Both sides betting for fun and profit
February 17th, 2017 at 10:33:52 PM
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Do most casinos let you hedge your freebet/matchplays with betting the other side? For example a $100 bet on banker, and $100 freebet on player on a baccarat table?
The reason why I ask is because I've heard you can't do that, but I've seen this once at a big casino where some guy won like $250k in promo chips at a poker tournament and played both sides with the promo chips.
Dealer asked the pit boss "hey can he do that?"
Pit boss says, "Yeah it's fine people do that all the time"
Is this specific to the casino, table limits, and pit boss? Anyone have experience hedging a shiz ton of chips like the poker tournament dude?
The reason why I ask is because I've heard you can't do that, but I've seen this once at a big casino where some guy won like $250k in promo chips at a poker tournament and played both sides with the promo chips.
Dealer asked the pit boss "hey can he do that?"
Pit boss says, "Yeah it's fine people do that all the time"
Is this specific to the casino, table limits, and pit boss? Anyone have experience hedging a shiz ton of chips like the poker tournament dude?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
February 17th, 2017 at 10:49:57 PM
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I've never been told, "No," on something like that, but the only instances during which I've actually done it have been with one person betting the cash and me betting the match play + cash, or vice-versa. I don't recall an instance in which I have actually tried to do it both ways by myself, though I would suggest it was pretty obvious what was being done on those occasions I've done it with someone else.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
February 18th, 2017 at 9:25:07 PM
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Some pit personnel definitely stop you from doing that.
Because they are idiots.
If you are betting equal amounts on, say, red and black in roulette --- with or without the suitable sized bet on the zeroes "in case," --- you are giving up 5.26% on each dollar wagered. You are reducing your variance, but not changing the EV of the game.
Casinos should embrace reduced variance --- because it reduces the variance on their side as well. With the normal amount of variance, basically the casino always wins. Given a lack of AP play (which is what we're talking about if a guy is wanting to bet both sides), the only way casinos can be hurt is if somebody gets really lucky. Betting both sides prevents you from getting really lucky (or unlucky, for that matter).
Insofar as the guy with $250K in promo chips --- the casino has already given that away, probably in a drawing or maybe to the winner of a tournament. That amount has already been budgeted in whatever event was happening when the chips were awarded. They should want to pay it off with as little variance as possible --- and letting the player play both sides is exactly the right way to accomplish that goal.
If a pit boss won't let you do this, and you really want to, come back on a different shift and try again. It may well be that boss's policy rather than a house policy. If they don't let you do it, find the game with the lowest house edge (perhaps the don't bet on craps laying maximum odds) and bet relatively small compared to the size of the total amount of chips you have to get rid of. That is very likely to be more profitable than betting both sides of games where the house has a bigger edge.
Although there is no guarantee in this (which is what players betting both sides really want) your EV will be higher and usually you'll end up with more.
(Disclaimer: I haven't played this kind of chip in about 20 years. Several Vegas casinos had policies against it at that time. Things change in two decades --- but I'm sure it's true that many pit personnel are still idiots.)
Because they are idiots.
If you are betting equal amounts on, say, red and black in roulette --- with or without the suitable sized bet on the zeroes "in case," --- you are giving up 5.26% on each dollar wagered. You are reducing your variance, but not changing the EV of the game.
Casinos should embrace reduced variance --- because it reduces the variance on their side as well. With the normal amount of variance, basically the casino always wins. Given a lack of AP play (which is what we're talking about if a guy is wanting to bet both sides), the only way casinos can be hurt is if somebody gets really lucky. Betting both sides prevents you from getting really lucky (or unlucky, for that matter).
Insofar as the guy with $250K in promo chips --- the casino has already given that away, probably in a drawing or maybe to the winner of a tournament. That amount has already been budgeted in whatever event was happening when the chips were awarded. They should want to pay it off with as little variance as possible --- and letting the player play both sides is exactly the right way to accomplish that goal.
If a pit boss won't let you do this, and you really want to, come back on a different shift and try again. It may well be that boss's policy rather than a house policy. If they don't let you do it, find the game with the lowest house edge (perhaps the don't bet on craps laying maximum odds) and bet relatively small compared to the size of the total amount of chips you have to get rid of. That is very likely to be more profitable than betting both sides of games where the house has a bigger edge.
Although there is no guarantee in this (which is what players betting both sides really want) your EV will be higher and usually you'll end up with more.
(Disclaimer: I haven't played this kind of chip in about 20 years. Several Vegas casinos had policies against it at that time. Things change in two decades --- but I'm sure it's true that many pit personnel are still idiots.)
February 19th, 2017 at 7:52:41 AM
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Quote: BobDancer.
(Disclaimer: I haven't played this kind of chip in about 20 years. Several Vegas casinos had policies against it at that time. Things change in two decades --- but I'm sure it's true that many pit personnel are still idiots.)
+1
What you wrote is true, they should take the bet, but this is theory and not what might actually happen.
I usually get my comps or gifts in freeplay whenever I can since they are worth a lot more, but in some cases it's only free table games bets. I'm not interested in a win or lose outcome if I can hedge.
Maybe they want you to "risk" the money in the hopes you lose and chase?
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
March 22nd, 2017 at 1:02:38 AM
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Very intersting thread. Thank you Bob for your informative post.
Wanda Wilcox: “I can’t stand people. I hate them.”
Chinaski: “Oh, yeah?”
Wanda: “You hate them?”
Chinaski: “No, but I seem to feel better when they’re not around.”
Barfly, starring Mickey Rourke
March 22nd, 2017 at 1:50:51 AM
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The reason they decline sometimes is that most likely the bonus chips cannot be withdraw and need to be wagered - by betting on the both colors in the roulette yo you can wage them with -EV of just ~5% as you say. So you basically withdraw ~240 of your $250 and they didn't like the withdraws at all. Its silly I agree, winners bring more people on the tables than losers. As casino owner you should be happy every time when someone leave with some winnings - more often than not he will come back, maybe with friends, maybe with more money. But this require long term vision, and sadly most of the people lack this.
