Dragon Dragon Baccarat Progressive opened at Gold Coast Casino, Las Vegas

Dragon Dragon Baccarat Progressive opened at Gold Coast Casino last Wednesday. The rules of play are:

1) Must wager $2, no more, no less
2) Payout Table

Combined Banker & Player Cards ......................... Payout
6 of a Kind .......................................................................... 100% Jackpot*
5 of a Kind ............................................................................ 10% Jackpot*
Double 3 of a Kind ............................................................ $500 for $2
4 of a Kind .............................................................................. $100 for $2
3 of a Kind on 4 Cards Total** ..................................... $50 for $2

*Jackpot will be evenly divided among the winning players
**Neither Player nor Banker draws

3) The progressive is on regular tables, not light tables. There is no special hardware and software for this bet.

4) The progressive is on two linked tables. Both tables also have Tie Max side bet which has grown to be on 5 tables at Gold Coast now.

Welcome to play.

Congrats on your opening! Is this your Nevada trial, or has that already been done? Who is distributing?

I get 1-in-957609 (note. 6-of-a-Kind can only occur with 0's, 2's, 5's, 6's and 7's). At a game pace of 40 rounds per hour, that's 23940 hours. With 2 linked tables open, that's about 11970 hours or once every 1.37 years. That is not going to be an attractive progressive, IMO.

Thank you, barb.

Progressive is a side bet, thus no need to have a Nevada trial. It's an approved bet, a real deal; being trialed only by the market. No distributor involved so far.

Quote: teliot

I get 1-in-957609 (note. 6-of-a-Kind can only occur with 0's, 2's, 5's, 6's and 7's). At a game pace of 40 rounds per hour, that's 23940 hours. With 2 linked tables open, that's about 11970 hours or once every 1.37 years. That is not going to be an attractive progressive, IMO.

That's a really interesting observation I didn't pick up at first, that about 1/3 of the hands won't qualify to start with. I really appreciate you doing the calculation.

Is the progressive going to depend on multiple tables/properties to be attractive, then? What's the estimated/projected hit rate for any pay? 50:1 for the lowest is a nice amount. So 1 black chip at.a minimum.

Correction, sorry. $50 min pay, not 50:1

Quote: teliot

I get 1-in-957609 (note. 6-of-a-Kind can only occur with 0's, 2's, 5's, 6's and 7's). At a game pace of 40 rounds per hour, that's 23940 hours. With 2 linked tables open, that's about 11970 hours or once every 1.37 years. That is not going to be an attractive progressive, IMO.

What's the expected jackpot at 11970 hour? May be worth waiting.

Quote: UCivan

What's the expected jackpot at 11970 hour? May be worth waiting.

Would need to know the seed and increment to compute the point at which it becomes +EV.

The meter showed $2,000 on Wednesday. The vendor may not want to share the increment. Could we assume a contribution of 25%, 35% or 45% (or any number) respectively.

Quote: UCivan

The meter showed $2,000 on Wednesday. The vendor may not want to share the increment. Could we assume a contribution of 25%, 35% or 45% (or any number) respectively.

We could assume anything we like. I'll just assume you are joking and go about my business.

I thought this is called "sensitivity analysis". May be it's a joke to you, but seeing $2,000 is not a joke. Good job.

Quote: teliot

I get 1-in-957609 (note. 6-of-a-Kind can only occur with 0's, 2's, 5's, 6's and 7's). At a game pace of 40 rounds per hour, that's 23940 hours. With 2 linked tables open, that's about 11970 hours or once every 1.37 years. That is not going to be an attractive progressive, IMO.

Why would it be less attractive than the Fortune Pai Gow progressive, where the 100% is five times harder to hit?

Quote: Deucekies

Why would it be less attractive than the Fortune Pai Gow progressive, where the 100% is five times harder to hit?

+1, May be he can do great math, but he does not gamble. All gamblers know that when the hit rate is low, the meter will go up faster. Progressive players play to hit the HUGE jackpot, not to hit small jackpot often. I like the game. I wonder how soon the meter would go up to $50,000, $100,000 or more.

Quote: Deucekies

Why would it be less attractive than the Fortune Pai Gow progressive, where the 100% is five times harder to hit?

Players playing carnival games bet the progressive at a much higher percentage than baccarat and blackjack players. A baccarat progressive isn't going to increase fast enough to entice players to bet.

Most casinos average of a minimum of 65% participation on the progressive for games like Pai Gow, 3 Card, 4 card, etc. Blackjack and baccarat have historically been around 25% hence why none of them are popular. Just a different type of player.

Quote: RoyalBJ

+1, May be he can do great math, but he does not gamble.

I have no idea why people on this board say things that are wrong. But, this board seems to be infested with people spouting nonsense.

I was a player for a full decade. I made at least one trip to LV (and other gambling destinations) per month for many years. I also wrote a book about designing table games based on years of experience both as a player and as a consultant helping inventors to create viable games. Recently I played for 20 hours over 2 days as a secret shopper. I had to play every different game in the casino for a minimum of 30 minutes at two different casinos. That includes games like Pai Gow Tiles, Asia Poker and others.

Quote: RoyalBJ

All gamblers know ...

You, who are you to pretend to know things? I can hardly imagine a way to make a post that would ruin your credibility on the topic of casino table games in fewer words.

Along with the AP list that IBYA suggested, I think a list of those who state alternative facts would be welcome.

Quote: teliot

Along with the AP list that IBYA suggested, I think a list of those who state alternative facts would be welcome.

Agreed!!

Start with the guys selling pipe dreams. (DI, -EV VP, etc.)

Quote: teliot

I have no idea why people on this board say things that are wrong. But, this board seems to be infested with people spouting nonsense.

I was a player for a full decade.

Quote: Deucekies

Why would it be less attractive than the Fortune Pai Gow progressive, where the 100% is five times harder to hit?

teliot, Why don't you just answer Deucekies' question straight if you're a true expert?

Quote: RoyalBJ

teliot, Why don't you just answer Deucekies' question straight if you're a true expert?

LOL. I'll briefly answer your question because you obviously aren't knowledgeable enough to answer it for yourself.

FIRST, each player is dealt a separate hand that can win the bonus, so at a game pace of 30 hands per hour, that's 6x30 = 180 possible hits per hour. That already makes it more likely to hit, per table.

SECOND, the envy bonus pays if someone else hits a big prize, so the player gets a chance to win anytime anyone hits a big prize (not just the progressive). Again, making big prizes much more likely per player.

THIRD, the pay structure for FPGP is much richer, meaning that there are far more hands that can hit in the pay table.

FOURTH, it's a POKER side bet on a POKER game. The theme of the side bet makes sense for the game.

FIFTH, it's ubiquitous. Players see it everywhere and it has the full marketing power of SHFL behind it. Players are much more likely to play something that is familiar.

SIXTH, FPGP has no good competition. By contrast, there are already plenty of good baccarat side bets.

SEVENTH, The progressive part of FPGP costs $1, this bet is $2. This is the ONLY progressive I have ever seen that costs $2. "It's only a buck" is easy. Player's will resent $2.

etc.

You can't expect that if you choose some random meaningless event and create a progressive based on it, then that makes it a good game. That's just not how game development works. Six-of-a-kind has NOTHING to do with baccarat, and therefore will not be interesting to baccarat players.

I'm not going to waste any more time on this topic or on you. Thread blocked.

Quote: teliot

I'm not going to waste any more time on this topic or on you. Thread blocked.

Why did you BLOCK this thread, not wanting to spend more time on him?

You're a consultant / lecturer, aren't you? Showing off is a good deal, free press. He has just kindly given you the stage to shine.

PS. I disagree with your opinions, but I am no gaming consultant.

Quote: etablegames

Double 3 of a Kind ............................................................ $500 for $2

Would this count:?

Player: QQK
Banker: KKQ

Yes, it would. Here are more examples:

Banker vs Player
AA9 vs A99
ATT vs ATA

Quote: etablegames

Yes, it would. Here are more examples:

Banker vs Player
AA9 vs A99
ATT vs ATA

Thanks. I plan to check out it out tomorrow. There is also a field trial game there called Chinese War.

I just wrote up a new page on this side bet, so please check out my page on the:

Dragon Dragon Baccarat Progressive.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.

Quote: Wizard

I just wrote up a new page on this side bet, so please check out my page on the:

Dragon Dragon Baccarat Progressive.

As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.

Your page shows Copy Cat in many places.

10% jackpot (probability = 0.00007024, per WOO) was hit last week, for merely $240. Gold Coast should jack up the seed. Make it $5,000, so the 10% can be higher than Double 3-of-a-Kind..

The bet has dropped to $1. I saw good participation at Gold Coast.