prozema
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February 24th, 2017 at 5:59:51 AM permalink
Hi,

I started learning to count BJ in November. It's like a gateway drug, and I fully acknowledge I'm still learning plays, but I've taken to vulturing and I've found a few hole card opportunities as well at several local non-vegas casinos.

I've been playing as a low roller, no single bets over $60, and I've found that I've made a modest amount after about 100 hours of play. I'm still not convinced that I'm actually doing everything right, but I figure time will tell as I rack up more hours.

Anyway, I no longer get any mailers from my local casinos. I used to get a mailer every month from multiple local casinos with bonus comp dollars, free play, drawing entries, free buffets, and things like that... But they have all stopped.

My question is whether this is heat or not. Should I worry about returning? Was it a mistake to use a players card? When I go back, should I stop using a players card?

BTW... The people on this board are AWESOME.

Finally, I'm heading to Las Vegas next week and I'm super pumped!
Ibeatyouraces
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prozema
February 24th, 2017 at 6:07:01 AM permalink
Quote: prozema

Hi,

I started learning to count BJ in November. It's like a gateway drug, and I fully acknowledge I'm still learning plays, but I've taken to vulturing and I've found a few hole card opportunities as well at several local non-vegas casinos.

I've been playing as a low roller, no single bets over $60, and I've found that I've made a modest amount after about 100 hours of play. I'm still not convinced that I'm actually doing everything right, but I figure time will tell as I rack up more hours.

Anyway, I no longer get any mailers from my local casinos. I used to get a mailer every month from multiple local casinos with bonus comp dollars, free play, drawing entries, free buffets, and things like that... But they have all stopped.

My question is whether this is heat or not. Should I worry about returning? Was it a mistake to use a players card? When I go back, should I stop using a players card?

BTW... The people on this board are AWESOME.

Finally, I'm heading to Las Vegas next week and I'm super pumped!


In some places, being "no mailed" is the first counter measure casinos use. I'd stop using your card unless you're already well known by face and name. Definitely don't use it vulturing slots/VP.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Mission146
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February 24th, 2017 at 10:47:22 AM permalink
Prozema,

I agree with IBYA, but it might not even necessarily be a counter. If you used your card while vulturing and didn't play much other than that (i.e. to your usual levels) you probably killed your own ADT which your casino may base the mail upon. Some make adjustments quicker than others.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
prozema
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February 24th, 2017 at 12:59:11 PM permalink
That's a good point. My slot play dropped to almost nothing if you don't count VP. I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.
Wizardofnothing
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prozema
February 24th, 2017 at 4:11:16 PM permalink
never use your card on those oppurtunities if you are just starting out and are not well versed in the intricacies at this point
No longer hiring, don’t ask because I won’t hire you either
TomG
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February 24th, 2017 at 4:25:00 PM permalink
Much more likely than being flagged as a counter is being flagged for near perfect basic strategy, which can drop your adt and such to very low levels
prozema
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February 24th, 2017 at 4:35:00 PM permalink
I'm pretty sure the pit doesn't know basic strategy at this place. I thought I was going to start a fight splitting 9s against a dealer 8.... Don't even get me started on a soft 19 double story.
prozema
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February 22nd, 2018 at 5:44:39 PM permalink
To my surprise, one year later... What shows up in my inbox today? A free play offer and even a BOGO buffet. I guess avoiding using a card while vulturing and a little slot cover play worked... Or maybe it was a handful of hours of live poker where I got a bonus for losing with pocket aces... maybe they felt sorry for me when their extremely talented Mississippi stud dealer pulled out the preshuffled Chinese prison cards and kicked my teeth in... None of those details are important...

Now, the free play offer is very low... $10 per week... I guess I get to make a move now... I'd like to get them to up the offer with our losing my arse.

What would you do?

I could ignore the offer and hope they raise it...
I could play the offer in a HD or a spy vs spy that's all loaded up.
I could play it off in a low edge vp machine
I could play some more live poker or a table game and maybe some ux vulturing would look like I just felt like playing a few hands while I was there to play something else...

One other interesting thing... This is a casino that will change ownership later this year as part of the Penn / pinnacle deal.
Lucca3927
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February 22nd, 2018 at 5:52:33 PM permalink
I get offers from the local casinos (Blackhawk, CO-not Vegas) and they seem to alternate from bad to good for no particular reason. The last mailer offered me zip after my last session, which was long, and a lot after sessions that were short. I don't think that there is a lot of consistency with them.

If you're truly interested in counting then you need to stay under the radar and not even bother with the mailer freebies in the first place.

Just out of curiosity, what city are you playing at? I think that the smaller, non-Vegas casinos would be less likely to notice, much less catch, a counter in the first place.
Last edited by: Lucca3927 on Feb 22, 2018
"I should have bet black." - Winston Churchill .
prozema
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:08:12 PM permalink
I've pretty much abandoned counting blackjack in favor of more profitable options. I'm mean if I'm playing blackjack, I probably "kinda" count so I know when to take insurance, but im not going to give up watching a waitress walk away for a quarter of a precent... If I miss a few cards I'm ok with that.

Anyway, this casino is in the Midwest. I'm there a lot... Like almost every day. Does a more specific location matter?
Lucca3927
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:24:54 PM permalink
Quote: prozema

I've pretty much abandoned counting blackjack in favor of more profitable options. I'm mean if I'm playing blackjack, I probably "kinda" count so I know when to take insurance, but im not going to give up watching a waitress walk away for a quarter of a precent... If I miss a few cards I'm ok with that.

Anyway, this casino is in the Midwest. I'm there a lot... Like almost every day. Does a more specific location matter?



I can't say for sure, but I think that casinos like yours and mine are more like break in casinos for managers who want to move up so they're not as likely to be as skilled and able to pick out counters.
"I should have bet black." - Winston Churchill .
billryan
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:27:47 PM permalink
It depends. If you are a low roller at some of the bigger places, expect nothing.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
prozema
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:29:46 PM permalink
I think you are right, although there are a few stories floating around about counters being banned for "smelling bad"
prozema
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:34:22 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

It depends. If you are a low roller at some of the bigger places, expect nothing.



Good point. I'll consider that a vote for get as much value as you can out of it and don't sweat it.

On the other hand, while I don't have a top level card, I hit a mid level every year... I'm not playing to hit a card tier.
Lucca3927
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February 22nd, 2018 at 6:40:59 PM permalink
Quote: prozema



On the other hand, while I don't have a top level card, I hit a mid level every year... I'm not playing to hit a card tier.



I've never made it past a mid tier under any program, nor am I trying, but I don't think it's easy to do as a BJ and Craps player. Only the slot jockeys stand a chance amongst average players.
"I should have bet black." - Winston Churchill .
Rwcatskills
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February 22nd, 2018 at 9:14:54 PM permalink
There is so much more that goes into it than your last trip.
FCBLComish
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February 23rd, 2018 at 9:09:26 PM permalink
FOffers are generally based on 3 months play, NOT COUNTING THE MONTH PRIOR TO THE OFFER.

In April, you may get an offer for December, January, and February. They calculate and mail the offers before your March play has been considered. Many people do not realize this, and the fluctuation on their offers seems like it is calculated randomly.

Just my observation. YMMV
Beware, I work for the dark side.... We have cookies
bobbartop
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February 23rd, 2018 at 9:40:10 PM permalink
Quote: prozema

That's a good point. My slot play dropped to almost nothing if you don't count VP. I appreciate everyone sharing their thoughts.




This is why your mailers stopped. When did your slot play drop and when did you not get a mailer? Like someone else in the thread said, many casinos use 3 months and skip 1, others use 1 month and skip 1, sounds like it might have just caught up to you. Write things down so you can always look back and figure out what they are doing. Sometimes it's just impossible.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
FleaStiff
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February 24th, 2018 at 5:35:19 AM permalink
I'm fairly certain that mailers are subject to a very great time-lag and also subject to a great many different computer programs that attempting to divine some rhyme or reason to their provisions can be a misguided task.
RS
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February 24th, 2018 at 6:06:17 AM permalink
I wrote out a lot then decided shouldn't post all that.

Essentially, every casino's marketing system is different. They weight things differently than others, like theoretical loss, actual loss, time played, and other metrics. Some strictly look at the previous X time period, some look at the previous X, Y, and Z time periods, weighting each differently. Some will give you mail very soon (like 2 weeks) and others may take 3-4+ months. Also doesn't help ALL of these things may change at any given time and IME they can change frequently. It may even be so simple that the casino wants to target smaller players than bigger players so they give out more to smaller players than they did before and take some from the bigger players. Or vice versa. Or maybe they now have a bigger marketing budget or a smaller one. Or their budget is seasonal (trying to get people out to BFE during the winter might be difficult...during the summer, not so much). Many places will give different offers based on your vicinity to the casino.

Hell, maybe they wrote down your address incorrectly and it's not even going to your house.
AxelWolf
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February 24th, 2018 at 7:27:11 AM permalink
Quote: RS

I wrote out a lot then decided shouldn't post all that.

Essentially, every casino's marketing system is different. They weight things differently than others, like theoretical loss, actual loss, time played, and other metrics. Some strictly look at the previous X time period, some look at the previous X, Y, and Z time periods, weighting each differently. Some will give you mail very soon (like 2 weeks) and others may take 3-4+ months. Also doesn't help ALL of these things may change at any given time and IME they can change frequently. It may even be so simple that the casino wants to target smaller players than bigger players so they give out more to smaller players than they did before and take some from the bigger players. Or vice versa. Or maybe they now have a bigger marketing budget or a smaller one. Or their budget is seasonal (trying to get people out to BFE during the winter might be difficult...during the summer, not so much). Many places will give different offers based on your vicinity to the casino.

Hell, maybe they wrote down your address incorrectly and it's not even going to your house.

Ya, I would hate to see what you actully deleted.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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RogerKint
February 24th, 2018 at 8:10:50 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Ya, I would hate to see what you actully deleted.



Just the contents of his forthcoming AP book it looks like
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
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February 24th, 2018 at 8:14:45 AM permalink
I think RS wanted to start shouting "gimme an A gimme a D gimme a..."
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
prozema
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February 24th, 2018 at 9:46:40 AM permalink
If anyone ever feels like telling me something that they don't want to say in public, I will gladly accept instant messages. :-)

The more I think about this thread, I'm landing on "don't play for offers, just consider them icing on the cake."

Maybe I can engineer losses by ratholing chips at a table game...
Nathan
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February 24th, 2018 at 9:48:08 AM permalink
Quote: prozema

If anyone ever feels like telling me something that they don't want to say in public, I will gladly accept instant messages. :-)

The more I think about this thread, I'm landing on "don't play for offers, just consider them icing on the cake."

Maybe I can engineer losses by ratholing chips at a table game...



Bingo! ;)
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
djatc
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prozemaonenickelmiracle
February 24th, 2018 at 11:40:45 AM permalink
change your last name to something Asian like

???

profit
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
prozema
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February 24th, 2018 at 12:03:34 PM permalink
Oh man... Nathan said I've got it right... Now I'm worried I don't have it right. Of course if I knew I had it right in the first place, I wouldn't have posted... So, status unchanged I guess.

Hey... If I start pubically ranting about casinos cheating me on Indian soil and being cursed and what not... Will I get a bunch of really subtle hints to go along with non stop ribbing? Just kidding... :-)

I really to appreciate everyone weighing in!
onenickelmiracle
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February 24th, 2018 at 12:40:56 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

change your last name to something Asian like

???

profit

Dong
I am a robot.
darkoz
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February 24th, 2018 at 12:53:10 PM permalink
Quote: djatc

change your last name to something Asian like

???

profit



Jong un, Kim
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Nathan
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February 24th, 2018 at 1:03:58 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Jong un, Kim



LMAO! :D
In both The Hunger Games and in gambling, may the odds be ever in your favor. :D "Man Babes" #AxelFabulous "Olive oil is processed but it only has one ingredient, olive oil."-Even Bob, March 27/28th. :D The 2 year war is over! Woo-hoo! :D I sometimes speak in metaphors. ;) Remember this. ;) Crack the code. :D 8.9.13.25.14.1.13.5.9.19.14.1.20.8.1.14! :D "For about the 4096th time, let me offer a radical idea to those of you who don't like Nathan -- block her and don't visit Nathan's Corner. What is so complicated about it?" Wizard, August 21st. :D
AxelWolf
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February 24th, 2018 at 3:05:47 PM permalink
Edit: I put up the Wong link.

Ok, here we go...

♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
prozema
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RS
February 24th, 2018 at 4:47:07 PM permalink
I feel like I just got Rickrolled.
FleaStiff
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February 25th, 2018 at 2:38:51 AM permalink
Feel free to rat hole all the chips you want to but sometime try asking the Floor: How much is in my rack and how much is in my pocket? Don't be surprised if he gives a response that is exact.

Try fooling them if you want to but its much better to just relax and enjoy the game.
AxelWolf
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February 25th, 2018 at 3:40:07 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Feel free to rat hole all the chips you want to but sometime try asking the Floor: How much is in my rack and how much is in my pocket? Don't be surprised if he gives a response that is exact.

Is this from personal experience, or is this from what you have heard from others?

There is an "art" to taking chips off the table undetected. He should be able to do both, enjoy the game and RH. It may or may not help, I doubt it will hurt much.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
FleaStiff
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February 25th, 2018 at 5:15:23 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Is this from personal experience, or is this from what you have heard from others?

Both.
Lucca3927
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February 25th, 2018 at 6:58:29 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



There is an "art" to taking chips off the table undetected. He should be able to do both, enjoy the game and RH. It may or may not help, I doubt it will hurt much.



I don't think that there's any "art" to it, especially at a crowded table. While the dealers are settling bets, especially when the point is made or sevened out, they're to busy to even notice. They don't particularly care either.
"I should have bet black." - Winston Churchill .
Rwcatskills
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February 25th, 2018 at 7:50:21 AM permalink
I’d agree with fleastiff. Anything above red chips and some floor people will be spot on. Some are lax. But almost all are on top of black chips and above
DRich
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February 25th, 2018 at 11:01:13 AM permalink
Quote: Lucca3927

I don't think that there's any "art" to it, especially at a crowded table. While the dealers are settling bets, especially when the point is made or sevened out, they're to busy to even notice. They don't particularly care either.



I disagree, there is definitely an art to it. The dealer doesn't care but will tell the pitboss if asked. The best time to do it it is when someone is leaving the table. The pitboss will think that person took the chips.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
boymimbo
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February 25th, 2018 at 4:07:54 PM permalink
Correct. Small casinos always keep track of black and yell out black-in or out. Rat-holing greens will also raise attention as well.

I don't think much in the way of mailers happen for blackjack play. Your theo is very low and they figure that a $10 match play coupon is not going to bring you back to the property.

Take a look at your win-loss for last year and you might have a good idea of why you are not getting much in the way of offers.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
prozema
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February 26th, 2018 at 6:15:16 AM permalink
Does the frequency you log on to the casino players club web site to check offers make any difference?
darkoz
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prozema
February 26th, 2018 at 6:20:59 AM permalink
Quote: prozema

Does the frequency you log on to the casino players club web site to check offers make any difference?



No

Feel free to check as often as you like

I have heard of one casino which logs ip addresses and locks cards if multiple accounts are accessed from the same computer. That's a security issue and wont affect what you are doing
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
prozema
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February 26th, 2018 at 6:44:22 PM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

.

Take a look at your win-loss for last year and you might have a good idea of why you are not getting much in the way of offers.



Ok...

The "not for tax purposes" statement for 2017 at the casinos that just started offers again show a win of $220 at one and a loss of $385 at their sister property across town.

The casino that continues to no mail me shows a win of $3,600.

What do I get out of that? There is no breakdown by game.

PS... All these numbers are way off from what really happened.
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