y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 23rd, 2016 at 8:04:20 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Game website says 1.60% HE. m


Nearly a full percent better than standard PGP right?
miplet
miplet
Joined: Dec 1, 2009
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September 23rd, 2016 at 8:20:56 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

Game website says 1.60% HE. 7 Up Pai Gow

That's with no commission, so it's higher if they are charging a 5% winning commission.
Joeshlabotnik
Joeshlabotnik
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
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September 23rd, 2016 at 8:25:48 PM permalink
Let's cut to the chase. Consider the likelihood of the following statements all being true:

1. A casino game exists that has an inherent house edge for the player.
2. The player can realize that house edge with only basic knowledge of the game, and no advanced strategy.
3. The casino, nonetheless, offers that game to the public.

Contrast that with the likelihood of the following statement being true:

1. The person who sent you that email actually is a desperate Nigerian prince who badly needs your assistance in recovering his $5 million fortune, and has identified you as the only one who can help him.

This statement is more likely to be true than the three statements above all being true.

I think you're overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand. You're also underestimating the effect of the A-high dealer pai gow push. That hand happens a LOT. Just to contrast, there's a variant where all dealer Q-high pai gows are pushes, and that's enough addition to the house edge that the house no longer needs to charge a 5% commission.

This reminds me very much of face-up 21, which seemed like a "how can I lose?" game to a lot of players when it first came up, or some of those other BJ variants where a dealer 22 is a push. Change one category of dealer losses to ties, and that balances out even a very substantial player advantage.
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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September 23rd, 2016 at 9:45:56 PM permalink
Quote: miplet

Quote: Paradigm

Game website says 1.60% HE. 7 Up Pai Gow

That's with no commission, so it's higher if they are charging a 5% winning commission.


Agree Mips...the game website says No Commission, but I see the OP says Thunder Valley is charging a commission.
Attempting to add value one post at a time
gordonm888
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
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September 23rd, 2016 at 10:36:03 PM permalink
Quote: Joeshlabotnik


I think you're overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand. You're also underestimating the effect of the A-high dealer pai gow push. That hand happens a LOT. Just to contrast, there's a variant where all dealer Q-high pai gows are pushes, and that's enough addition to the house edge that the house no longer needs to charge a 5% commission.



Um . . if you scroll up to the first page of this thread you will see that I posted that an Ace-high pai gow has a frequency of 9.4% and estimated that an automatic push on a dealer A-high pai gow adds about 5% to the house edge - based on mathematics.

And, one of the other posters on this thread is the designer of the face-up version of Pai-Gow that you refer to - it's called EZ Pai-Gow where all Q-High pai gows are a push.

So, we're not the know-nothing idiots you take us for.

You are probably right, though, that some posters are overestimating the benefit to the player of being able to see the dealer's hand.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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September 24th, 2016 at 5:13:56 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's a lot; many two pair hands such as Kx/5522x can be played for a win or a saving push, In fact just about any hand two pairs or better can be helped. 67% of the hands are one pair or less, which can only be played one way, but over 33% of the hands are multi-path hands with two or more reasonable settings that are help by seeing the dealer's set..



Incorrect. "that are help" needs to be changed to "may be helped". Well more than 50% of the time you will not change your hand from the basic strategy, that's why it's the basic strategy! I would surmise that the lack of beating the ace high pai gows costs more EV than the number of times you would change a hand from basic strategy would add EV. It is possible a casino would have allowed this game on the floor without someone doing the math to back it up, but I doubt it?
Every time I have an 'iffy' hand, and am not sure what to do, I make a note of it. The great majority of the time I end up saying... "As usual it didn't matter". But this is a (very complex) math problem. I'm hoping one of our gurus (Wizard, Crystal Math, MathExtremist, Mustang Sally) can solve this problem.

Edit- I see the link to the website shows a house edge of 1.4%, so someone did the math. Weather they did it correctly.....
mrsuit31
mrsuit31
Joined: May 29, 2010
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September 24th, 2016 at 5:29:42 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

And, one of the other posters on this thread is the designer of the face-up version of Pai-Gow that you refer to - it's called EZ Pai-Gow where all Q-High pai gows are a push.



Just to clarify, EZ Pai Gow isn't face up. Dan stated that his company owns the mechanism where any dealer pai gow hand results in a push for the hand...

Quote: Paigowdan

Just a note on this: the use of a dealer's pai gow hand (any Pai Gow Hand) to push for a house edge mechanism is owed by Lubin-Jones LLC, on games distributed by Shuffle Master, even if mixed with additional game gimmicks or mechanisms. No biggie, but they should have checked/vetted the concept first.

.
y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 24th, 2016 at 5:37:50 AM permalink
So I went back and got stuck $4500 pretty quick. Spent the next 6-7 hours booking a $141 win



Ran into less than 10 dealer ace-high's. Would have normally lost 2 of those. I didn't keep count of bow many I would have normally won, but pretty sure more than 2.

I'd play it again, over any other PGP variation. Seats were hard to come by, during prime time.
Last edited by: y2d2 on Sep 24, 2016
y2d2
y2d2
Joined: Jul 10, 2012
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September 24th, 2016 at 7:03:27 AM permalink
Was just told Thunder Valley is the only casino anywhere that has this game. On month #2 or 3 of a 3-month trial for ShuffleMaster.
Wizardofnothing
Wizardofnothing
Joined: Jul 3, 2015
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September 24th, 2016 at 7:15:41 AM permalink
Imagine how awesome this would be if it were tiles
NOW HIRING!!!! REQUEST INFO VIA PM

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