

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