Craps...The Don't Pass Line

To my understanding the Don't Pass Line is not a contract bet and may be pulled down at anytime. However, the software on Wizard of Odds website will not allow me to pull it down (obviously until the point is made or a 7 is rolled). Why is this?

For example. If I put $5 on the Don't Pass Line, dice are rolled and the point is set at 8. I want to place $5 on the Don't Come (to get a better number) and once I get a better number (say the 4), I want to take down my Don't Pass Line bet but it won't let me.

It probably wasn't programmed to allow you to make such an awful wager / decision.

That would be awful to pull it down? I'm just learning so I welcome any advice you may have.

Once the Don't bet "survives the come out roll," that is, it goes behind the point rolled, it is worth more than $5. If the point is 6 or 8, the bet has an Expected Value (EV) of $5.45. If the point is 5 or 9, the EV is $6, and if the point is 4 or 10, the EV jumps to $7.50.

So, by pulling the bet down after the point is established, you essentially throw away the $0.45, $1, or $2.50 (depending on the point) expected profit. You are correct in your understanding that you can pull down a Don't bet after the point is established if you want. In fact, it's not uncommon to see it done in a casino. But it is a financially bad move.

Oh, and welcome to the forums, Iso! Everything you need to know about craps/gambling can be found here or over at WoO.

I see. That makes sense. So what would be a safe, fun way to start at a table with a minimum ke $200?

Quote: Isotope13

I see. That makes sense.

The bigger lesson to take from this is that other players and the dealers make and suggest plays that actually are really bad - beware

so your choice is, believe those people or believe somebody on the internet - ouch! LOL

actually you can go to https://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/basics/ and learn a lot from a universally trusted source

Quote:

So what would be a safe, fun way to start at a table with a minimum ke $200?

I wouldn't play unless it was a $5 table. Even then you risk losing your bankroll with the ups and downs pretty quickly - play 2x odds at the most.

Others have explained why one should never ask the craps dealer to take down your Don't Pass (or Don't Come) bet after it survives the come-out roll. And I, for one, agree completely.

However, sometimes a player may want to play "differently" for some (good or bad) reason. Maybe the point is set at 8, and recently 8 has been hitting more than it should. Or, for any other reason that makes sense at the time. Hey, it's the gambler's $$, and the gambler takes the risk. Here is something I've seen:

Say, on a $5 table the player makes a $20 Don't Pass bet that sets to the 8, and s/he doesn't like that. So, the player makes a Don't Come bet for $20. If the dreaded 7 rolls, the player loses no money, since the Don't Pass bet wins $20 and the Don't Come bet loses $20. But, using your example, suppose the player's Don't Come bet sets to the (desired) 4.

Oh, what to do now with the unwanted Don't Pass bet on the 8? I have seen folks Place a bet of $18 on the 8. What happens now if the dreaded 8 hits? The Place bet wins $21 and the Don't Pass Bet loses $20, so the player wins $1. And, if the 7 rolls, the Don't Pass Bet wins $20 and the Place Bet loses $18, so the player wins $2.

There's no good way (as far as I know) to make this work at a live craps table betting only the minimum. And, mathematically, it's not as advantageous to the player as letting the Don't Pass bet stand by itself. But, if for some reason a player wants to "take down" a Don't Pass bet that sets to either the 6 or the 8, this allows an option that wins a little, regardless of the final outcome of the shooter's roll.

And, some electronic-bump craps games pay out partial dollar amounts, say, $5.85 when a player bets $5 on 6/8 instead of $6, which pays out at an even $7. Live craps tables only pay whole dollar amounts. In this setting, a player could construct a Place bet for less $$ that would work in the same fashion, but with less $$ on the table.

So, if you understand what RS and Joe 'splained to you, but you're still looking for options, perhaps this will give you something to think about. And, you can try it out on the craps simulator for free, right?

Wow.. Great explanation. Thank you. It almost seams like it would be best to just let it ride out and take the win on the hit versus trying to hedge the bet. As a beginner like myself, I just wanted to develop a safe fun strategy that wouldn't cost me my whole bankroll as I learn and get better. I'm not looking to win tons but don't want to lose tons in the first few minutes at the table. Also, for some strange reason, I seem to enjoy playing the dark side better (at least on simulation). But I doubt it would make for a great experience at a live table because everyone else will most likely be better the other way.

What are your thoughts and experience playing positively or negatively? Which do you prefer?

As always, I appreciate all comments and suggestions.

Well...

You are correct that most folks bet the Do and shun those who bet the Don't. A tough skin and an introvert personality help if you want to play the Don't. And, as you are probably aware, the Don't bet has the lowest House Advantage.

I knew a Don't player who was outgoing and friendly, to the point where it was (a little) hard to shovel scorn on him. He would say, "I know what you're feeling, but I just think this works better for me," all with a big smile on his face. And, he wouldn't stay long. He would win, or he would lose. And, after 1 or 2 shooters, he would grab his chips (he always arrived with chips, apparently between other games or on his way to the cashier) and disappear.

As for myself, I don't play craps at the table much these days. But, when I did, I tried to go with the flow and embrace the energy. If no shooter lasted much past 3 rolls before sevening out, I would bet the Don't. If things were really "cooking," I'd be betting with the shooter and trying to help keep the positive energy flowing.

I hope this helps. Good luck, and welcome to this crazy corner of the gaming world. (Please try not to take it too personal if someone dumps on you. It shouldn't happen, but sometimes it does.)

Quote: LuckyPhow

Oh, what to do now with the unwanted Don't Pass bet on the 8?

Sell it to me! If I thought I could find somebody who would do that for a few hours each time I went to a casino, you'd never get me to come home!

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I have seen folks Place a bet of $18 on the 8. What happens now if the dreaded 8 hits? The Place bet wins $21 and the Don't Pass Bet loses $20, so the player wins $1. And, if the 7 rolls, the Don't Pass Bet wins $20 and the Place Bet loses $18, so the player wins $2.

but I never see this myself. they always call out "no action!". And, as you say, this arbitrage move is not as good anyway.

To anyone who doesn't want the action, I always feel like asking them this: "Clearly you consider yourself unlucky, to turn this down now that the odds are in your favor. What business does an unlucky person have being in a casino?"

Quote: Isotope13

Wow.. Great explanation. Thank you. It almost seams like it would be best to just let it ride out and take the win on the hit versus trying to hedge the bet. As a beginner like myself, I just wanted to develop a safe fun strategy that wouldn't cost me my whole bankroll as I learn and get better. I'm not looking to win tons but don't want to lose tons in the first few minutes at the table. Also, for some strange reason, I seem to enjoy playing the dark side better (at least on simulation). But I doubt it would make for a great experience at a live table because everyone else will most likely be better the other way.

What are your thoughts and experience playing positively or negatively? Which do you prefer?

As always, I appreciate all comments and suggestions.

IMO -- if I play craps, I prefer the dark side. Having the point established, you're the favorite, what's more fun than that? I also find most craps players to be pretty damn annoying, and since they're playing on the passline, I enjoy playing 'against' them.


Yes -- once your dark-side wager is on an established point and you're rooting for the 7 and against that number (ie: the 8), you should let it stay, since you have some good value. If you absolutely must insist on taking it down, for whatever reason, then you'd be better off to make an opposing bet to it (ie: $20 don't-bet against the 8, just bet $18 on the 8, to either win $1 or $2....better than breaking even).


If you want to have fun and root with the table, then probably just play the pass-line, as that's what people are betting most of the time. Although, sometimes everyone at the table bets the don'ts.....and I think that's the most fun, and in my experience, everyone was having a good time, win or lose. As opposed to everyone on the pass-line, with a 7-out, people can tend to get angry.

Quote: Isotope13

Wow.. Great explanation. Thank you. It almost seams like it would be best to just let it ride out and take the win on the hit versus trying to hedge the bet. As a beginner like myself, I just wanted to develop a safe fun strategy that wouldn't cost me my whole bankroll as I learn and get better. I'm not looking to win tons but don't want to lose tons ...

Hmmmm. What's wrong with this picture?

Quote: Isotope13

Wow.. Great explanation. Thank you. It almost seams like it would be best to just let it ride out and take the win on the hit versus trying to hedge the bet. As a beginner like myself, I just wanted to develop a safe fun strategy that wouldn't cost me my whole bankroll as I learn and get better. I'm not looking to win tons but don't want to lose tons in the first few minutes at the table. Also, for some strange reason, I seem to enjoy playing the dark side better (at least on simulation). But I doubt it would make for a great experience at a live table because everyone else will most likely be better the other way.

What are your thoughts and experience playing positively or negatively? Which do you prefer?

As always, I appreciate all comments and suggestions.

1. There is no such thing as a table being "hot" or "cold," in the sense that there is no mystical magical force acting upon the table to make it more likely that the players will win or lose. Each and every roll is absolutely independent of each and every other roll. We, with our primate brains, are predisposed to try to link together outcomes. That doesn't work with dice games. So betting the Don't just because the last five shooters have sevened out carries the exact same disadvantage as betting the Don't when the shooter has made five points in a row. It's VERY, VERY tempting to think otherwise. But you lose that 1.4% every. Single, Time. You make that bet. Regardless of what has just happened at the table.

2. Every bet is independent of every other bet, in the sense that one bet does not affect the likelihood of another bet winning or losing. Therefor, you cannot "improve" Bet A by making Bet B. In fact, you will make your overall situation worse, the more bets you make, with the exception of odds bets (which won't make any difference either way in the long run). So "hedging" doesn't work.

3. The only way to optimize your bankroll is to make bets with the lowest house edge possible, and to not overbet your bankroll. You don't play craps for profit; you play it for fun. Therefore, you want to last as long as you can. The more bets you make that have house edges, the less time before you go broke. The bigger your bets, the greater the risk that a bad run will wipe you out.

So for a $200 bankroll, I would seek out a $5 table, and take double odds when the point was established. That way, a substantial portion of your action will be on bets with no house edge. You could still get blown away by a losing streak, but that's gambling.