Bankroll for 7 day trip

Hello everyone,

Long term lurker, my first post.

I have planned a trip to Vegas for a week in September. We will be staying at The Cromwell.

This will be my first trip to Vegas since I have come of age (been there a few times as a kid with my dad and his friends), and while I have played in casinos online and in Europe, I have not gambled in the USA before.

I am very excited towards my upcoming trip. As we are flying almost 16 hours to get to Vegas, I thought a week there would be the least I could do considering the length of travel/cost of airfare.

My question is a common one, but I would really appreciate some advice.

I plan on bringing a bankroll of say $3,000-$4,000 for the week. I'd like to get in a few hours of play everyday. As my finance and I are going to be doing a lot of shows, helicopter tour Grand Canyon etc, much money will go to that. She is not a gambler so I cannot just sit at the tables and expect her to do nothing for a week.

The only games I am planning on playing is mainly Blackjack and very little $5 three card poker. Blackjack will be the lion's share.

At what minimum should I be looking to play to make $3,000 or so last 4 hours of play for about a week? I don't mind going to some of the crappier joints with better odds, but am well aware that my fiance would not enjoy those kind of surroundings.

Please advice on the best method to make that bankroll last and where you would recommend playing.

Many thanks.

Welcome to the board!

I'm going to immediately steer you off on a tangent. Which might not be of any interest to you at all. But here goes anyway...

My advice is that you learn to play Pai Gow Poker. It is a fun game which is more sociable and slower paced than blackjack. You should be able to sit at a $20 PGP table for 2 hours with a $300 buy-in, and probably leave the table up or down less than $100. I have found this almost impossible to do with blackjack even at $10 minimums. I would think that you could get in your 4 hours per day and finish the trip up or down about $1000. This gives you plenty of margin to play some higher stakes, or supplement your PGP with some blackjack as well.

At these stakes, you can play in the nicer casinos. And because PGP is sociable and slow paced, maybe it's possible you could even get your fiance to enjoy it. In my experience, PGP is an entertaining way to spend as much time at the table as you want (free drinks!) in a low-stress environment with limited financial risk.

That's a pretty large bankroll. You should be fine playing $25 a hand.

But I second the Pai Gow Poker comment.

Quote: malioil

Hello everyone,

Long term lurker, my first post.

I have planned a trip to Vegas for a week in September. We will be staying at The Cromwell.

One good thing about The Cromwell is that their blackjack is all 3:2 currently.

That may change before September, but I don't think there is any other strip casino with all 3:2 at the moment....

Quote: FinsRule

That's a pretty large bankroll. You should be fine playing $25 a hand.

But I second the Pai Gow Poker comment.

Welcome to the board.

I would have to disagree about the bankroll being large, given that you are planning to use it for helicopter rides, shows, and other expensive entertwinments. You're talking about $250/day in non-gambling entertainment, which makes your gambling br $1250-2250 for the entire week, or at most a little over $300/day in losses.

The good news is, sometimes you win. But you can't plan on it. It would be easy to lose all of that on the first 4 hour day at $10 BJ. I'm pretty sure you'll have to leave Cromwell to find any $5 tables, or $10 BJ most hours.

Bally's is across the street, and has lower minimums. It's also a Caesars property, and would not be uncomfortable for her. Flamingo is a block the other way, same is true, Linq just the other side of that.

There is also a great deal to see for free in both sides of the Strip. I would suggest you mix in visits to various casinos just to look around and enjoy the resorts. Look at Venetian/Palazzo, Mirage, Cosmopolitan, Mandalay Bay, Aria, Caesars, and especially Bellagio for beautiful gardens, art, architecture, pools. Consider day passes to Mandalay Bay or MGM Grand if it's nice enough to swim. Planet Hollywood for movie memorabilia or Hard Rock for music.

I'm pretty sure there's a good thread or two here on what's where, not to mention other websites. But with it being your first visit, there's a lot to see on the Strip, lots of free live music and other amusements scattered around.

I concur with Pai Gow Poker being a good choice for your bankroll and objectives, as it plays slowly and usually friendly, with a relatively slow drain on your money.

It's possible you have a previous relationship with Caesars if you play in London. If so, perhaps the Cromwell hosts can help you with show tickets. There are also at least a dozen afternoon or evening shows that are lower-tier pricing, but good entertainment. It doesn't have to be Elton John or Beatles Love to be worth your time.

Thanks everyone for the replies. I appreciate it.

Just to clarify, the $3,000 is just for gaming. Shows and trips will be paid for with a different budget.

$3,000 for a week is way too low for $25 a hand blackjack. Sure, you could do great and never even get close to losing it, but you could also be destroyed in 2 days.

If you are just playing for the entertainment, play $10 and enjoy your free drinks.


ZCore13

Quote: malioil

Long term lurker, my first post.

I have planned a trip to Vegas for a week in September. We will be staying at The Cromwell.

This will be my first trip to Vegas since I have come of age (been there a few times as a kid with my dad and his friends), and while I have played in casinos online and in Europe, I have not gambled in the USA before.

I plan on bringing a bankroll of say $3,000-$4,000 for the week. I'd like to get in a few hours of play everyday.

Please advice on the best method to make that bankroll last and where you would recommend playing.

Many thanks.

Hi Malioil, Welcome into the light.

With that bankroll, you can have lots of fun, but you will need to pace yourself.
I strongly recommend you read the blog and early posts of member LostWages :-
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/lostwages/blog/#post1411

You are going to need to find a low stakes table, preferably with a few players to slow the pace down. With fair wind, you should get at least an hours fun with a session roll of about $250 if you are on a $5 table min betting. By all means throw out some 5, 10, 15 wagers out, but that could mean losing a session roll very quickly. I personally enjoy mixing it up with a 5,10,15,15,15 progressive.
Aspire to still have most of your trip bankroll remaining on the last day. It's not obligatory to go home broke and think of the kudos from your lady if you win the cost of a night's outing. Always have enough in your back pocket to cover any doubles or splits as your session roll gets low.
Have fun and report back.

If you are playing Blackjack and playing 4 hour sessions for a week, that's 28 hours at 100 hands / hour or 2,800 hands. The Cromwell changed its table games in the summer making them much more player friendly and bringing back alot of 3:2 tables at lower limits of $10 during the week and $15 during the weekends. According to other web sites, these are CSMs and you can resplit (but can't resplit Aces) and double anything, including after a split but cannot surrender. There are also double deck games at higher limits.

Assuming that you are a novice player, first, bring the basic strategy card to the table, don't feel afraid to use it, and ignore the other idiots at the table who admonish you when you hit a 12 on a 3 or hit a 16 against a 9. By doing that, you should keep the HE at 1%. By being religious about it, you can hit the ideal at .62% or .46% on the double deck (take the correct strategy card from the WoO site). Remember that the fun of the game is double down and split. Don't be afraid to do it. This is where novice gamers lose out on opportunities! The strategy cards that the Wizard produces are statistically correct and produces the best results when you are not counting cards.

So say 1% at $15/hand you are looking at an expected loss of $420. At .62% it is 260.40.

The Standard deviation for blackjack is 1.1418. Over 2800 hands, the Standard deviation over $42,000 bet is sqrt(2800*1.1418) * 15 = $848.13.

That means at .62% you will do the following at a $15 table over 2,800 hands (in brackets I put the same percentages for $10)

Win over $1,500: 1.89% ($10 - 0.15%)
Win between $1,000 and $1,500: 4.97% (1.74%)
Win between $500 and $1,000: 11.64% (9.78%)
Win between $0 and $500: 19.44% (26.26%)
Lose between $0 and $500: 23.18% (33.87%)
Lose between $500 and $1000: 19.72% (20.99%)
Lose between $1,000 and $1,500: 11.97% (6.24%)
Lose between $1,500 and $2,000: 5.18% (0.89%)
Lose between $2,000 and $2,500: 1.6% (0.06%)
Lose more than $2,500: 0.41% (0.002%)

If it were me, I'd be looking for $10 tables. If you are comfortable with a 0.41% chance of losing your 2500 bankroll, then by all means, use $15 minimums. $10 3/2 tables will be hard to find on weekend evenings. For that reason alone, I would avoid gambling on the weekend evenings and take your partner around town on Friday and Saturday evenings.

Cromwell is excellently located. You are a 5 minute walk to Caesars, Bellagio, Ballys, Flamingo, Linq, and Paris. More importantly you are five minutes away (go east!) to Ellis Island, which is a nice little casino with very cheap (and excellent) Steak and Eggs, Ribs, and $5 3:2 Blackjack. Get a players card there and save more. There's also a 7-11 there where you can stock up on in-room amenities.

Have fun!

Quote: boymimbo

If you are playing Blackjack and playing 4 hour sessions for a week, that's 28 hours at 100 hands / hour or 2,800 hands. The Cromwell changed its table games in the summer making them much more player friendly and bringing back alot of 3:2 tables at lower limits of $10 during the week and $15 during the weekends. According to other web sites, these are CSMs and you can resplit (but can't resplit Aces) and double anything, including after a split but cannot surrender. There are also double deck games at higher limits.

Assuming that you are a novice player, first, bring the basic strategy card to the table, don't feel afraid to use it, and ignore the other idiots at the table who admonish you when you hit a 12 on a 3 or hit a 16 against a 9. By doing that, you should keep the HE at 1%. By being religious about it, you can hit the ideal at .62% or .46% on the double deck (take the correct strategy card from the WoO site). Remember that the fun of the game is double down and split. Don't be afraid to do it. This is where novice gamers lose out on opportunities! The strategy cards that the Wizard produces are statistically correct and produces the best results when you are not counting cards.

So say 1% at $15/hand you are looking at an expected loss of $420. At .62% it is 260.40.

The Standard deviation for blackjack is 1.1418. Over 2800 hands, the Standard deviation over $42,000 bet is sqrt(2800*1.1418) * 15 = $848.13.

That means at .62% you will do the following at a $15 table over 2,800 hands (in brackets I put the same percentages for $10)

Win over $1,500: 1.89% ($10 - 0.15%)
Win between $1,000 and $1,500: 4.97% (1.74%)
Win between $500 and $1,000: 11.64% (9.78%)
Win between $0 and $500: 19.44% (26.26%)
Lose between $0 and $500: 23.18% (33.87%)
Lose between $500 and $1000: 19.72% (20.99%)
Lose between $1,000 and $1,500: 11.97% (6.24%)
Lose between $1,500 and $2,000: 5.18% (0.89%)
Lose between $2,000 and $2,500: 1.6% (0.06%)
Lose more than $2,500: 0.41% (0.002%)

If it were me, I'd be looking for $10 tables. If you are comfortable with a 0.41% chance of losing your 2500 bankroll, then by all means, use $15 minimums. $10 3/2 tables will be hard to find on weekend evenings. For that reason alone, I would avoid gambling on the weekend evenings and take your partner around town on Friday and Saturday evenings.

Cromwell is excellently located. You are a 5 minute walk to Caesars, Bellagio, Ballys, Flamingo, Linq, and Paris. More importantly you are five minutes away (go east!) to Ellis Island, which is a nice little casino with very cheap (and excellent) Steak and Eggs, Ribs, and $5 3:2 Blackjack. Get a players card there and save more. There's also a 7-11 there where you can stock up on in-room amenities.

Have fun!

Great post, boymimbo! I couldn't remember if Ellis Island was behind Cromwell or some other property. Also the Tuscany is about 2 blocks further east on that same street, another ok off-strip casino/hotel with low minimums.

In the thread The Cromwell, someone just posted the specifics to friendlier table games there (look in Recent Posts on the front page). I'm probably going to have to go there myself now. Anyway, that changes you having to go looking for good BJ. You're unlikely to find better on the Strip. It's always best to play where you stay, anyway, and be sure to get players cards for both of you the first day, and use them at the table.

You should have played enough, it sounds like, to ask for consideration at checkout, so charge your food and gift shop items back to the room, then ask them to look at your play when you check out. They may take all or part of those off your bill at that time.

Quote: malioil

Thanks everyone for the replies. I appreciate it.

Just to clarify, the $3,000 is just for gaming.
Shows and trips will be paid for with a different budget.

i'll chime in w/my suggestion.

assuming you're not gambling on the day you leave:
$3k / 6 days = $500/day

20x buy-in is what I've read as the suggested buy-in for blackjack thus $500/20 = $25 max bet.
20x so that you're not playing scared. it's no fun playing scared.

set a daily stop limit for yourself.
ie: play x hrs, or double/triple your $, or you're down to 4 bets ($100) and playing scared
after you hit that limit, walk away!

I still stand by my $25 will be fine post. But maybe the first day or two you start at $15 and as long as you don't get destroyed, then you'd definitely be fine going up to $25. I know playing green only will help you more with comps.

I'd get bored of 4 hours a day of blackjack. I still say switch it up and maybe you'll find something you'd enjoy more.

Quote: FinsRule

I still stand by my $25 will be fine post. But maybe the first day or two you start at $15 and as long as you don't get destroyed, then you'd definitely be fine going up to $25. I know playing green only will help you more with comps.

I'd get bored of 4 hours a day of blackjack. I still say switch it up and maybe you'll find something you'd enjoy more.

I agree, since he explained his br and entertainment are separate budgets. He should play the better game, using or memorizing the strategy card. It should also help at.checkout.

Quote: FinsRule

I still stand by my $25 will be fine post. But maybe the first day or two you start at $15 and as long as you don't get destroyed, then you'd definitely be fine going up to $25. I know playing green only will help you more with comps.

I'd get bored of 4 hours a day of blackjack. I still say switch it up and maybe you'll find something you'd enjoy more.

The 20X minimum bankroll stake for BJ has always been my rule of thumb but just remember that, by 4 hours, you don't have to gamble for a block of 4 hours. You can do 90 minutes here, and hour there, and so on.

Nobody has mentioned craps but I think that you should try that. You might like the communal atmosphere of the game and it goes at a nice pace when the table is full. My rule of thumb has always been to play with 100X my minimum bet. That can last awhile if you don't put money out all over the board. Stick to a simple 6 or 8 place bet, or a minimal pass line bet with odds, and decide if you like the game (note: remember that, despite the slight disadvantage, the pass line requires less of a bankroll) You might have trouble finding a $5 on the strip, but you can probably find a $10 game here and there. Again, just don't spread yourself all over the board and take the low vig bets.

I'm sure you know but,all the same, don't make a bet anywhere without a players card. Mlife, Rewards, 24K, whoever.

Lucca he probably shouldn't do craps unless it is a $400 buy in once and see how it goes. Even playing minimal you can burn $400 in 30 minutes.

Well, guys, thank you for taking the time to reply and give me the low down. I really do appreciate it. Some really eye opening stuff here!

As I have until September, I am learning Pai Gow Poker to take your advice and I guess that is plenty of time to learn and simulate other games which will be enjoyable.

I've been thinking about something I want to take your advice on. When it comes to gambling I don't enjoy betting big, for me it really is that I like the game/''challenge'' more than a way to make/bet big money.

I was thinking, as I would like to experience as much of Vegas as possible, should I stay downtown for 3 nights or so, and spend 5 nights at Cromwell? It might be a good way to have access to low limit, good games for a few days that would be more concentrated on gambling, and then we can hit the strip for entertainment/shows, etc and a bit of gambling.

Would you suggest anywhere good to stay with a good chance of getting comps? I was looking at suites at the Downtown Grand and the Golden Nugget.

Many thanks again for the eye opening replies and I look forward to hearing what you have to say!

I always loved the strip but was forced to abandon it because my knee is bad and I can't handle the walking anymore. My personal favorites were the MGM and Paris (both of which are monorail stops). I stay at the GN now, which is the closest thing to a strip casino that you'll find downtown (I've heard that the D isn't bad, but I've never been there). All the BJ's are 3:2, with smaller minimums at night, and they have a small high roller area. The resteraunts are nice too. I get comped a Rush Tower junior suite and it's as nice as any room that you'll find on the strip. The are probably a bit more liberal with their comps since they're downtown but you still have to show them some action.

The downsides are that all of Freemont Street is a bit of a nuthouse and if you want the excellent shows you need to get on the deuce and go back to the strip.

All "in my opinion":

Downtown is a different experience altogether. First off, it's a bit more ragged. The Fremont Street Experience is rockin', but you will tire of it after one night. Once you get more than 20 feet inside any of those casinos it's very dreary, and the hotels are not 4 and 5*. There's little in the way of shows there except for the street itself. Food is less expensive there and your dollar will go further. With a bankroll of 3,000 and choices like BJ and PGP, you won't have a problem with your bankroll on the strip provided that you aren't a problem gambler.

Given that you are travelling with your wife, if you are desiring both experiences, I would do the first two nights downtown then come to the strip. Your wife will be more impressed with the strip over anything that downtown offers. I couldn't recommend a better place to stay on your first trip to Vegas - center strip.

Enjoy yourself and don't overthink it.

Hello everyone, thanks for your replies once again, it's me again.

An opportunity has come up to go to Vegas after a business conference in LA. As I am travelling 28 hours to get to LA, I though what the hell, let me hit Vegas for a few days afterwards. I will be heading out at the end of the month.

I was hoping some of the math wizzes and generally more experienced players could help me out here.

I have a $2,000 gambling bankroll for 4 days, coming in at $500 a day.

With blackjack, PGP and VP, generally, is that a reasonable amount for the time in Vegas?

I'm staying at the SLS, so good $10 bj is available. Also, the Sahara was my old man's favourite spot. He always got lucky there after losing big at the old MGM (Ballys).

Quote: malioil

I have a $2,000 gambling bankroll for 4 days, coming in at $500 a day.

With blackjack, PGP and VP, generally, is that a reasonable amount for the time in Vegas?

I'm staying at the SLS, so good $10 bj is available. Also, the Sahara was my old man's favourite spot. He always got lucky there after losing big at the old MGM (Ballys).

Those are pretty general questions. I suppose it really depends on what games you will be playing and for how long you plan to play them each day. I also don't know what kind of juice you want on VP. On nickel 99%+ VP, single-line, $500/day is essentially invincible. Your coin-in per hour is only $200 at 800 hands per hour.

Quote: Mission146

Those are pretty general questions. I suppose it really depends on what games you will be playing and for how long you plan to play them each day. I also don't know what kind of juice you want on VP. On nickel 99%+ VP, single-line, $500/day is essentially invincible. Your coin-in per hour is only $200 at 800 hands per hour.

Many thanks.

A few hours a day, mainly PGP and BJ, with some VP on the side. Lets say 4 hours of PGP and 2-3 hours of BJ.

I am a complete beginner at Vegas so any advice will be much appreciated.

I’d also vouch for PGP being the best game for a recreational player (in my opinion)

1) I think it is WAY more fun than other low HE decision making games like BJ or VP

2) Knowing PGP strategy “good enough” is generally good enough. Mistakes are often very borderline with much less EV lost than deviating from a BJ or VP basic strategy.

3) This is especially true if you are looking to drink. The game goes so slow that I’d wager that playing $10 or $15 PGP is the cheapest way to drink on the strip.

SLS is pretty dead during the day. Actions mainly start at night.

Quote: malioil

Many thanks.

A few hours a day, mainly PGP and BJ, with some VP on the side. Lets say 4 hours of PGP and 2-3 hours of BJ.

I am a complete beginner at Vegas so any advice will be much appreciated.

Still a lot to cover, so I'll just say a few things and feel free to ask any specific questions that you like. I might be busy off and on the next few days, but myself and other members (who know more about Vegas specifically than I do) are sure to answer.

1.) If you're going to play PGP, then the most important thing that you can do with a $500 daily bankroll (or anywhere else) is to look for the lowest limits. There may be a good reason not to, I suppose it depends on where you are staying and how much play you want to give them. I don't know your specific situation there, so I can only speak in generalities.

Downtown is a good place to go where some casinos spread PGP for $5 minimums. You will also enjoy $5 single and double-deck Blackjack at the El Cortez as well as $5 Blackjack at other locations Downtown. When you have a set amount of time you would like to play, then it is important to look at both House Edge and Variance.

There are many resources available for you on PGP, including this PGP strategy page:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/strategy/foxwoods/

Assuming the Foxwoods House Way, the game comes with a House Edge of 2.6892%, for an expected loss of 13.446 cents per hand. Actual results will vary.

You should bank whenever possible, and preferably, play alone at a table that allows you to bank. When you bank you go up against all players, so depending on how much they are betting, you might not be able/willing to bank against them. Many tables may not allow banking.

More importantly, for a simple strategy, you can print off this pdf strategy guide:

https://wizardofodds.com/pdf/pai-gow-poker-simple-strategy.pdf

They shouldn't have a problem with you having it at the table. It's simple, and the House Edge if the House is banking is 2.69%, so it's not too far off from Optimal.

My most important tip for recreational PGP play, especially when you're alone, is that you can largely dictate the pace of the game. Of course, that could get boring and a full table will also be reasonably slow.

Wizard talks about a HPH in the mid-30's on this page for pgp:

https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/#toc-HandsperHour2CHouseEdgeforCompPurposes

So, that would mean that you're expected to expose less than $200 in total action per hour, if you can play at that rate. There's absolutely no reason that $500 shouldn't last four hours, it'd be a ridiculously rare event.

2.) Blackjack

You should, first and foremost, make sure that Blackjacks pay 3:2 and avoid 6:5 paytables at all costs. As mentioned before, you should also seek out the lowest limits. If you're willing to drive or take a shuttle, the Longhorn has a fun game that usually has $3 minimums and allows you to double even after your first hit. It doesn't come up often, but imagine getting dealt 3-4 against a dealer showing six, you hit for another four to total eleven...and now you can double!

Coolest Blackjack rule ever.

They also have Match Play coupons and perhaps others in books such as Las Vegas Advisor and American Casino Guide.

You can use this calculator:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/calculator/

To see which Blackjack rules do what to the House Edge. People may be hesitant to openly discuss where the GREAT games are, so definitely call around to various casinos when you get there and ask to be transferred to the pit so you can inquire about the rules. That phone call will also tell you a little something about the customer service standards at various places. If they give you guff, screw them, if they don't want you there are plenty of other casinos.

After figuring out the rules, jump on this:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/calculator/

And print yourself out an appropriate strategy guide that you can take to the table.

Blackjack can often be more, "Swingy," than PGP and it's also a much faster-paced game, often coming in at 70+ HPH. Between strategy errors and the faster pace, your expected loss per hour could be as much as PGP...so make sure to play the proper strategy!

3.) Video Poker

vpfree2.com is a great resource to get an idea about VP paytables.

Obviously, you want to play as small a denomination as you can stand, preferably single-line, if that's not too boring for you. The flashy newer games tend to require bets of more than five credits per hand, put the Variance through the roof, and often have different strategies than the base game...many of them unknown.

My advice is to look at return tables for various games:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/basics/#toc-ReturnTables

And print out a strategy sheet based on those paytables:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/strategy/calculator/

Unlike the other games, you completely dictate the pace at which you play Video Poker. There is also no pressure from anywhere to make a decision quickly, so you can take your time looking over your strategy guide to make the right play, if you like.

I would suggest maybe finding a general game that you like, whether it be Jacks or Better, Deuces, Jokers, Double Double Bonus...whatever...and practice with this:

https://wizardofodds.com/play/video-poker/single-hand/

The reason why is so that you learn some general concepts for the game you like, that way you don't have to look up every single play all the time. While smart if you don't know them, that quickly gets boring. Feels more like work than fun. Best for 95%+ of your holds to essentially be automatic.

Quote: gamerfreak

I’d also vouch for PGP being the best game for a recreational player (in my opinion)

1) I think it is WAY more fun than other low HE decision making games like BJ or VP

2) Knowing PGP strategy “good enough” is generally good enough. Mistakes are often very borderline with much less EV lost than deviating from a BJ or VP basic strategy.

3) This is especially true if you are looking to drink. The game goes so slow that I’d wager that playing $10 or $15 PGP is the cheapest way to drink on the strip.

3) Hooters $1 BJ game. Usually six players with a collective BJ IQ under 100. Our tradition is to play slow and dumb while sucking down shots and imported beer.

BillRyan for the win!!!

Assuming you play proper basic strategy and only 3:2 tables, $3000 bankroll will give you 97% chance of surviving 2000 hands (30 hours) at $25 per hand.

Playing $50 per hand you still have 70% chance of survival.

Quote: billryan

3) Hooters $1 BJ game. Usually six players with a collective BJ IQ under 100. Our tradition is to play slow and dumb while sucking down shots and imported beer.

I didn’t know $1 BJ was still a thing.

$2 Craps is a thing too, right? I’d think that would be just as cheap to play.

I don't play craps, so couldn't say.

For craps, play minimum and one time odds. When it is cold. Just watch.