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darkoz
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March 30th, 2017 at 5:32:06 PM permalink
You can see how interblock is upset at the mere suggestion of gaffed wheels how the disclosure of mr s data would be even more damaging and suggestive
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TomG
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March 30th, 2017 at 5:49:41 PM permalink
Can't there be a way to prevent wheel clocking while still keeping the game random?

Anytime the game feels "threatened," it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.

Only someone who would otherwise be able to beat the game would now find themselves facing something other than a 5.3% house edge. Everyone else (including Mike during his testing) would just be betting on a seemingly completely fair wheel.

Normally a topic I wouldn't pay much attention to, but considering the source it does become an interesting topic to look into a discuss.

-----

I have found something I truly believe to be a "gaffe" somewhat similar to what's being discussed here. Except it can actually be used to the players advantage to reduce the house edge
Paigowdan
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March 30th, 2017 at 5:57:21 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

You can see how interblock is upset at the mere suggestion of gaffed wheels how the disclosure of mr s data would be even more damaging and suggestive



They may be.

They shouldn't have motor-controlled and sensed wheels responding to players' bets - that is, ''if they do" - when they can have air gun-pushed wheels with no magnetic sensors on them, and non-interfering cameras on them to track spin results. This is the honest answer to automated roulette!

If you mix casino wheel speed control, and player bet size tracking, then the casino or manufacturer themselves will gaffe the results, - in a claimed innocent attempt to "eliminate AP" when they are now committing it themselves! That is NOT how you do it.....

The magnets or motors on the wheels can both detect and also control speed - faster or slower - the speed of the wheel, based on whether they are "reading" a wheel, or 'pushing or slowing" a wheel, by reading the magnet, or by applying pulses to the magnet - like a motor.

By having just an air gun type pusher on the wheel, to free spin and accelerate the wheel, - and just having optical sensors to read the wheel - then no magnetic or motor influence can possibly be applied to affect the wheel.

This could have been done.

On regular Table Game wheels, there are no motors or magnets, just an optical non-magnetic reader to read the wheel without any influence occurring, - to update the tote board of spin results for the dealer and players. There, it is a free-spinning wheel without possible influence.

An optical wheel reader can resolve all numbers spun - and bets made on a dis-attached computer system to resolve bets without influence by the house. The bet resolver does not have to be attached to "wheel control" - to know what the players had bet and what they should be paid per spin. It 'can" be mis-used to gaffe the wheel speed, which is the same 'speed tacking crime" that the AP players are using, but in the guilty casino's electronic hands now.

Because on electric machines, where the wheel is propelled by an electro-magnet motor - the same motor can also control and slow down the wheel mid-spin.

If the wheel were pushed by a mechanical or air gun arm, there would be no motors or magnets attached onto the wheel - which can also control wheel position and speed in relation to the bets made, - to "fix outcomes."

The wheel is supposed to spin freely without any further or possible electronic manipulation, mid-round or mid-spin, from the point the ball is release into its groove. If late bets are a player-clocking issue, then close the betting off in an earlier point, much in the way a dice dealing stickman accepts no late bets after the dice are out, and cannot be booked without the late bets set up.

It may cost a few hands or spins an hour - but there would be no fraud possible.

Counter-Gaffing the wheel against AP players is a gaffe itself by the manufacturer themselves! Removing late bets, and having a natural, unbiased and natural wheel with no late bets OR wheel influence is the answer. It'll cost a few later bets per hour - but that was the problem all long.

This should be done.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Mar 30, 2017
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onenickelmiracle
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March 30th, 2017 at 7:13:14 PM permalink
If the game should be beatable, but it's not being beaten at all, that would be the proof. If it's being beaten, there's proof the game isn't gaffed. There would be security surveillance watching the players as a countermeasure, which would be the perfect response whether it's gaffed or not. The employee didn't say that though. Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.

The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe. Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.
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DiscreteMaths2
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March 30th, 2017 at 9:04:01 PM permalink
Quote: TomG

Can't there be a way to prevent wheel clocking while still keeping the game random?

Anytime the game feels "threatened," it just gives the wheel an extra kick mid-spin (like tapping the gas pedal on your car). To almost anyone playing the game, it would pass every test for randomness.



This is my thought as well. Although for me it stems from a position of ignorance of not knowing what exactly about a roulette wheel makes it behave sufficiently random for gambling purposes.
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Paigowdan
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onenickelmiracle
March 30th, 2017 at 9:40:55 PM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

If the game should be beatable, but it's not being beaten at all, that would be the proof.


Another question might be, - are these roulette machines being seriously played in comparison to the tables, - so we can tell?
I have returned to dealing at Fiesta H. (on the late night/overnight shift), - and the Interblock roulette wheel machine (a competitor) seems absolutely untouched. Been back six weeks there, and I haven't seen a single player on it late night/early morning touch it. I have seen and dealt some good overnight "real table" roulette, BJ, PGP, and crap table action, even UTH at 4AM. I know during the overnight hours it is absolutely untouched, and I would assume the monthly lease is in the thousands, may high hundreds. The thing is considerably larger than a Lincoln Continental, and it is silent all the time. The thing is the size of a four-table pit, and it is always dead. I believe it may be under the slot department. I KNOW it is not under the table games department, personnel-wise. I do not think our TGD would lease such a thing.

Quote: oneniklemiracle

If it's being beaten, there's proof the game isn't gaffed.


No. It can be beaten and gaffed at the same time, just one party doing a lousier (or better) job of it..
But I don't think we can tell from the results at a few locals casinos or a gagged, hinted to issue. It would take at least some action and clean review to determine that, and those numbers, if greater than zero, are in the Slot Manager's/Table Games Shift Manager's office, and I assume, also under a corporate gag order, clearly. The gag order might be under the product removal notice, too, for all we know.

Quote: ONM

There would be security surveillance watching the players as a countermeasure, which would be the perfect response whether it's gaffed or not.


I've never seen anyone notice it, no less play it. If it were noticed, someone might put an IV drip on it and say a Rosary or something. A White elephant walk-around feature on the floor if there ever was one, simply a huge ghost presence. It even has a four-spin football-like "touchdown bet' on it, as we can see in the pit from its flashing adverts. Probably costs more in electrical usage in its idle time than it sees in daily table game drop. I think its numbers may fall under the slot department, if not through the floor. Maybe I can't say this, I'll have to ask some swing shift workers I tap off games getting in tonight if anyone plays it, coming on duty. I'll do this tonight (actually Friday morning overnight). We also had the automatic 'automat' electronic poker table, and the bubble crap machine, which also had no action, and came and went.

Quote: ONM

Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.


In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ("cap"), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.

Quote: ONM

The way I understand the accusation, if a player is trying to game the machine, the machine reverts to a computerized rng to land the ball, but if the bets don't scare the machines, gravity and the loss of momentum are allowed to do their thing, because the assumed hold is safe.


Ah....so it doesn't go into Cheating mode unless, of course, it feels threatened or cheated itself, and by a computer algorithm written by a paranoid programmer. I get it.
If so, the machine is alive - and in the worst of ways.
One would think a legitimate casino product wouldn't have such a mode, the "Justified Counter-Cheating" maneuver/mode. Okay, now I've seen everything, and the cyborg Arnold Schwarzenegger Sci-Fi movies now make sense to me.
Seriously, if a commercial gaming product has ANY sort of a cheating mode, it cannot be justified as a mere counter-cheating defense at all. A machine is either clean, or it is gaffed, which would be a VERY serious scenario for a gaming product.

Quote: ONM

Are people being asked to leave and no longer play roulette or is everyone welcome, is the question.


No. The machine, if it gets any action, just has people play on it, which is rare, and which I have yet to see, and I work in a casino right next to such a machine.
No one would get backed off, - I suppose that they'd just lose, and then leave, if they did play the thing. I have yet to see a hand-pay on that thing, no less a player.

Edit: I'll play the roulette machine Friday or Saturday.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Mar 30, 2017
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DiscreteMaths2
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March 30th, 2017 at 10:12:54 PM permalink
They aren't very popular machines. But they do get some action, mostly in places where the cheapest Roulette table in town is $10+ or its a location with no live table games.
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Paigowdan
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March 30th, 2017 at 10:20:24 PM permalink
Maybe so.
But at our house, with live tables of a minimum bet of $3 and a limit of $1,000, it's only the actual table game that gets the roulette action.
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onenickelmiracle
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March 31st, 2017 at 12:19:45 AM permalink
Quote: ONM

Seems reasonable the only way to protect a roulette wheel would be by looking at the players and bets, then not allowing gamblers who pose a risk. Maybe they didn't think to put on a charade to conceal a gaffe, if there is a gaffe.

In terms of game protection,
1. You'd need to have some action in order to have some back-offs, and;
2. there's no way to past-post ("cap"), pinch, or color-change active bets on an electronic machine, but again, that assumes the machine thing gets action, and besides, we've seen little (none, actually) of that in the pit.
3. Back-offs on roulette are EXTREMELY rare, and mostly alcohol-related/public disturbance in nature. Capping and pinching, and past-posting bets are generally felonies, and when caught, are not in the normal AP/card-counting category.

Copied and pasted the above.

I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.


Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.

My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.
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Paigowdan
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March 31st, 2017 at 2:46:11 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle


I meant if someone was skillful to visually predict the outcome, the casino would not want them to play. When I wrote about the bets, I meant the bets always coming in late and were skillful. Obviously people will bet late just randomly and also not skillful predictions, they'll keep them.


True - but the threat of AP players, (and not the simple late bettors), combined with the fact that the motorized wheel is continuously controlable under computer control, results in a scenario where they may have, or actually had, taken away the truly free spinning wheel motion to where they are adjusting the speed to deliberately steer it away from big bets.

Even if partially done and partially successful, the very presence of this possible wheel control action or feature (or its attempt to do so) makes the wheel biased and controlled against some of the bigger players' bets. The fact that small bettors or early bettors don't undergo these attempts at "wheel control" on them doesn't change the fact that some wheel control attempts are present in certain cases.

If a gaffe is present intermittently, it is still present and attempted. It is like a magnet under a crap table using magnetic dice: if it is only used against some big players some of the time, it is still used as game influence. None is acceptable, and any use is unacceptable, in terms of having an on-the-level clean game.

I totally understand a game designer/manufacturer wanting to have an AP-proof game, but a casino house or manufacturer using AP (wheel timing) against an AP player (a wheel clocker who may be timing the wheel) is committing exactly the same despised action, if it is done. A motorized wheel is a controllable wheel, and if the wheel is controlled after betting is closed to respond to a big player's bet size, it's a gaffed wheel.

Quote: ONM

Also, late night playing might not mean much. If people were to want to play this to make money, they might want day hours and to blend into a crowd. If someone was beating it, playing 24 hours a day might be a flag to the casino. Maybe nobody is playing during the day, beats me.


True. It may get enough action to be viable at various places. Certainly depends on the house and the local acceptance of the device. Some places may have action on it. Some places it is fairly dead.

Quote: ONM

My understanding of the threatened mode didn't make sense in practicality. Yes it wouldn't work, because it would just seem weird by the way the ball moved and landed. Sounds more like a fake-out, where the ball appears to want to land somewhere, but doesn't, allegedly. I don't really believe it, just suspicious and can understand how a casino could use its power when when vulnerable, and not think anything of it. I've seen it on must hits being the worst paying slots in casinos, not much of a guarantee, so Machiavellian.


It may often fail. And it would/could be so subtle as to not be noticed by 'biological units,' or human beings, who can't detect the minor but possibly significant speed changes by the human eye in play. It wouldn't look weird, necessarily. It would look unnoticed, as just another ball drop into a pocket.

It is the attempts at it, and that it might work, that is troubling. It is when the casino house or designer is using speed changing techniques after the close of betting that is serious; imagine a wheel clocking player being able to control and brake a roulette wheel towards his bets unnoticed, or his attempts at it. Then image the house doing this, the very same thing. Who is allowed to do this by gaming? I say neither.

A controlled wheel that is responding to the location of players bets is an attempt at game influence, - if it is done.
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charliepatrick
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March 31st, 2017 at 3:15:07 AM permalink
(i) In most casinos I know the electronic Roulette allows bets at a lower level than at live tables. You also still have the option to bet on Table#1 rather than the "Auto". Some players like it because they aren't pushed around by others trying to get their bets on. From a casino viewpoint I can imagine it requires fewer staff so can run 24/hr.

(ii) Suppose a company advertised that they did add a random bump to the wheel then it's an interesting argument whether the game is still defined as Roulette. In the UK this might mean it becomes a fruit machine and different rules apply. I have seen a machine using a bingo cage with 37 balls, and am guessing that still counts as Roulette (but I haven't ever checked it out). Obviously if they only did something when it felt threatened then my feeling is the machine has introduced intelligence, so it isn't truly random and arguably might no longer be Roulette.

(iii) In the UK most casino fruit machines are random, but ones found in pubs can be compensated (i.e. will tend to pay less after a series of big wins) and licensed slightly differently. This introduces another factor: whether the game is random or compensated. I'm guessing "table games" in a casino have to be random and any other game (e.g. fruit machine) that can pay big wins has to remain random. Any game that isn't random might be considered a compensated game, has to advertise the fact and have a lower payout limit.
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darkoz
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March 31st, 2017 at 6:39:19 AM permalink
Question for the wizard

Trying to think how the wheel would steer the ball im guessing either altering the wheel speed or air pressure inside the glass dome

Either way the computer would need to know the speed of the ball in order to steer it away from the late bettors numbers

I.e. the wheel has its own form of wheel clocking

If so then it may not be a stretch to assume it always wheel clocks to determine if an actual bettor is even near the expected outcome

And if this is the case then yout methodology would be faltered. You stated that as neither u nor mr c were wheel clockers you simply bet quintets centered on the number 2 spins previously an outcome. The software may have been determining that your wheel clocking was in error (as inevitably it would since your actual wagers were not based on actual wheel clocking and in those instances no counter measures would have been appropriate

However it seems you may have discounted this possibility as you attempted to trigger the allegged countermeasures simply by late betting in centered quintuplets

Can u clarify if this is a possibility
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gordonm888
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March 31st, 2017 at 8:30:50 AM permalink
Of course, there is zero point zero chance of a lawsuit by Interblock.

1. It would call attention to the issue. The media attention to the lawsuit would cause damage to the industry in general and to Interblock specifically.

2. The Wizard has absolutely done nothing to object to. He made no AP play, lost money and wrote some internet posts analyzing his losses and concluding that there was no conclusive evidence of "countermeasure devices" on the Interblock roulette wheel. He was careful with his words.

3. Lawsuits are expensive. In fact they are worse than that -they are an un-bounded expense for an open-ended period of time. No business wants that - businesses are all about avoiding lawsuits, not entering into them. The only people who win in lawsuits are the lawyers.

4. Any Interblock lawsuit on what Michael Shackleford has done would most likely be in jeopardy of penalties associated with frivolous lawsuits.

5. The Wizard's posts have already been copied by WOV forumites and would be propagated on the internet by multiple individuals if the Wizard was forced to remove them. They already are immortal - they will live forever.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on Mar 31, 2017
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gordonm888
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March 31st, 2017 at 8:57:27 AM permalink
These posts by the Wizard are something that the entire forum should be able to rally around. I think this investigation into the Interblock Organic Roulette Wheel has been one of Shackleford's finest moments.

Surely no one on this forum would support the use of any gambling devices that are rigged to depart from randomness without any notice to the gamblers. No forum member should object to such an investigation when conducted with such integrity and high standards and reported on in such an exemplary fashion.

Reasonable people can disagree on the significance of what the Wizard has posted and on how to interpret the data and his words. But I am dismayed that several forum members have made posts that are hostile to the fact that he has said anything at all about this subject. This thread has had the effect of identifying to me some of the devils in this forum.

Praise to Michael Shackleford and the Wizard of Vegas forum.
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Wizard
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March 31st, 2017 at 10:08:39 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Trying to think how the wheel would steer the ball im guessing either altering the wheel speed or air pressure inside the glass dome

Either way the computer would need to know the speed of the ball in order to steer it away from the late bettors numbers



Quote:

If so then it may not be a stretch to assume it always wheel clocks to determine if an actual bettor is even near the expected outcome

And if this is the case then yout methodology would be faltered. You stated that as neither u nor mr c were wheel clockers you simply bet quintets centered on the number 2 spins previously an outcome. The software may have been determining that your wheel clocking was in error (as inevitably it would since your actual wagers were not based on actual wheel clocking and in those instances no counter measures would have been appropriate



Like I said, the alleged red flags were late bets, big bets, and section bets. I never said it tested for player accuracy as well. The allegation was that the game would countermeasures if these red flags were raised even if the arc chosen was random. It is a fair question to ask that if the game could steer the ball accurately from sections bet, why didn't it test for accuracy? I don't have an answer. I was just confirming or denying an accusation presented to me.

Quote:

However it seems you may have discounted this possibility as you attempted to trigger the allegged countermeasures simply by late betting in centered quintuplets

Can u clarify if this is a possibility



Yes, it is possible that while red flags were set off, the game may have judged that the sections bet were overall random, looking at the history bet and so it let the ball land randomly. Much like a casino floorman may let a perceived bad card counter, which many are, play blackjack.
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darkoz
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March 31st, 2017 at 1:26:16 PM permalink
Was looking into it in nys. Can tell u now at least one casino with 2 interblock organic roulette the ball does not spin until bets are disallowed. Other company e-roulette at the same casino gives 4 seconds

Any possibilty interblock has been approached and already moved to correct this
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Keyser
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March 31st, 2017 at 2:08:19 PM permalink
The game has a servo motor running it. You can clearly see the rotor changing speeds during the spin AFTER no more bets has been called.

In general, roulette players are some of the weirdest people you will meet. I once met one that would cover his electronic game screen with cardboard because he thought surveillance was watching to see what he'd bet so that they could steer the ball away from his numbers! They tend to be very conspiracy minded from the get go. (And NO I'm not talking about Mr. S or whatever his name is here.) I'm referring to the real roulette junkies. Many roulette players won't play the electronic versions of it because they don't allow bets after the ball is spun *even when they're betting on the outside/red/black/etc..* It's because they simply don't trust the game. They think it will "shoot against them." Again, if a machine calls off bets before a ball is spun, roulette players will see the game as being RIGGED against them. So reprogramming a machine to call "no more bets" before the ball is spun, or a ball that bounces to much just spooks the junkies away from the game. It takes away their sense of control over their gambling adventure.

Changing wheels speeds after no more bets also scares the regulars off and drives them back to the live games. I've talked with the avid players and I know how they feel. Roulette players/keno players/lotto players...they see conspiracies all the time. In some ways they are like birds. They startle easily.

Interblok appears to have done a fine job of giving players a since of control of some of their games. Much much better than Shuffle Master has. For example, the big six wheel where the player gets to pull the handle. That ridiculous handle (of course random as heck), makes players believe that they have a fair shot at winning money. The roulette games are really no different. As long as the players can't really see the wheel changing speeds after no more bets, they don't see the ball bouncing too much, and they can place their bets after the ball is spinning... will feel as though they're getting a fair shake. Take away any of it, and they'll wig out! I believe this is why IB has dominated their competition at the same games. I'm sure the games are sufficiently random as they are.


Now here's what most people don't know. All of these new LIVE roulette wheels that you see around town, at the Bellagio, Ven, MGM, etc ( the Cammegh wheels) they have an RRS (Random rotor servo) system in them that purposefully changes the wheel speed after no more bets has been placed... to thwart advantage players. In other words, like the machines the rotors change speeds during the spin. It's just that the roulette junkies don't perceive the speed changes like they do on some of the machines. Also the live games still allow bets after the ball is spun, which is why the regulars still prefer them. I suppose if you want to argue you could argue that the live wheels are attempting to beat the players as well.

I prefer a live game or good game of craps. I feel that I have more control over the game than I would if I was playing a machine. And yes, I know the dice are supposedly rigged too!



-Keyser
Last edited by: Keyser on Mar 31, 2017
StrangeMage
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March 31st, 2017 at 3:44:10 PM permalink
very interesting study. Thanks wizard for sharing this, i think this sets a good standard for other people who think they're being cheated to seriously analyze their claim with raw data only. and with a sample size that is significant.

interesting to me that this game is being promoted. i understand eliminating the croupier already improves the profitability of the game, but i think when there's machine interaction in anyway, people are more skeptical. if it were me running the show, i'd probably employ video screens to make bets (even offering options to buy 7 local bets in a row to speed up betting) and do payouts and have a live person pitch the ball. every roulette table i've ever seen spends 40% of it's time making payouts and another 10-15% of its time handling buy ins and cash outs. having the machine do the payouts would accelerate the game by at least double, and a live person with a normal wheel would eliminate the skepticism of any players. now that dealer might be bored out of their mind, but hey, that's why its a job.
Keyser
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March 31st, 2017 at 3:46:38 PM permalink
These days, I feel that players need to feel like they have a fair shot at winning some money. Which is something they don't feel they currently have at many of the games, like 6/5 blackjack. This is why they choose to buy beer instead. You can always trust beer. But only one beer... because remember, you also have to pay for parking.

Last edited by: Keyser on Mar 31, 2017
Sandybestdog
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April 2nd, 2017 at 6:49:28 PM permalink
I sat down and watched one of these a couple of times for awhile. I timed the wheel, the ball and where it tended to hit. It was all pretty consistent except the wheel spin. It was constantly changing speeds and would frequently do it right after the ball was released.

Changing the amount of time after the ball is released to still make bets is irrelevant. If you were clocking this thing you could make your bets with 30 seconds remaining because you would know when and where the ball would be released and could time it accordingly. But the wheel speed absolutely changed randomly and to different speeds. I don't know, this is just my observation. I could be missing something. I certainly wouldn't be talking here if I knew how to beat it.
odiousgambit
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April 3rd, 2017 at 3:14:37 AM permalink
Steve Rambam, a private detective who has gained some notoriety, says he has to warn prospective clients who are trying to find missing family members that odds are pretty good that they will not like what he finds. Gave an example, such as a missing father- it may turn out he just walked away from the family - other similar disappointing findings are quite possible. Yet he will report what he finds, thus the warning.

As for Mr. S. and others - do they get this warning before engaging the Wizard?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Shoalcat
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April 5th, 2017 at 11:21:24 AM permalink
Good afternoon. Thanks for the add. A couple of points and a couple questions.
I was just in Vegas this last week and stumbled on this roulette. I go about 1-2 times a year with about $2500. After two days and $1600. Lost. I start seeing a pattern. I come home and thinking through it. This game was really bugging me. Now questioning the legitimacy of this game. Sorry if I go long and scattered.

Thought about it this hard; that I wonder if is something like this that maybe others have seen? So I started researching of anyone experienced this and came across this thread.
If saying that the machine can feel threatened and compensate for it. That in itself is a way that a casino can manipulate the outcome. At that time, the casino has a very large house edge and not random as it would be on a live wheel.

You say the wheel can speed up or slow down. Which is also true in a live table roulette. When you a have a dealer hand spin the wheel. It will not always be the same speed. But as a person can watch the ball to wheel release and make a beat in favor. The casino could use the same technology to release the ball at perfect time to get a very large house win. A live dealer can not precisely release the ball as a computer can. That in itself is a manipulative way to give the house major edge. It's not random "as if playing on a live table" by any means. A dice and ball have no memory. BUT if you can adjust speed and timing, you as a casino up the odds and do not allow the machine "computer operated" to mimic real life play.

This machine is in Harrah's beside the escalators. A few things I came to notice. Was on a machine that I was playing min bet $3.00 and max table bet $8900. My wife is playing $5.00 red. I look at the history across bottom. Predominantly red black even couple reds here and the a black two-three more reds. More leaning red side. I start betting $10.00 red and then doubling on a lost. It went 9 straight black. I told her WTH and don't play the next spin and then a red. I started over and went 11 straight black. "Bad luck"? Could the machine recognize a betting pattern and compensate for the bet? I saw the game aggressively go blacks one after another and coupe Reds mixed here and there. The board up top of history and best hit numbers go from mostly red numbers to all but 6 black numbers with in a 2 hour span. I said the eye in the sky and there's a magnet on this. Multiple times I experienced or sat back and watched this happen to others. I back of my bet to $3.00 and played for about 20 spins. A guy across from me was playing $35.00 double zero. He became the big bet on the table. Three times back to back 1 red. Two of the three times I really notice the ball "swirl". Not hit the shoe and bounce across numbers. It came across the shoe dip below the numbers and in a odd looking swirl back into the way the wheel was spinning with a "5 inch oval" swirl around double 00 and land on 1 red. Went off the shoe down below to the number 1 and loop back over the number to the right of 00 across to opposite of the direction of wheel spin and back down into 1. Like a magnet that had a reverse polarity on 00. It did not hit 1 red and continued to bounce away from the spin down the board. Was very odd. That got my thinking, could they see what and where your betting and change the play to accommodate the bet to house favor? Or could they write it into the computers software? Either way, it is not legit and should be brought to the public. I seriously thought of requesting the game be look at by the gaming board. But I think the thought of that knowledge being know by the public would lose casino credibility and the gaming board would shadow the corruption. Which in itself is sad and unethical. I lost my faith in going to Vegas to play and not feel cheated this last weekend. That they use technology to benefit the growth of "the Vegas" concept. I don't mind losing money. I go for entertainment, but when the casino uses it's behind the scenes technology against me to rake my pockets. It's not right. It's also a slippery slope. If it's not corrected, where would it end on the casino doing what it can to take as much as possible?

I ponder why would you submit to a gag if there wasn't something fishy about this game? That in it's self leaves me not believing what there doing is legit.
someone
someone
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April 5th, 2017 at 5:58:13 PM permalink
Wizard,
Two questioned that hopefully you are allowed to answer about the experiments.
In the first experiment you state that the arc selected was centered on the winning number 2 spins back., but didn't say how the arc was selected in the second experiment. Was it the same as the first or was the second an attempt at clocking?
You stated the second experiment was conducted on a combination of 3 machines. The combined results of these machines was inconclusive. Did any of the individual machine results look suspicious (albeit with a smaller sample size) or were all 3 individual results as mundane as the combined?
odiousgambit
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April 6th, 2017 at 2:09:00 AM permalink
Shoalcat, some King Lear for you

Quote:

When the mind's free,
The body's delicate: the tempest in my mind
Doth from my senses take all feeling else
Save what beats there...
No, I will weep no more. In such a night
To shut me out! ...
O, that way madness lies; let me shun that;
No more of that.

the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
DeMango
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April 6th, 2017 at 1:33:32 PM permalink
8 pages of nothing.
When all is said and done, there will be a lot more said then done.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
InTimeForSpace1
InTimeForSpace1
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April 7th, 2017 at 11:38:53 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

When all is said and done, there will be a lot more said then done.

To take a stance on something is the first pitfall; to not take a stance is the second. There are no non-issues. In any event, words are like sap. Boil the heck out of them to get syrup. And, of course, stick with the numbers.
Believers are the ones who keep at it long after they've been told it can't be done. On the other hand, the real experts shouldn't care about the crackpots. But, if the wrong answer begs the question, then the wrong question begs the answer.
DeMango
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April 7th, 2017 at 11:43:10 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

8 pages of nothing.
When all is said and done, there will be a lot more said then done.



Still more said than done!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
InTimeForSpace1
InTimeForSpace1
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April 7th, 2017 at 12:09:55 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Still more said than done!

Of course, when we make life a game, say, there are ultimately no winners or optimal strategies.
Believers are the ones who keep at it long after they've been told it can't be done. On the other hand, the real experts shouldn't care about the crackpots. But, if the wrong answer begs the question, then the wrong question begs the answer.
MaxPen
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May 9th, 2017 at 3:10:34 PM permalink
I can confirm from an inside source that there was significant action taken by Interblock to alleviate the opportunity for advantage play on these machines. Whether or not they were intentionally gaffed has yet to be determined. Interblock is also facing a number of lawsuits from various casinos directly related to these games. Especially Florida casinos.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
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May 9th, 2017 at 3:22:25 PM permalink
Quote: someone

Wizard,
Two questioned that hopefully you are allowed to answer about the experiments.
In the first experiment you state that the arc selected was centered on the winning number 2 spins back., but didn't say how the arc was selected in the second experiment. Was it the same as the first or was the second an attempt at clocking?
You stated the second experiment was conducted on a combination of 3 machines. The combined results of these machines was inconclusive. Did any of the individual machine results look suspicious (albeit with a smaller sample size) or were all 3 individual results as mundane as the combined?



It was the same, the center of the arc was the winning number two bets before.

Yes, of the three machines some results were worse than others. Of course, you would expect that in a fair game, so it proves nothing.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
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